O/F OSAS vs. fall from grace

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Trento

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For Me4Him Luke 8:5-8 - Jesus said, "A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it. Some fell on rock, and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold." When He had said these things He cried, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"


JESUS THEN EXPLAINED THE PARABLE of THE SOWER
Luke 8:11-15 - Jesus said, "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved (note: These people don't become believers to begin with after they hear the word of God, but the others next do believe and get born again, but they lose their life in Christ and fall away because of sin). But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while (note: For a time they were born-again believers. It's the common word for believe, "pisteuo." I think they should have learned the word of God better. But even if they would have had some root, God still could have cut them off because of unbelief, just like you'll see it is in Romans 11:17-22. The people who say that the ones who fall away were not real believers contradict God's word) and in time of temptation fall away (note: They had been set free from sin, but they didn't resist the temptation of sin. The Greek word for "fall away" is "aphistemi." It means they "depart, desert, withdraw, fall away," whichever definition you choose to use, from having life in Christ. They no longer have belief which means they "become faithless" because they fell for the temptation of sin).

Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and they are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity (note: Sin destroyed these lives as well. The sin of greed. I will also show you later that you need to bear good fruit).

But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it (note: The Greek word for "keep" is "katecho." It means "hold fast, keep, stay" in regards to "from going away." Clearly this is our personal responsibility to continue to believe the word of God and to remain faithful to Him) and bear fruit with patience." ~ Note: The Greek word for "patience" is "hupomone." It more correctly means "enduring, perseverance, the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings." To be saved at the end, you must persevere while bearing good fruit. Jesus made it clear that a true believer produces good fruit, and that the human will is involved IN REMAINING A BELIEVER, since He says we must "keep it" and "persevere." Christ proves here that no one is eternally secure no matter what they do.


"Satan can even clothe himself in a cloak of humility, but he does not know how to wear the cloak of obedience". St. Faustina
 
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isshinwhat

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To offend the law in one point makes you as guilty as offending in "all points". Sin is sin, there no "big/little" sin.

1 John
16 If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that.
17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.

Christ abides in His faithful. At baptism we are made brothers and sisters of Christ. Me4Him, you quoted the beautiful passage 1 John 3:14, but you didn't quote the last part.

14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death.

We all agree that Christ gives eternal life, but the question is when do we take hold of it? When do we get the fruits of our will? Jesus says in Mark 10:30 that we will get what we need in this life, "and in the age to come eternal life." We don't receive that life for good here, we can still give it back and be severed from the source of our life (Galatians 5:4).

I guess one of the best descriptions I know of losing your salvation is the parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15. The father's son takes his inheritance and leaves, squandering it on loose living. After a while he realizes the error of his ways and returns to his father who is waiting for him, and in fact runs to greet him. He then gives him a ring and they have a feast. He is restored and he will again have an inheritance.

What do I get from that story? That I, while still being a son (read sealed/marked with the Holy Spirit) can engage in loose living and squander my inheritance (which is as Paul teaches eternal life). That my father will meet me half way and comfort me on my way home, and that I will be restored to the family of my brothers and sisters and will have a share in my fathers inheritance again.

Read the last sentence, verse 32 "It was fitting to make merry and be glad, for this your brother was dead, and is alive; he was lost, and is found."

Notice it wasn't a stranger who was lost, but a brother. A brother was once dead, but is now alive! Praise be to God that He can restore us, even when we reject Him.

Neal
 
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Originally posted by VOW
To Me4Him:

Huh?

I'm sorry, but I lost the whole conversation once you started throwing in the Jews, the tribulation, and whatnot.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Then I'd suggest you study your Bible some more.

To put it in a "nutshell", Your salvation is a "GIFT" God gives, and he doesn't change his mind.

God chose the Jews and even as they are "enemies of the Gospel", they're still under "Chastisment", and God only chastises his "own Children".

Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye *******s, and not sons.

Once you're saved, God has given you the "GIFT" of salvation, He'll "NEVER" take it back, even if you "rebel" against him to the point it become necessary for him to allow Satan to kill your flesh, but the Spirit (Soul) will still be saved.

1Co 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly (Spiritually) among you, and many sleep. (dead)


When you're down in a pit, you can't see very far, it's the same way with the Bible, when you're confined to doctrine of just a few verses, it's hard to see the "BIG PICTURE".

Back off, try to get a "mental picture" of the Bible as a whole, it then become easier to "See" where the smaller pieces fits in, kinda like working a Jig saw puzzle.


Peace.
 
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VOW

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To Me4Him:

I've studied my Bible just fine, thank you. What I was trying to impart to YOU is that your argument lacked cohesiveness, and did not have a logical thread through it.

