IMPORTANT! Can a Christian lose their Salvation?

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W Jay Schroeder said:
A gift given can be given back. Read Hebrews 6:4-6, and also Hebrews 12:16-17 about Esau. These would to me suggest strongly that you can.

Hebrews 6:4-8 presents the case of Jewish professed believers who halt short of faith in Christ after advancing to the very threshold of salvation, even "going along with" the Holy Spirit in His work of enlightenment and conviction. John 16:8-10. It is not said that they had faith. This supposed person is like the spies at Kadesh-barnea Deuteronomy 1:19-26 who saw the land and had the very fruit of it in their hands, and yet turned back.

See also: http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GenevaStudyBible/gen.cgi?book=heb&chapter=006

Darby writes: http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.asp?ViewCommentary=Hebrews+6&Version=DRBY
Matthew Henry writes:

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=heb+6:1-8
Verses 1-8 We have here the apostle’s advice to the Hebrews—that they would grow up from a state of childhood to the fullness of the stature of the new man in Christ. He declares his readiness to assist them all he could in their spiritual progress; and, for their greater encouragement, he puts himself with them: Let us go on. Here observe, In order to their growth, Christians must leave the principles of the doctrine of Christ. How must they leave them? They must not lose them, they must not despise them, they must not forget them. They must lay them up in their hearts, and lay them as the foundation of all their profession and expectation; but they must not rest and stay in them, they must not be always laying the foundation, they must go on, and build upon it. There must be a superstructure; for the foundation is laid on purpose to support the building. Here it may be enquired, Why did the apostle resolve to set strong meat before the Hebrews, when he knew they were but babes? Answer. 1. Though some of them were but weak, yet others of them had gained more strength; and they must be provided for suitably. And, as those who are grown Christians must be willing to hear the plainest truths preached for the sake of the weak, so the weak must be willing to hear the more difficult and mysterious truths preached for the sake of those who are strong. 2. He hoped they would be growing in their spiritual strength and stature, and so be able to digest stronger meat. I. The apostle mentions several foundation-principles, which must be well laid at first, and then built upon; neither his time nor theirs must be spent in laying these foundations over and over again. These foundations are six:—1. Repentance from dead works, that is, conversion and regeneration, repentance from a spiritually dead state and course; as if he had said, "Beware of destroying the life of grace in your souls; your minds were changed by conversion, and so were your lives. Take care that you return not to sin again, for then you must have the foundation to lay again; there must be a second conversion a repenting not only of, but from, dead works.’’ Observe here, (1.) The sins of persons unconverted are dead works; they proceed from persons spiritually dead, and they tend to death eternal. (2.) Repentance for dead works, if it be right, is repentance from dead works, a universal change of heart and life. (3.) Repentance for and from dead works is a foundation-principle, which must not be laid again, though we must renew our repentance daily. 2. Faith towards God, a firm belief of the existence of God, of his nature, attributes, and perfections, the trinity of persons in the unity of essence, the whole mind and will of God as revealed in his word, particularly what relates to the Lord Jesus Christ. We must by faith acquaint ourselves with these things; we must assent to them, we must approve of them, and apply all to ourselves with suitable affections and actions. Observe, (1.) Repentance from dead works, and faith towards God, are connected, and always go together; they are inseparable twins, the one cannot live without the other. (2.) Both of these are foundation-principles, which should be once well laid, but never pulled up, so as to need to be laid over again; we must not relapse into infidelity. 3. The doctrine of baptisms, that is, of being baptized by a minister of Christ with water, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, as the initiating sign or seal of the covenant of grace, strongly engaging the person so baptized to get acquainted with the new covenant, to adhere to it, and prepare to renew it at the table of the Lord and sincerely to regulate himself according to it, relying upon the truth and faithfulness of God for the blessings contained in it. And the doctrine of an inward baptism, that of the Spirit sprinkling the blood of Christ upon the soul, for justification, and the graces of the Spirit for sanctification. This ordinance of baptism is a foundation to be rightly laid, and daily remembered, but not repeated. 4. Laying on of hands, on persons passing solemnly from their initiated state by baptism to the confirmed state, by returning the answer of a good conscience towards God, and sitting down at the Lord’s table. This passing from incomplete to complete church membership was performed by laying on of hands, which was extraordinary conveyance of the gift of the Holy Ghost continued. This, once done, all are obliged to abide by, and not to need another solemn admission, as at first, but to go on, and grow up, in Christ. Or by this may be meant ordination of persons to the ministerial office, who are duly qualified for it and inclined to it; and this by fasting and prayer, with laying on of the hands of the presbytery: and this is to be done but once. 5. The resurrection of the dead, that is, of dead bodies; and their re-union with their souls, to be eternal companions together in weal or woe, according as their state was towards God when they died, and the course of life they led in this world. 6. Eternal judgment, determining the soul of every one, when it leaves the body at death, and both soul and body at the last day, to their eternal state, every one to his proper society and employment to which they were entitled and fitted here on earth; the wicked to everlasting punishment, the righteous to life eternal. These are the great foundation-principles which ministers should clearly and convincingly unfold, and closely apply. In these the people should be well instructed and established, and from these they must never depart; without these, the other parts of religion have no foundation to support them. II. The apostle declares his readiness and resolution to assist the Hebrews in building themselves up on these foundations till they arrive at perfection: And this we will do, if God permit, v. 3. And thereby he teaches them, 1. That right resolution is very necessary in order to progress and proficiency in religion. 