Can we discuss something?

Doc T said:

How can a husband and a wife become "one flesh" [Genesis 2:24] when they are two completely different personages?

Doc

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I think that is the definition of offspring.

Bond Slave said:

No, I definately understood and even asked for a copy of the lecture he was quoting from. It was by an earlier GA in the Church. I wish I could find that thing so I could say more about it. The basic gist of the lecture was that if you get on the right path and stay on it and work as hard as you can that you will be on the path to Jesus when you pass away and He will fill in the gap. I am not saying that this represents your church's teachings but if these types of things are being taught in some ward houses and they do not represent the faith, someone should do something. There were at least fifteen high priests in that room that evidently were seeing it the same way as nobody offered a challenge for it.

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And perhaps the GA was also mistaken.

Doc

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unbound said:

I think that is the definition of offspring.

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Not following you here.

Doc

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Swart said:

It's quite easy. When he was born he became flesh. When he died, he became a spirit again for three days until he was resurrected and gained his immortal, perfect body of flesh and bone which he has to this day, and will have forever.

The Father and the Son are seperate beings and are not of the same substance.

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That would be true if one were to believe the false teachings of the lds church. Where in the Bible does it say that God and Jesus have, to this day, perfect bodies of flesh and bone?

Doc T said:

I certainly agree that the misunderstanding can be and usually because of the inability to always explain clearly.

Swart said, "The Father and Jesus Christ have immortal bodies of flesh and bone." Have is in the present tense. Therefore the Father and Christ currently have immortal bodies of flesh and bone. But Christ prior to his birth did not have a body of flesh and bone (ie an immortal body) nor a body of flesh and blood (a mortal body), but he was a personage of spirit.

Perhaps that is clearer, unless you just want to accuse me of playing the blame game.

Doc

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So the lds church does not teach, nor has ever taught, that God was once a man of flesh and bones?

The blame game is played by many lds on this board. In general, it is the fault of the ex-lds for not understanding the teachings of your church that is the reason for these apostates to leave your church. Many lds deny the testamonies of these ex-mo's that they (ex-mo's) have been led out of your church by the light of Christ. Your statement was just another example of the transference of blame.

Doc T said:

Not following you here.

Doc

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Man and woman become one flesh when they cleave together. the result is offspring, the combination of the two.

Bond Slave said:

I think it is wonderful to hear the LDS say that they rely on Jesus solely to attain salvation and that works are a product of a converted heart. I am wondering though, do you believe this message is taught clearly enough in the wards and at G.C.? When I was LDS this was not my understanding of what I was taught. I remember very clearly attending the High Priest Quorum meeting and hearing that we must do all we can before we die and that Jesus will do the rest. To my fleshy nature, this sounded right. Today it scares me that people are going to pass still believing this. I guess today I would like to ask those people if they truly did EVERYTHING they could do. If they read the scriptures for 2 hours, COULD they have read 3? If they did 20 good deeds today, COULD they have done 22? Anyway, back to the question. Do you see this message being clearly taught?

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Doc T said:

Perhaps you mis-understood (not trying to play the blame game here) or perhaps whoever taught that did not have a correct understanding themselves.

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Do Mormon General Authorities have the leading of the Holy Spirit? Why do your leaders hold the positions they do and not have a correct understanding of Mormonism?

"Jesus kept the commandments of his Father and thereby worked out his own salvation, and also set an example as to the way and the means whereby all men may be saved." (Bruce R. McConkie, The Mortal Messiah, Vol.4, p.434)

"...(O)ne of the untrue doctrines found in modern Christendom is the concept that man can gain salvation ... by grace alone."
(Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p.671)

One law of salvation is baptism for the dead. "Those saints who neglect it
on behalf of their deceased relatives, do it at the peril of their own
salvation."
(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 193, see also History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 313)

"Man's immortality and eternal life are God's goals. (Moses 1:39.) Immortality has been accomplished by the Savior's sacrifice. Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men. This progress toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through that perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us.… " (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 208–10; emphasis added).

Fit4Christ said:

That would be true if one were to believe the false teachings of the lds church. Where in the Bible does it say that God and Jesus have, to this day, perfect bodies of flesh and bone?

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[Bible]Luke 24:37-43[/Bible][Bible]Luke 24:49-51[/Bible]
Do you believe that Jesus was resurrected? Do you believe that he ascended into heaven after his resurrection?

The rest is kinda obvious.

Bond Slave said:

I think it is wonderful to hear the LDS say that they rely on Jesus solely to attain salvation and that works are a product of a converted heart. I am wondering though, do you believe this message is taught clearly enough in the wards and at G.C.?

