God and the Jews

what are you trying to say I believe u confused me on this one.

Paul talks about how God has revealed himself through everything that he had created, even from the very beginning, but men did not seek Him. Please read Romans, Paul is way more competent on these matters than I am

I'm sorry if I didn't catch the point.. nevertheless, Romans is a very important letter.

I think, on the contrary, that "God" is found in places where the Word has not reached - it is just that people cannot recognise his true nature because he remains undisclosed to them apart from the evidence of his creation. This inevitably led/leads to people creating their own image of god or gods.

As already mentioned above, Paul explains in his letter to the Romans as follows:

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities–his eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Rom 1:18-20

I doubt there are many cultures in the world that have had no form of deity whatsoever. Mankind has always had a deep suspicion of the existence of a supernatural intelligence that interfered and interracted with their physical world.

God chose to reveal himself to mankind in stages, starting with the chosen race and then, through the extension of the new Israelite covenant to the Gentiles, to the rest of the world. It is a reasonable assumption that one purpose in this is that we are intended to take an active participation in the process. It is perhaps part of spiritual maturing - the practical lessons.

It is interesting to note that God does not condemn pagans for simply not knowing him, rather for the inherent wickedness in their ways in spite of their obvious suspicion that he was "out there somewhere". Equally though, he does give credit to pagans for correct behaviour in spite of their lack of familiarity with God:

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) Rom 2:13-15

Hope this helps

Kaitsu

Although Jesus came as the "Living Word" that spoke the worlds into existence, and dwelt among men for only a short time before giving His own life in the flesh for mankinds sins, God is still near to everyone who has life. The Bible says that all men know that there is God by instinct - the law within themselves knows good from evil and that all men have the evidence of the creation they stand in the middle of. We dwell inside of God and have our being, yet He manifests Himself in the flesh so He can enjoy fellowship with His creation of man who is in His image. Here is a little of what Paul's letter to the Roman Church says:

Romans 1:18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who push the truth away from themselves.
19 For the truth about God is known to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts.
20 From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God.
21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead.

Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

John 1:1 In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 He created everything there is. Nothing exists that he didn’t make.

Woah, I think I get your question....and it really strikes me......quite a hard one actually....

God is IN their hearts....that's what I know.....we are all able to know him because of the way we are made, in his image, for him, by him, because of him.....and so....it is inborn in us to have that God shaped hole made just for him....and we want to fill it and they have a way....inside themselves....I can't explain this any more than that, sorry.......it's all I understand as of yet, good question!

Hi Jarrodinabubble,

Jarrodinabubble said:

From an Atheists POV, because the places that haven't heard of god haven't been... (I'm trying to think of a nicer word than Brainwashed here)... by the people who have herd of him.

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I am sure you are right in many instances, but then if this were a rule, how did religion get started in the first place, before there was anyone to brainwash anyone else? So at least someone, somewhere, at some time, had an inspiration. Of course, one could argue that it was invented as a power tool to manipulate the weak, but that would not, in itself, create genuine belief in those who were being manipulated along with an urge to tell others about it.....and it certainly wouldn't explain why those people would willingly die for their belief when they don't even have to keep it. Don't you think there is at least a little more going on here than brainwashing?

Kaitsu

Kaitsu said:

Hi Jarrodinabubble,





I am sure you are right in many instances, but then if this were a rule, how did religion get started in the first place, before there was anyone to brainwash anyone else? So at least someone, somewhere, at some time, had an inspiration. Of course, one could argue that it was invented as a power tool to manipulate the weak, but that would not, in itself, create genuine belief in those who were being manipulated along with an urge to tell others about it.....and it certainly wouldn't explain why those people would willingly die for their belief when they don't even have to keep it. Don't you think there is at least a little more going on here than brainwashing?

Kaitsu

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I personally believe the religion was started to not just keep people "in line" but also to give meaning to peoples lives, to comfort them about death, and to explain the then, unexplainable. It brought hope and happiness into hopeless and sad people. ALso, many people were punished or killed if they did not believe in Christianity or other religions, so the spreading of religions could have been caused by this. As for the people who would die for their beliefs, maybe mentally unstable??