2. That that resolution is right which is not only made in the sincerity of our hearts, but in a humble dependence upon God for strength, for assistance and righteousness, for acceptance, and for time and opportunity. 3. That ministers should not only teach people what to do, but go before them, and along with them, in the way of duty. III. He shows that this spiritual growth is the surest way to prevent that dreadful sin of apostasy from the faith. And here, 1. He shows how far persons may go in religion, and, after all, fall away, and perish for ever, v. 4, 5. (1.) They may be enlightened. Some of the ancients understand this of their being baptized; but it is rather to be understood of notional knowledge and common illumination, of which persons may have a great deal, and yet come short of heaven. Balaam was the man whose eyes were opened (Num. 24:3), and yet with his eyes opened he went down to utter darkness. (2.) They may taste of the heavenly gift, feel something of the efficacy of the Holy Spirit in his operations upon their souls, causing them to taste something of religion, and yet be like persons in the market, who taste of what they will not come up to the price of, and so but take a taste, and leave it. Persons may taste religion, and seem to like it, if they could have it upon easier terms than denying themselves, and taking up their cross, and following Christ. (3.) They may be made partakers of the Holy Ghost, that is, of his extraordinary and miraculous gifts; they may have cast out devils in the name of Christ, and done many other mighty works. Such gifts in the apostolic age were sometimes bestowed upon those who had no true saving grace. (4.) They may taste of the good word of God; they may have some relish of gospel doctrines, may hear the word with pleasure, may remember much of it, and talk well of it, and yet never be cast into the form and mould of it, nor have it dwelling richly in them. (5.) They may have tasted of the powers of the world to come; they may have been under strong impressions concerning heaven, and dread of going to hell. These lengths hypocrites may go, and, after all, turn apostates. Now hence observe, [1.] These great things are spoken here of those who may fall away; yet it is not here said of them that they were truly converted, or that they were justified; there is more in true saving grace than in all that is here said of apostates. [2.] This therefore is no proof of the final apostasy of true saints. These indeed may fall frequently and foully, but yet they will not totally nor finally from God; the purpose and the power of God, the purchase and the prayer of Christ, the promise of the gospel, the everlasting covenant that God has made with them, ordered in all things and sure, the indwelling of the Spirit, and the immortal seed of the word, these are their security. But the tree that has not these roots will not stand. 2. The apostle describes the dreadful case of such as fall away after having gone so far in the profession of the religion. (1.) The greatness of the sin of apostasy. It is crucifying the Son of God afresh, and putting him to open shame. They declare that they approve of what the Jews did in crucifying Christ, and that they would be glad to do the same thing again if it were in their power. They pour the greatest contempt upon the Son of God, and therefore upon God himself, who expects all should reverence his Son, and honour him as they honour the Father. They do what in them lies to represent Christ and Christianity as a shameful thing, and would have him to be a public shame and reproach. This is the nature of apostasy. (2.) The great misery of apostates. [1.] It is impossible to renew them again unto repentance. It is extremely hazardous. Very few instances can be given of those who have gone so far and fallen away, and yet ever have been brought to true repentance, such a repentance as is indeed a renovation of the soul. Some have thought this is the sin against the Holy Ghost, but without ground. The sin here mentioned is plainly apostasy both from the truth and the ways of Christ. God can renew them to repentance, but he seldom does it; and with men themselves it is impossible. [2.] Their misery is exemplified by a proper similitude, taken from the ground that after much cultivation brings forth nothing but briers and thorns; and therefore is nigh unto cursing, and its end is to be burned, v. 8. To give this the greater force here is observed the difference that there is between the good ground and the bad, that these contraries, being set one over against the other, illustrate each other. First Here is a description of the good ground: It drinketh in the rain that cometh often upon it. Believers do not only taste of the word of God, but they drink it in; and this good ground bringeth forth fruit answerable to the cost laid out, for the honour of Christ and the comfort of his faithful ministers, who are, under Christ, dressers of the ground. And this fruit-field or garden receives the blessing. God declares fruitful Christians blessed, and all wise and good men account them blessed: they are blessed with increase of grace, and with further establishment and glory at last. Secondly, Here is the different case of the bad ground: It bears briers and thorns; it is not only barren of good fruit, but fruitful in that which is bad, briers and thorns, fruitful in sin and wickedness, which are troublesome and hurtful to all about them, and will be most so to sinners themselves at last; and then such ground is rejected. God will concern himself no more about such wicked apostates; he will let them alone, and cast them out of his care; he will command the clouds that they rain no more upon them. Divine influences shall be restrained; and that is not all, but such ground is nigh unto cursing; so far is it from receiving the blessing, that a dreadful curse hangs over it, though as yet, through the patience of God, the curse is not fully executed. Lastly, Its end is to be burned. Apostasy will be punished with everlasting burnings, the fire that shall never be quenched. This is the sad end to which apostasy leads, and therefore Christians should go on and grow in grace, lest, if they do not go forward, they should go backward, till they bring matters to this woeful extremity of sin and misery.
 
