Futurists vs Preterists

It is just simply not true that futurists are being attacked.

For the most part here, we have evangelicals talking to evangelicals. We have two different views on bible prophecy being exchanged.

From my experience, pre-trib rapturists are always "being attacked" whenever a post trib person or an amillennialists comes along and shares his/her views. C'mon. We can respect each other and honor each other better than that.

Personally, I have rarely posted on a thread that wasn't started by some futurist who was asking preterists for their views.

Perhaps if a futurist wants an "exclusive thread" started where they only talk to like-minded rapturists they could use the "IGNORE" button or state that they do not want opposing opinions -- i.e., state that in the opening post.

However, if that is NOT declared then why shouldn't a preterist give his or her opinion on why there is no literal 1000 years (the mainstream Christian view for 20 centuries)? Why shouldn't a preterist discuss a thread on "The Mark" which has been everthing from the stamp act of the 1700s to the bar codes on cereal boxes to the id chip? Why shouldn't a preterist suggest that the great tribulation is past, which is a view held by the Catholic Church, the Reformers, and even John Wesley and F.F. Bruce???

actually i am quoting in context GW

one redemption(redemption from sin) was a present reality for believers pre 70ad. scripture is clear on this

Romans 3:22-26
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they ARE justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus , whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he HAD passed over former sins ; it was to prove at the PRESENT time that he himself is righteous AND that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus

Ephesians 1:6-8
to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses , according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us.

Galatians 3:13
Christ REDEEMED us from the curse of the law , having become a curse for us --for it is written, "Cursed be every one who hangs on a tree" --

i have this redemption they had pre70ad

GW: I would like your opinion. Would you hit on my thread "The Mark?" AND GIVE IT YOUR BEST SHOT.


Your Friend in Christ
LOVE

hey GW,

have you realized anything more than "one" is plural?

for example: "two years"...plural(more than one)

Originally posted by The Messenger
hey GW,

have you realized anything more than "one" is plural?

for example: "two years"...plural(more than one)

Click to expand...

chili-oi = "thousands"

it is not limited to "thousand" as in the number "1000"

Originally posted by Catchup
GW: I would like your opinion. Would you hit on my thread "The Mark?" AND GIVE IT YOUR BEST SHOT.

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Are you being sarcastic? Sometimes your humor makes it hard to tell. Sorry. I cannot see you or hear your voice to help me figure out when you are using sarcasm. Mostly I can tell, but not always.

I have seen you posting a lot around here that preterists are ruining your threads. I intend no such offense.

Your brother in Christ,
GW

Messenger,

I am not saying that you misunderstand righteousness by faith. I am saying that you are not getting the situation correct nor the timing.

Paul is talking mostly to Jews who are followers of Jesus who are still keeping Mosaic Law for righteousness. Paul is trying to help them see see Jesus APART from a Law of Moses. They are having much trouble with this strange new teaching. To be redeemed from the Law of Moses had meaning in AD 30-70. It has no meaning after AD 70.

No one can be redeemed from the Law of Moses after AD 70. Get it? One can't be redeemed from something that doesn't exist.

Originally posted by GW


chili-oi = "thousands"

it is not limited to "thousand" as in the number "1000"

Click to expand...

that is not what the strong's says...it says "thousand" no "s" it does not give any other definition.

i think where you messed up was thinking ONE thousand was singular..

i could take the english word "thousand" and say that since it is plural it must mean more than one thousand...and make the same "mistake".

Originally posted by GW
Messenger,

I am not saying that you misunderstand righteousness by faith. I am saying that you are not getting the situation correct nor the timing.

Paul is talking mostly to Jews who are followers of Jesus who are still keeping Mosaic Law for righteousness. Paul is trying to help them see see Jesus APART from a Law of Moses. They are having much trouble with this strange new teaching. To be redeemed from the Law of Moses had meaning in AD 30-70. It has no meaning after AD 70.

No one can be redeemed from the Law of Moses after AD 70. Get it? One can't be redeemed from something that doesn't exist.