God is known to all. I have heard of missionaries going into very remote areas with no contact with the outside world and finding that the natives already had some knowledge of God and Jesus, even if they knew them by different names.

Hi Jarrodinabubble

Jarrodinabubble said:

I personally believe the religion was started to not just keep people "in line" but also to give meaning to peoples lives, to comfort them about death, and to explain the then, unexplainable. It brought hope and happiness into hopeless and sad people. ALso, many people were punished or killed if they did not believe in Christianity or other religions, so the spreading of religions could have been caused by this. As for the people who would die for their beliefs, maybe mentally unstable??

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I think it is absolutely possible that religion started from any or all of the reasons you state here. It is not only plausible, but is very logical - particularly in explaining the unexplainable. Especially, when we consider that, for example, Jesus dwelt and worked amongst the poor and the sick, who saw no hope of a decent future in this world -it is very easy to understand that they would accept with open hearts a promise of a new world with no pain and where all injustice has been dealt with appropriately.

However, it somehow leaves a tinge of unfinished explanation. It does not, for example, explain the miracles that have happened, nor the incredible changes in people's characters, nor the answered prayers, nor the selfless contribution to the welfare of others before oneself. In addition, I know of a number of people who came to faith long before there was any chance of them becoming "hopeless and sad people". Conversely, I also know people who reject any thought of a God simply because they are hopeless and sad!

I do not believe such qualities existed in early or primitive civilizations where suspicion of a supernatural intelligence was probably awoken purely as the result of the wonder of the universe around them. But awake it did. The fact that these later phenomenon developed with Judaism and Christianity in an ongoing flow in a constant direction without reversal or diversion certainly underpins the conviction that so many feel in their faith.

But I fear we might be digressing from the theme of this thread here!

Thanks for the point of view.

Kaitsu

Jarrodinabubble said:

From an Atheists POV, because the places that haven't heard of god haven't been... (I'm trying to think of a nicer word than Brainwashed here)... by the people who have herd of him.

Example.. Baby gets thrown off a ship, floats to a humanless island and is raised by monkeys. He experiences Birth, Death, Storms, etc. with his fellow monkey. His explanation for these events are natural occurences. He doesn't know what a god is, therefore he doesn't think a god is what is causing everything. This person experiences life untainted by the views and explanations of religions.

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Brainwashed? There are no brainwashing techniques envolved in Christianity. If anything, I was turned off to it from childhood by poor examples of it. Do you know what brainwashing envolves?
Isolation still does not take away from the knowledge that one exists for a reason, not an accident. As we have gotten better in knowledge and technology, we have proved more and more things of the Bible true. I was watching a show on the history channel last night about how the pagues of Egypt followed a logical pattern. Mathematics M- theory and speculations about the 11 dimensions that our existence envolves is all very fascinating. A person, IMO, has to be close minded and think in very narrow terms to explain away our existence and the awesome design of life away as accident. No, there is no brain washing or closing of the mind, but a freeing of the mind and a knowledge of the truth that gives peace that surpasses understanding. We understand what death is and that it has no sting to those that have accepted the new body of life that exists in Jesus. History is kinda tough to ignore too, but even though there is hundreds of witnesses, even those of non-believers, people prefer unbelief to the truth. In a way, it could be they that have been brainwashed by the world and it thanatoes or death wish instead of the life that the Christian embraces.

cweb255 said:

kaitsu - can we not do that with other religions? I mean, like language, can not religion be some sort of developed trait within humanity? Religion has been with us since the dawn of man, why Christianity then?

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Are you referring to this proposal?

"I do not believe such qualities existed in early or primitive civilizations where suspicion of a supernatural intelligence was probably awoken purely as the result of the wonder of the universe around them. But awake it did. The fact that these later phenomenon developed with Judaism and Christianity in an ongoing flow in a constant direction without reversal or diversion certainly underpins the conviction that so many feel in their faith."