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SPALATIN

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rugerfann said:
Nope.I'm claim Christ Jesus paid for all my sin and has taken them away.





James was written it gnostic that infiltrated the church.One often makes this mistake.Either christ forgave all your sins at the cross or your still in all your sins.Choice is your what you want to believe.

How can he take sin that you haven't committed yet away? He can certainly forgive you after you have repented of them, but he doesn't remove the ability of the sinner to sin. He empowers the sinner to resist temptation, but sometimes the temptation seems overwhelming and gets the better of us. You seem to contradict yourself when you say that he has removed your sin. He has only removed that for which you have been forgiven.
 
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rugerfann

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SLStrohkirch said:
How can he take sin that you haven't committed yet away?

Christ Jesus paid and took away all sin at the cross,past,present ,future.Remember God doesn't live inside of time like we do.He knows all every single sin the world whould comit.

He can certainly forgive you after you have repented of them, but he doesn't remove the ability of the sinner to sin.

Nope I was forgiven for ALL my sins since the day I was born.This is why Christ Jesus said it is finished at the cross,he no longer dealing with sin today.The onlt sin that remains is the sin of unbelief in him,that Christ said whould remain.One only needs to repent of his unbeleif in Jesus.

He empowers the sinner to resist temptation, but sometimes the temptation seems overwhelming and gets the better of us. You seem to contradict yourself when you say that he has removed your sin. He has only removed that for which you have been forgiven.

Nope,he has removed ALL sin.If he didn't no one has eternal Life(salvation).
 
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InnerPhyre

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hebrews 10:26-2926 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, hebrews 10:26-2927 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.