Click to expand...

but GW the law does exist, we are not under it being in the New Covenant, but for those not under the NC there is the law, this is true now as it was in 70ad or before, otherwise no one in the world would be guilty of sin, since law determines and defines sin.

Hi Craigy
Thank you for taking the time to respond, sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you.
I assume by the fact you did not address Isaiah 65:17-22 that you are still contemplating Isaiah's remarks about the existance of Birth, ageing, death and sinners in the New Heavens and earth. Thats OK, take all the time you need. (Here's a hint:Most futurists assign that passage to the "millennium" to get around the text here, even though Isaiah places those realities squarely in the New H&E)

Originally posted by Craigybabe


Ok in my opinion 'The City' is actually Heaven. It makes sense. "Blessed are those who do his commandments... they may enter the gates of his city..."
So those who do his commandments etc will go to Heaven, those who will not be permitted are the sorcerers, bad people etc. So yeah they are gonna be out of the city (Heaven) because they're not permitted.

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Well, John says the city, at this point, is "on the new earth" and the Dogs , sorcerors, liars etc, are right outside the city's gates, on the new earth. Is it your contention that the "new earth" is heaven too? or is the new earth hell, and the city heaven? Remember, your original proclimation was that there would be no sinners on the new earth. Has that view changed? (BTW, with the sole exception of Jesus Christ, only sinners go to heaven, sinners washed clean by Christs blood, but sinners none the less)

Originally posted by Craigybabe
Isaih 9 v7 is a prophecy of The Messiah's original coming.

My translation of vs 7 is:

"His power will never end; peace will last for ever."

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Of the increase (Hebrew "marbeh", meaning "increase or abundance") of His government (Hebrew "misrah" meaning "rule, dominion or government") and of His peace (Hebrew "shalowm" meaning "peace") there shall be no end (Hebrew "qets" meaning "end")

Your version copmpletely eliminates the original Hebrew "marbeh" (increase) from it's translation. Better check into that.
The Hebrew confirms that the of the "abundant increase" of His "rule and dominion" there shall be no end.

Again, there is no expiration date on the expansion of His dominion.

Originally posted by Craigybabe
And lastly, Rev 22 vs 6 onwards is John's epilogue of the book of Revelations. It's his final thoughts on what he has described earlier during the book.

Craig

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So you believe that part of Revelation has already been fulfilled?

Congratulations! you are officially "partial preterist"!

Yep, no doubt about it, you are already on your way!

YBIC,
P70

Originally posted by The Messenger
but GW the law does exist, we are not under it being in the New Covenant, but for those not under the NC there is the law, this is true now as it was in 70ad or before, otherwise no one in the world would be guilty of sin, since law determines and defines sin.

Click to expand...

Incorrect.

No one has participated in the Law of Moses since AD 70. The Law system was a "parenthesis" system set up for 1500 years, from Moses to Christ (Gal 3:16-25). It is gone now, and has been for nearly 2000 years. All humanity is back the way it was BEFORE God added the Law of Moses.

Only NOW we have the atonement which Abraham did NOT have, even though he had faith that justified. Without an atonement, Abe was still unforgiven of sins.

Originally posted by The Messenger


but GW the law does exist, we are not under it being in the New Covenant, but for those not under the NC there is the law, this is true now as it was in 70ad or before, otherwise no one in the world would be guilty of sin, since law determines and defines sin.

Click to expand...

The Law was given to Jews, and Jews were the only people required to follow the law. If the law does in fact still exist today, then it exists only for Jews.

Romans 5 shows us how sin was in the world before the law but was "not imputed" against man. No one was saved whether they sinned or not. Befor the Law, sin was not used as a measuring stick for salvation.

Now, with the fulfillment of the Law, and since it has once for all time been declared "obsolete" By God, Sin is once again "not imputed" against man.

We either choose to remain "in adam" in which case we are already condemned whether we sin or not, or we can choose to enter "in Christ" in which case we are saved even though we sin.

Sin has been forever removed as the criteria by which God determines salvation.
Sin can no longer keep man from God. Sin has been forever stripped of It's power. Sin is dead.