Yes, I think we can indeed say the same things about other religions. Whilst I personally believe Christianity is the most direct route (the bible says all men will confess Christ), I do not claim that as an Absolute Truth simply because I couldn't possibly know that. People have tried to prove and disprove God for as long as we've had the brains for it and it simply cannot be resolved by empirical, scientific, circumstantial or any other study.

The core of one's faith is a personal "knowing" that there is someone on the other end of the prayer and that one is not talking to a dead "cellphone". One sees things happening in one's life that relate directly to matters that one has prayed about and to such an extent that coincidence is no longer a viable explanation. And then, when one studies the bible and begins to see the flow of God's Plan, it all just makes sense.

But I also accept that some 2 mill Muslims also pray fervently and I cannot believe that they do not experience something similar, otherwise why would they still continue?

BUt, as an atheist, may I ask you one question that I have never yet found a satifactory reply to, even during my own many years as a hardened atheist:

I can accept the remote possibility that life spontaneously started as an accidental reaction to various components coming together at the same time, and I can accept the process of development through evolution (although that has as many holes as a string vest), but I have never been able to accept that after one miracle initiating life, we then have an immediate second miracle in those life forms accidentally developing a reproduction method before they have the chance to die away, and then still a third successive miracle in developing the incredible life-force that drives the fierce survival instinct that exists in both plants and animals. All of these had to develop immediately in the very first life forms in order for them to have continued, i.e. there was no time for evolving such traits, they just had to be there from the first moment. Three successive miracles, the probabilities of each of which are staggeringly close to impossible.

Any suggestions?

And apologies for wandering off-topic

Kaitsu

Hi cweb255

Thanks for you response

Whilst I do appreciate your concept of bacteria reproducing, it still does not relate directly to my question. I am not so much concerned with whether they reproduced, but why they did and how did they develop such a mechanism to do so. It is totally illogical to assume that it would automatically just happen. Surely the most likely outcome would have been for them to just die? That is the mystery that baffles me so much and remains unanswered. I don’t discount the idea of bacteria being transferred to this planet from elsewhere – it simply transfers the same question to some other place where they did originate.


In addition, I still don't understand, in the atheist model, how we have such a thing as the life force, that desperate urge for survival that causes plants and animals to adapt in the most incredible ways to inhospitable environments. Where did it come from? Again, is it not far more logical that living organisms would just die when faced with hostile environments?



But I do appreciate your thoughts, especially as you say you are an ex-Christian turned atheist, and I am an ex-atheist turned Christian!!!!!



You said that you will ask me one question and then give me about five , but that is just fine! Unfortunately, though, I fear already beforehand that I am not going to be very useful here and you will find my response rather empty and shallow, but for what they’re worth here are a few humble comments:



1) Taking into the accounts the history of Judaism, how do we know that Christianity is the correct religion, or as you said, the most direct path?



I don’t think I said that Christianity is the “correct” religion (I’m not overly fond of that description since God decided how religions would be phased, and therefore there are just various stages and not “right” and “wrong” faiths), I prefer to just call it the most direct path. But, naturally, in the sense of absolute fact, we cannot know that. We cannot “know” anything about any faith or non-faith – afterall, even atheism is a much a belief as, say, Christianity. No one can disprove God any more than we can prove him.

However, there is much evidence that points to Christianity being true. Perhaps the best starting point is Jesus himself. We know virtually nothing of him from any non-biblical sources (as far as I am aware), he wrote nothing himself, and he was a public figure for a period of less than three years. His style was a meek and humble teacher, he didn’t seek any personal power or wealth, he offered nothing of this world to anyone, he encouraged people to give up even the little they had, he even told people they would suffer and be persecuted, and he knew himself that he would eventually be tortured and executed for what he preached. To me there are only four possibilities here:


1) He was the Son of God and knew it

2) He was not the Son of God but thought he was

3) He was not the Son of God and knew he was not

4) The bible is fiction



The second option is unlikely because that would mean he was mentally deluded. Such a person would hardly know Scripture the way he knew it, nor could they do the miracles he did, nor is it likely that a mentally-deluded human could, in turn, continue to influence and delude the entire world for thousands of years after his own death. There have been many far more influential and powerful humans than Jesus in history, yet none of them continue to have such a direct impact on people’s lives today.