We are fallen creatures who fall into sin, but if we knowlingly DECIDE to sin, we not only reject God's saving grace, but we crucify the Lord all over again. We know the pain He endured for our sins, so when we sin on purpose (I know this is wrong...I know the Lord doesn't want me to do it....I know this sin would cause Him pain, but I'm going to do it anyway) we spit in the face of God and on the sacrifice He made for us.
 
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rugerfann

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InnerPhyre said:
hebrews 10:26-2926 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, hebrews 10:26-2927 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.




We are fallen creatures who fall into sin, but if we knowlingly DECIDE to sin, we not only reject God's saving grace, but we crucify the Lord all over again. We know the pain He endured for our sins, so when we sin on purpose (I know this is wrong...I know the Lord doesn't want me to do it....I know this sin would cause Him pain, but I'm going to do it anyway) we spit in the face of God and on the sacrifice He made for us.

You sin everday bro!
 
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InnerPhyre

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rugerfann said:
You sin everday bro!


That's not in dispute, my friend. Please read what I said again. We're talking about willful sin. We're not talking about sinning and then looking back and realizing what you did was wrong. We're talking about knowing what you are about to do is wrong in advance and doing it anyway. That's the rejection of grace.
 
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W Jay Schroeder

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He says " who have shared in the Holy Spirit", This would stronglysuggest that they were saved. you do not share in the Holy Spirit if you are not saved. You cant fall away if you were never there to begin with. This idea of being close to salvation is silly. you are or you are not. doesnt matter how close you are. Being convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit is not close to sharing in its goodness as stated. Also were do you fit in Hebrews mention of Esau 12:17. he had the inheritance and gave it up. this inheritance is now us in Christ, so to give it up is the same thing as what happened to Esau.
 
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rugerfann

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InnerPhyre said:
That's not in dispute, my friend. Please read what I said again. We're talking about willful sin. We're not talking about sinning and then looking back and realizing what you did was wrong. We're talking about knowing what you are about to do is wrong in advance and doing it anyway. That's the rejection of grace.

We always know what we did was wronge.When you worry do you know it is sin?Yes.Is it then willfull?Yep
 
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rugerfann

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W Jay Schroeder said:
He says " who have shared in the Holy Spirit", This would stronglysuggest that they were saved. you do not share in the Holy Spirit if you are not saved. You cant fall away if you were never there to begin with. This idea of being close to salvation is silly. you are or you are not. doesnt matter how close you are. Being convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit is not close to sharing in its goodness as stated. Also were do you fit in Hebrews mention of Esau 12:17. he had the inheritance and gave it up. this inheritance is now us in Christ, so to give it up is the same thing as what happened to Esau.

Greek please,the translations in english arn't always the best.The greek shared may mean differant than our shared.The same is true for the greek (IF) doesnt mean the same as our if.
 
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xenia

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rugerfann said:
Greek please,the translations in english arn't always the best.The greek shared may mean differant than our shared.The same is true for the greek (IF) doesnt mean the same as our if.

Are you a Greek scholar?
 
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night2day

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graysparrow said:
Philosophy has enriched the christian thought, but sometimes has tainted it. One of the major philosopher is - as most of you know - Plato who, based on orphism, postulated that the soul had to work in order to detach from a corrupt body.

However, I'm not certain how this has to do with Christianity. After the Fall into sin the entirety of creation was corrupted and placed under it's curse. Our souls as well. Would not change the situation if there was an attempt to combine some kind of gnostic thought into the matter.

This has influenced an idea of body = evil and hence sex = wrong, that is still floating in the mind of many christians. (There is some wrong sex of course as inappropriate contentography, abuse and the like).

Even though God Himself was the one who created sex for a certain time and place between a man and woman, known as marriage. (Genesis 2) So nothing wrong with it. It's how it's also been abused and corrupted by sin.

Works don't save and it's a heresy (even for catholics) to say that, but neither an empty faith in Christ.

I must ask you to clarify an "empty faith". Since every general faith has its object. Furthermore, only God knows the person's heart to truly say whether saving faith in Christ has been lost or there's still faith left. There's alot of times when Christians cannot discern this unless the person says as much themselves and renounces the faith.