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I suppose that would depend upon the particular ward. As for GC, they are online and anyone can read them.

Could this be taught more clearly? Possibly. In the past there has been a reaction to the "faith without works" mantra by ECs but that is much less evident today.

Have I been taught incorrect doctrine at church? Yes. But they have been in a minority of situations. Fortunately I read the scriptures and I have been in a position occasionally to counter false doctrine where it has been taught.

The church has done several things to reduce the insurgence of FD. Some of these include instructions to make sure the best teacher is called as the Gospel Essentials teacher and that members are called to attend the GE class in rotation. In is amazing how many LDS are not grounded in basic doctrine! Secondly, only fully prepared young men are called on missions, this process was called "raising the bar". This has seen the number of missionaries drop but the quality improve. [I particularly applaud this, having been the mission "fixer upper" when I served]. Third, Prospective Elders are the responsibility of the HP Quorum - the theory being that the HPs should know what they are talking about. Fourthly the missionary discussions have been radically restructured (and I mean enough to knock my sox off!), the commitment pattern has been eliminated, the six discussions are gone - and I mean GONE! Investigators progress according to their desire to progress and they must ASK to be baptised! Fifth, the choice of topics for talks in Sacrament meetings has been narrowed and the major talk must be focused on the atonement of Jesus Christ. Sixth, the number of manuals and publications has been slashed to a handful, there is one manual for all Sunday School classes and three for primary where once there was a seperate manual for every class; PH and RS both use the same manual. Seventh, the sperate quorums have broadened their responsibilities instead of focusing upon a particular mission of the church. Eight, the Bishoprics have been instructed to devote all their efforts towards the youth and primary, priesthood and the auxillaries are the responsibility of the stakes, in fact instruction has been given to release HPs from their HC and Bishopric callings so they can serve in Primary and in Youth (something I am very greatful for! )Finally a series of worldwide leadership training meetings are held at six-monthly intervals that focus on the practical aspects of church leadership.

Bond Slave said:

When I was LDS this was not my understanding of what I was taught. I remember very clearly attending the High Priest Quorum meeting and hearing that we must do all we can before we die and that Jesus will do the rest.

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I think King Benjamin put short shrift to that! To be honest, I once thought along those lines. Imperfect understanding. I had to go on my mission to abandon that notion.

Bond Slave said:

To my fleshy nature, this sounded right. Today it scares me that people are going to pass still believing this.

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I think the greatest problem with this is the constant feeling of inadequacy in the sight of God. Sooner or later somethings gotta give. Hopefully it will be that person confessing to God that they aren't good enough and the answer coming back: That's okay - you don't have to be because you can't. Once that happened to me it was a release and an unburdening.

Bond Slave said:

I guess today I would like to ask those people if they truly did EVERYTHING they could do. If they read the scriptures for 2 hours, COULD they have read 3? If they did 20 good deeds today, COULD they have done 22? Anyway, back to the question. Do you see this message being clearly taught?

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Depending upon the way it is taught, I don't see that as a problem. Should I pray more? Read the scriptures more? Do more service? Certainly! My salvation does not depend upon it however. Doing these things are a pleasure but I find structure in scheduling these things and pleasure in doing them.

GodsWordisTrue said:

Do Mormon General Authorities have the leading of the Holy Spirit? Why do your leaders hold the positions they do and not have a correct understanding of Mormonism?

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GWiT, it is you who does not have a correct understanding of Mormonism. Works are not necessary for salvation. They are a product of a converted heart and they are required to remain in the covenant relationship with Christ. With this understanding, each and every quote you provided, when understood in the proper context does not contradict that works are not necessary for salvation, but are a product of conversion.

Doc

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Doc T said:

GWiT, it is you who does not have a correct understanding of Mormonism. Works are not necessary for salvation. They are a product of a converted heart and they are required to remain in the covenant relationship with Christ. With this understanding, each and every quote you provided, when understood in the proper context does not contradict that works are not necessary for salvation, but are a product of conversion.

Doc

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"...(O)ne of the untrue doctrines found in modern Christendom is the concept that man can gain salvation ... by grace alone."
(Mormon Doctrine,p.671 Bruce McConkie )


"Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming." (Doctrine & Covenants 64:23)

Individual salvation is "...that which man merits through his own acts
through life and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.
(Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1 p. 134, Joseph Fielding Smith)

One law of salvation is baptism for the dead. "Those saints who neglect it
on behalf of their deceased relatives, do it at the peril of their own
salvation."
(Teachings of Joseph Smith p. 193, see also History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 313)

"It is in the attainment of eternal life, which man must earn in mortality, that he reaches his full potentiality" (Marion G. Romney, of the First Presidency, at General Conference, October 1978, Ensign, November, 1978, p. 14).