The third option is even more unlikely, since if Jesus knew he was not really the Son of God, what possible motive could he have had for spending his life in poverty and seeking nothing for himself and deliberately pushing himself towards a known, horrendously painful, execution.



The fourth option is indeed more likely than options 2 or 3, but then we have to wonder how such an amazing fraud could be perpetrated, and even more amazing, why? The bible is a collection of documents written over a period of some 1500 years by some 40 different people from different kinds of cultural backgrounds, education, languages, and civilizations. And yet it forms a coherent and consistent whole. How and why could that have been orchestrated on such a grand scale? It is, of course, possible that it is purely the result of refining and honing by successive copyists that have gradually erased any conflicting parts until it was such a whole - but surviving documents indicate this has not actually happened. In addition, we know that copying was a serious work carried out by monks, etc, dedicated to their task. Surely nothing significant could have been changed in the bible by any one individual copyist without being part of a widespread, orchestrated, and coordinated plot to do so. This seems unlikely. There certainly are minor errors and conflicts in the bible, but these do not impact the core message that the Bible brings us.



That only leaves us with option 1 as the most likely.



Once we accept that option 1 is the only viable option, then the bible becomes a reliable source of information and, by definition, becomes a work containing God’s message to the human race as it was given to the writers. After that, we can conclude that Christianity is the direct route to God simply because the bible tells us so. It also tells us that all men will confess God as the Lord over everything, so even those who follow other religions will at some point face the same Christ.



Why did God choose to do it this way in stages? I don’t know, I wish I did!





2) how do we know that the religious experience you have isn't just a production of the brain, which of course modern genetics tells us that it is, but a sort of chicken/egg question. Did man create god or did god create man?



I think the only possible answer to this is the fact that hundreds of thousands of Christians will testify to prayers being answered, prophesies being fulfilled, and healings taking place. These are all events external to our own influence and therefore beyond the possibility of being the output of our own brains.



But again, one can argue that these are all coincidences. But there comes a point where sheer volume and constructive connectivity in these events makes coincidence practically impossible. All I can say is that, in my experience, when one is doing what God wants one to do, the most incredible things start to happen. This kind of experience is totally meaningless to anyone else, of course, but it is precisely what supports the kind of conviction that people have in their faith that leads them even to face the risk of death.



3) Did man create language or did god create language and give it to man? Did man create monarchy, democracy, socialism, or did god give that to us too?



In my opinion, in the most part these are all man’s creation. However, as a Christian, I believe God sometimes inspired and guided man’s hand in these (such as Saul and David, etc) and in the creation of authorities on earth, and delegated some of his authority to them. For this reason we are told to obey these authorities (in principle). However, the bible does not say that these authorities actually use the powers God gave them according to his will, and Christians are often faced with conflict in this area. Man has the power to think and create, and he has the powerful tool of free-will. With these he explores and moulds his domain like a dog on a very long leash. (Our freedoms are actually more restricted than we often imagine).



4) What about the Cinderella archetype, the flood archetype, the christ archetype. Does it not seem plausible, no likely, that all of these are mere developments hominum sapientum?



I am not sure I understand what you mean here. Are you questioning whether these are literal or symbolic? If so, I think there is much in the biblical story of the human race that can be read in either form. For example, I think that perhaps the world was not literally created in only 6 days, nor am I convinced that Adam and Eve were the only and original people on earth, or that the apple was literally the first human sin. However, I do not think that Christ is symbolic. The early apostles and disciples would have known whether Christ was a real person or not, and if not, then that makes, for example, Paul’s travels and missionary work extremely implausible – which would bring us back to the question of whether the bible is fact or fiction.



5) Cain found his wife elsewhere?



If Adam and Eve were the literal first humans then Cain’s wife was probably also his sister, cousin, niece or other close relative. The bible says that Adam had a son called Seth when he was 130 years old. This does not exclude the likelihood that Adam and Eve also had other children between Cain and Seth. The bible often only deals with the key figures.