To have faith in Christ is more than believing he's real and God but - and this is decisive - to lean on him, to accept his message and direct ALL your life to Him. Such a faith - when perfect - can only produce good works.

True, even the demons believe that God is real. But they certainly don't have faith in Him.

Where we differ on matters of saving faith it appears is just Who is responsible for it. We are dead in sin and enemies of God. We are conceived into this world this way because of this world's fallen nature. We cannot respond to God's calling any more than a corpse can freely lift it's hand. It's the Holy Spirit working within the heart by the power of the gospel who brings a person to faith in Jesus Christ.

Also, it is He that helps sustain us within that faith. And it is He who helps us return in repentance and faith after we have fallen which...is something we will often do as long as we're here on Earth. It's a process which ends at death when we are made completely made free of sin and enter into Heaven solely based on what Jesus Christ has done for us..

But helping us grow to do God's will has nothing to do with where our salvation stands. These two areas aren't able to be mixed as one.
 
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dvlbstr

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Praying for physical healing? Or "God's will be done"? God doesn't always choose to physically heal as he told the Apostle Paul. (2 Corinthians 12:9)


Whether or not God heals the person is not our part, and is not the point. The point is, if you believe, you put that belief into action by praying for the person, the rest is God's part.

Blessings!
 
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dvlbstr

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Quote:
quot-top-right.gif
quot-by-left.gif
Originally Posted by: dvlbstr
quot-top-right-10.gif
Show me a passage of scripture that says salvation is unconditional.
quot-bot-left.gif



It whould be a waste of my time.Becuase you dont believe Chrsit Jesus life in a person is salvation.

If you did believe this then you whouldnt believe Christ jesus took away and paid for all sin at the cross.So going further than this whould be pointless untill you acept these as true first.


First, notice that rugarfan backpedals the issue, because he knows that he has to.

Second, notice that really the only one on this topic that stands for OSAS is rugarfan, kind of tells us something, doesn't it?

Third, out of all the others posting on this board that has seen this post, no one else could come up with a passage of scripture that state salvation is unconditional. This also should tell rugarfan something, but again, it goes over his head.

If there was a passage that makes such a statement in his mind, we would all know that rugarfan is misinterpreting that passage, as he has already demonstrated by misinterpreting many a passage herein. Many on this board can testify that I have repeatedly admonished rugarfan to seek out some help in hermeneutical study of the scriptures, and he has systematically turned away from such counsel.

Provrbs says that in many counselors there is found wisdom...rugarfan refuses that wisdom...that Godly wisdom. The simple fact is that there is no passage of scripture that says salvation is unconditional, the ONLY thing that we see as being unconditional is God's love. Rugarfan, along with Bob George, make the same error of assuming that God's love is unconditional, so salvation must also be unconditional - NOT SO!!!

Salvation has been attained by Christ's sacrifice on the cross, period.
Sin has been dealt with in every man's life, those saved and otherwise, so according to rugarfan's wisdom, all men are already saved. Do we see this theory in action in reality? No, we do not, just like we do not see evolutionary theory in action in reality - both are lies and illusionary statements masquerading as truth.

Salvation has been attained, but it is not unconditional - IT MOST CERTAINLY IS CONDITIONAL UPON ONE'S OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST, AND NOT TO THE LAW AS SOME CONFUSE IT AS SO.

I started this thread and I am pleased with the results...with the discussion that it has brought out, one stone sharpening another. Have fun, I'm outta here!

Blessings to all!
 
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night2day

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dvlbstr said:
Whether or not God heals the person is not our part, and is not the point.

Didn't say it was. :)

The point is, if you believe, you put that belief into action by praying for the person, the rest is God's part.

Hense, "God's will be done." He knows what we need far better than we do.
 
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rugerfann

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dvlbstr said:
Quote:
quot-top-right.gif
quot-by-left.gif
Originally Posted by: dvlbstr
quot-top-right-10.gif
Show me a passage of scripture that says salvation is unconditional.
quot-bot-left.gif






First, notice that rugarfan backpedals the issue, because he knows that he has to.