How can a man earn something that God gives as a gift?

Swart said:

Luke 24:37-4337 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. 38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. 40 And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? 42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them. Luke 24:49-5149 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high. 50 And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them. 51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
Do you believe that Jesus was resurrected?

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Of course.

Do you believe that he ascended into heaven after his resurrection?

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Yes.

The rest is kinda obvious.

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Only if you make the assumption that he kept his earthly body in heaven. In the Luke 24:49-51 passage you quoted, did he look like this:

“like a son of man,”dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp doubleedged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. " Revelation 1:13-16

or this:
"And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian." Rev.4:3

or any other description in the Bible? If not, then how will Jesus look this way in the end times? Could it be that he can somehow transfigure His glorified body? Please explain how this would be possible with a body of just flesh and bones as we know it on earth?

Doc T said:

Works are not necessary for salvation.

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Doc T said:

They are a product of a converted heart and they are required to remain in the covenant relationship with Christ.

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(emphasis mine)

Those two statements contradict each other.

How does the second statement above apply to non-Christian people? It is my understanding that salvation, under the LDS belief system, is indeed a gift to all but a few very bad seeds. So, how is a requirement of any covenant with Christ valid to a Jew's salvation? A Hindu? etc.

GodsWordisTrue said:

How can a man earn something that God gives as a gift?

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He can't. Man cannot earn salvation.

Doc

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Bond Slave said:

Doc, I am so very glad to hear you say this but if those quotes do not point to works salvation, they are at least unclear enough that many would believe this to be the case. That is a concern for me. I would hope that if the LDS leadership recognizes that works do not save they would start teaching that message more clearly. There are many people who do not have as good an understanding of the things of God as many on this board and hear a message and believe it. We all need to be very clear when speaking to people about God. Our carnal nature loves the idea of "earning" our heavenly reward as then we have something to boast. We must be very clear that this is not the way.

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I would agree that the quotes as given are unclear. That is why they must not only be taken in full context of the article/speach, but in the full context of the gospel.

I agree we must be clear. But we also must study and pray for the Holy Spirit so that we have a clear understanding.

Doc

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Bond Slave said:

Yeah, but unfortunately, and not just in the LDS camps, there are many who do not study and find the truths for themselves but rely on the leaders to teach them. I think this is how people like Koresh and the Heavens Gaters got so many people to follow them. They knew little and were pursuaded by a person with good teaching skills who led them astray. I wish it was that everyone would pick up the Word and search but because they do not, anyone of us in leadership must be certain to be crystal clear. I think this is why it is said that those who teach something to people which leads them astray will be given much more accountability for the action.

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Unfortunately that is human nature. As you pointed out it is not an LDS attribute only.

Doc

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Fit4Christ said:

Only if you make the assumption that he kept his earthly body in heaven. In the Luke 24:49-51 passage you quoted, did he look like this:

“like a son of man,”dressed in a robe reaching down to his feet and with a golden sash around his chest. 14His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp doubleedged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance. " Revelation 1:13-16

or this:
"And the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian." Rev.4:3

or any other description in the Bible? If not, then how will Jesus look this way in the end times? Could it be that he can somehow transfigure His glorified body? Please explain how this would be possible with a body of just flesh and bones as we know it on earth?

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Jesus was transfigured on the mount of transfiguration, yet he did not cast his body aside:
[Bible]Matthew 17:2[/Bible]
An immortal, resurrected body of flesh and bones has the same general appearance as our mortal bodies of flesh and blood. They are, however, different in ways that we cannot fully define.

The scriptures you quote in Revelation are symbolic and are obviously symbolic by their prophetic tense and their context. For example:Verse not found.No one would assume that a sword will literally come out of the mouth of the Lord. It is symbolic: What comes out of the Lord's mouth? The word of God. Why is it a sharp two-edged sword? Because the word of God cuts both ways, it cuts through believer and unbeliever alike.

Descriptions like this are replete in prophetic literature such as in Revelations, Isaiah and Daniel. In all cases, the symbol has an implicit meaning that is understood only to those with the spirit of prophecy and revelation, or those who have it expounded to them by those with this gift. In this ways the mysteries of God are hidden from the world who do not understand these things. Thus they remain secrets unto God and his faithful.

Unless of course you think this is a good description of the nature of God: [Bible]Ruth 2:12[/Bible]
There you have it! God's a chicken!