However, I guess it is also possible that Adam and Eve are only figurative of the human race at the point at which God put his spirit into them (especially if one believes in some form of directed evolution).



I guess the above really amounts to little more that useless words, of which I have already written too many, so I’ll stop here.



Kaitsu

Jarrodinabubble said:

Wow, someone decided to take my words a LITTLE to seriously. But, since you decided to get on this subject, let me take some events from the bible a little seriously. Yes, some things from the bible are true. But most aren't. Can you honestly tell me that one dude split a sea in half?? That it rained so much the whole Earth flooded??? That a man could walk on water?? To take these events seriously, these words from the bible seriously, is sad. Yes, you can say that Jesus can do anything cause he was the son of god.. and all the normal explanations that the bible gave for these events. If a man today said he could walk on water and that he was Jesus, in 2 minutes he would be in a straight-jacket headed to a mental institution. Just like you say history is tough to ignore, so is common sense. No sir, you are mistaken, I have not been brainwashed.

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I think this post is funny. At least the part about the straight-jacket. The truth is that many people didn't believe Jesus in his day. The religious leaders of the day would have gotten rid of him sooner if he hadn't been so popular. But, he was popular because he was doing things that no one else was able to do. People came to him for healing and for advice. Many of them probably weren't thinking of him as the Son of God. Many of them wanted a king to deliver them from the Roman Empire. The religious leaders wanted to preserve their positions.

I do wonder why you don't think that we should believe that these things happened. If God can speak and create the universe, why can't he part the water? Why couldn't the whole Earth be flooded? The environmentalists keep trying to tell us that global warming is going nearly flood the Earth completely. If God exists then it shouldn't be hard to believe that he can do these things. If he doesn't exist then how is it possible that anything else exists?

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Who can foretell the future to such an extent the Bible does?

I know of no equal source.

Just thought I'd share a couple of things, though there is much much more;
One example: I heard a person say there are about 109 prophecies regarding Messiah, along with some 500 passages and around the same number of other types of reference - here is a clue: Some person did the maths on this. He came to the conclusion that the chances of a person fulfilling 20 out of the 109 prophecies, would be 1:100,000,000. Jesus Christ fulfilled all prophecies, passages and other types of reference.

This alone should make people think twice about things.. this was all told IN ADVANCE. Now what about all the other stuff that was told years in advance, even hundreds and thousands of years in advance, which proved to be correct ?

Try and notice a little more of what is written in the Bible. For example, The Creation: "And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place" At the time, normal people had no idea what the planet looked like. A few hundred years ago, it was made known that there really is only ONE sea.

Job says that the earth "Hangs on nothing" - Try and compare this with other world views.

The Bible tells about "The men of old!" And science still talks about "Missing link" or whatever. They won't find one. God CREATED Adam. Any "Man of old" may still have walked this earth long ago, but they have nothing to do with Adam.

In fact, there is no 'technical detail' written in the Bible that science has yet proven wrong. Be it sky, earth, wind, sun, moon, stars, people, animals, anything. And all this stuff was written thousands of years ago. I don't know, but I suggest that ANY other comprehensive scripture from way back has been proven wrong in a great variety of things. Maybe I'll check that out some day.

Jesus says that two people will be in bed, sleeping - one will be taken away, one will be left behind. Two people will be out in the fields, one will be taken away, one will be left behind - Followed by the great tribulation - He knew that there would be night somewhere, and day somewhere else - Now, the general view was that the earth was flat. If the earth is flat, then the sun would have to rise shining on all the earth at the same time.

This will happen when all is fulfilled that must be fulfilled. And if we open our eyes and read what the Bible told us thousands of years ago, and look around us, we may notice that a great number of things that was told us so many years ago, are starting to happen, have already happened, or will happen soon. Because the Bible does not lie.

Just a couple of notes from me.

Thanks for reading, have a great day :=)

What do you mean? God is found everywhere.

Yes.