Second, notice that really the only one on this topic that stands for OSAS is rugarfan, kind of tells us something, doesn't it?

Third, out of all the others posting on this board that has seen this post, no one else could come up with a passage of scripture that state salvation is unconditional. This also should tell rugarfan something, but again, it goes over his head.

If there was a passage that makes such a statement in his mind, we would all know that rugarfan is misinterpreting that passage, as he has already demonstrated by misinterpreting many a passage herein. Many on this board can testify that I have repeatedly admonished rugarfan to seek out some help in hermeneutical study of the scriptures, and he has systematically turned away from such counsel.

Provrbs says that in many counselors there is found wisdom...rugarfan refuses that wisdom...that Godly wisdom. The simple fact is that there is no passage of scripture that says salvation is unconditional, the ONLY thing that we see as being unconditional is God's love. Rugarfan, along with Bob George, make the same error of assuming that God's love is unconditional, so salvation must also be unconditional - NOT SO!!!

Salvation has been attained by Christ's sacrifice on the cross, period.
Sin has been dealt with in every man's life, those saved and otherwise, so according to rugarfan's wisdom, all men are already saved. Do we see this theory in action in reality? No, we do not, just like we do not see evolutionary theory in action in reality - both are lies and illusionary statements masquerading as truth.

Salvation has been attained, but it is not unconditional - IT MOST CERTAINLY IS CONDITIONAL UPON ONE'S OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST, AND NOT TO THE LAW AS SOME CONFUSE IT AS SO.

I started this thread and I am pleased with the results...with the discussion that it has brought out, one stone sharpening another. Have fun, I'm outta here!

Blessings to all!

This is what the Pharisees teach.Truely sad you believe in phariseeism but not Grace!SELFRIGHTEOUSNESS IS AT YOUR DOOR!
 
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Jon_

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dvlbstr said:
Quote:
quot-top-right.gif
quot-by-left.gif
Originally Posted by: dvlbstr
quot-top-right-10.gif
Show me a passage of scripture that says salvation is unconditional.
quot-bot-left.gif






First, notice that rugarfan backpedals the issue, because he knows that he has to.

Second, notice that really the only one on this topic that stands for OSAS is rugarfan, kind of tells us something, doesn't it?

Third, out of all the others posting on this board that has seen this post, no one else could come up with a passage of scripture that state salvation is unconditional. This also should tell rugarfan something, but again, it goes over his head.

If there was a passage that makes such a statement in his mind, we would all know that rugarfan is misinterpreting that passage, as he has already demonstrated by misinterpreting many a passage herein. Many on this board can testify that I have repeatedly admonished rugarfan to seek out some help in hermeneutical study of the scriptures, and he has systematically turned away from such counsel.

Provrbs says that in many counselors there is found wisdom...rugarfan refuses that wisdom...that Godly wisdom. The simple fact is that there is no passage of scripture that says salvation is unconditional, the ONLY thing that we see as being unconditional is God's love. Rugarfan, along with Bob George, make the same error of assuming that God's love is unconditional, so salvation must also be unconditional - NOT SO!!!

Salvation has been attained by Christ's sacrifice on the cross, period.
Sin has been dealt with in every man's life, those saved and otherwise, so according to rugarfan's wisdom, all men are already saved. Do we see this theory in action in reality? No, we do not, just like we do not see evolutionary theory in action in reality - both are lies and illusionary statements masquerading as truth.

Salvation has been attained, but it is not unconditional - IT MOST CERTAINLY IS CONDITIONAL UPON ONE'S OBEDIENCE TO CHRIST, AND NOT TO THE LAW AS SOME CONFUSE IT AS SO.

I started this thread and I am pleased with the results...with the discussion that it has brought out, one stone sharpening another. Have fun, I'm outta here!

Blessings to all!

I'm a five-point Calvinist, but I refuse to argue with one such as you because your pride surely stifles your reason. Until you can set aside the pursuit to be right for the pursuit for spiritual truth, I will not debate this issue with you.
 
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