Originally posted by davo


rollin', I have noticed that lots of times you make outlandish and sweeping statements that have no scriptural creedance -this is one of them. I'm sure the inspired prophets had way more idea than you give them credit -on what scriptural basis do you make this claim?

davo

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To davo,
This thread was not meant to engage you preterists, but I knew it would become infested by them. This thread was started by me, to caution the newcomers. I no longer want to know what you preterists believe. I have had my fill. People are starting to leave this Forum now because of your kind. Oh - I see how you are starting topics that would capture the interest of the unsuspecting believer that exercises faith and has hope of the Lords return. But more and more I see how you are getting less and less replies. I do believe that you preterists are trying to take over this Forum, either that or you just love a good arguement. I know what your all about, because I already engaged in debates with your kind, and it always ended in a dead end. Now I will tell you why they ended that way. They ended in a dead end because the darkness could not understand the light. I could see where you preterists were coming from. You were coming from the perspective of a lost soul reading the scriptures without the Holy Spirit, the same way I understood them when I was lost, you are blinded to the truth. I believe that we serve two different spirits, and yes I believe that you are deceived. You have the spirit of division, but I can see right through it. Please don't ask me any of questions, because we both know where they will lead. Your goal of a take-over just might work, and that I am curious to see, before I move on.

Thunder,

I used to be futurist. Have you ever been a preterist?

I know why people are futurist, because I used to be one.
In fact, most all preterists used to be futurist. we know the turmoil you are going through with digesting this view for the first time, for we all went through the same turmoil, asked the same questions, took the same stance you are taking right now. I used to be you! scoffing at the notion that preterism was even worth my time to investigate. But the Holy Spirit, who was dwelling in me since I became saved, some 18 years before I accepted the truth of past fulfillment, was moving me to test this 'new' understanding, not against what I had been "taught" all my Christian Life, but against the scriptures.

You may never choose to even agree that peterism is as valid an endtime view as any of the "plethera" of other Christian end time views out there, but thats ok, for you are saved by the Blood of Christ AMEN! and your eschatological stance has no bearing on that outcome. However, I am saved by the same blood, and belong to the same body of Christ as you do.

I am sorry if this fact is uncomfortable for you, but it is a fact none the less. Preterists are Christians, like it or not.

May the God we both worship bless you and guide you into all truth
Your brother in Christ,
P70

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER

I believe that we serve two different spirits, and yes I believe that you are deceived. You have the spirit of division, but I can see right through it.

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You are the only one who is dividing. I have yet to see any of the preterists accuse the futurists of being "the darkness", or "lost souls", or telling them that they aren't listening to the holy spirit, or try to get them to leave the board, or any of the other things you have directed at them. I'm not sure why this issue bothers you so much, but maybe you need to step back for a while and think about your own actions rather than the preterists'.

-Chris

Originally posted by The Messenger


Shalom Chris

so what exactly is your objection to "Revelation-related end times stuff"?

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I just don't believe in it, nor do I think it's an important thing to worry about either for my salvation or my daily life.

-Chris

"Lazy Virgin"

Jesus speaks a parable about the end in Matthew 25 (immediately after He prophesies about the eschaton in chapter 24), in which there are ten virgins. Five kept oil in vessels, five were foolish. Five were prepared for the Bridegroom's return, five were not. Now, this parable is not speaking about believers (the Bridegroom does not allow the five foolish virgins in, but "casts them out into outer darkness," a fate reserved for unbelievers), but note Jesus' words at the end of the parable:

"Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming."

We are commanded to watch. To watch with expectancy, for the Bridegroom's coming is imminent (that is, it can occur at any time). Preterism falsely assumes that all the signs of the end have already been fulfilled, so there is no need to "watch," except in some vague sense of "Yeah, Jesus can return... someday..." Jesus' return to the rank-and-file preterist is a far-off ideal, not an imminent reality.

Are you watching, or lazing?

John

GW,

Your #30 post is right on the money. Your's too, Kern and Katya!

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Using that parable John your saying that the preterist is not saved aren't you ?