Yes, by all means, Salvation is a GIFT. But, through Free Will, stupid people (and face it, humanity is famous for its stupidity!) can give the Gift back, drop the Gift, ignore the Gift, forget they HAVE the Gift after a while, misplace the Gift, stomp all over the Gift... It's human nature. Accepting the Gift of Salvation does not destroy Free Will. We have to LEARN how to behave like Christians.

That is what Paul meant by a journey.

The beauty, is even when we, through our own stupidity, somehow misplace the Gift, God has an unlimited supply of Grace, and we are always welcome back into His arms.

And please don't talk down to me, or accuse me of limiting my understanding of the Bible to just a few verses. I'm a Catholic, I believe in Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition, and I'm giving you the wealth of the wisdom of the Early Church Fathers.

This forum is for discussion, NOT condescension.



Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Nick_Loves_Abba

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Originally posted by VOW
To Me4Him:

I've studied my Bible just fine, thank you. What I was trying to impart to YOU is that your argument lacked cohesiveness, and did not have a logical thread through it.

Yes, by all means, Salvation is a GIFT. But, through Free Will, stupid people (and face it, humanity is famous for its stupidity!) can give the Gift back, drop the Gift, ignore the Gift, forget they HAVE the Gift after a while, misplace the Gift, stomp all over the Gift... It's human nature. Accepting the Gift of Salvation does not destroy Free Will. We have to LEARN how to behave like Christians.

That is what Paul meant by a journey.

The beauty, is even when we, through our own stupidity, somehow misplace the Gift, God has an unlimited supply of Grace, and we are always welcome back into His arms.

And please don't talk down to me, or accuse me of limiting my understanding of the Bible to just a few verses. I'm a Catholic, I believe in Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition, and I'm giving you the wealth of the wisdom of the Early Church Fathers.

This forum is for discussion, NOT condescension.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

We can't lose our salvation. It just poses too many questions and contradictions. Grace isn't something which we can lose as easily as we can a shoe or a pair of glasses. C'mon now.

If that was the case, Christains would be losing and getting back their salvation ALL THE TIME.

Ahhh dangit, I lost my salvation. Ohh wait, there it is, I found it again.
 
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isshinwhat

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I love it...we give scripture to suppport our view and we get feelings and condesencion in return. Please, dialouge with us if you feel we are wrong. Answer our statements, refute them if you want, but please do not tell us that we don't read our Bible. I think we have provided enough evidence to the contrary. Browbeating will not help anyone grow. We need dialouge. One party brings up a topic, the other responds to that topic specifically. At least this way we get into the meat of the matter and understand one another better, else all we are doing is listening to ourselves talk...errrr....reading ourselves type.

Bless you all,

Neal
 
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Nick_Loves_Abba

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Originally posted by isshinwhat
I love it...we give scripture to suppport our view and we get feelings and condesencion in return. Please, dialouge with us if you feel we are wrong. Answer our statements, refute them if you want, but please do not tell us that we don't read our Bible. I think we have provided enough evidence to the contrary. Browbeating will not help anyone grow. We need dialouge. One party brings up a topic, the other responds to that topic specifically. At least this way we get into the meat of the matter and understand one another better, else all we are doing is listening to ourselves talk...errrr....reading ourselves type.

Bless you all,

Neal

Your not talkin to me are you? I hope not. In every post of mine, I try hard to humble myself. If ever, I give the impression that I think I'm better, or I think I'm smarted, I want to tell you I right now I don't. Forgive me in advance if I ever do.

Love ya all.
 
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isshinwhat

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Grace isn't something which we can lose as easily as we can a shoe or a pair of glasses. C'mon now.

Ahhh dangit, I lost my salvation. Ohh wait, there it is, I found it again.

This is part of what I was referring to. I think everyone here needs to realize that these are not idle notions that are fun to banter over. Our conversations could cause a big stir in someone's faith, for good or bad.

I'm used to people questioning every aspect of my faith, heck, I'm in Tennessee and I'm the only Catholic in my family. But there's a right way and a wrong way to go about talking about it. Blind statements that we don't, or must not "see the whole picture" or "C'mon now, do you really believe that?" are definately not edifying. I have long ago forgiven anyone who mocks my faith. How can you go on a public forum and not have? So, Nick-Loves-Abba, don't worry about it. But please everybody...listen, then respond. Make sure you've read over something twice...I 'm sure you've missed something. I know I do.

Love of Christ,

Neal
 
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VOW

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To Nick:

Salvation isn't something you lose like your car keys.

Salvation is lost by SINNING. Look around you! People you KNOW who are Christians are not perfect! But any sin turns you away from God. And sin is committed through Free Will. You deliberately make the choice between "good" and "bad" and choose "bad" when you sin.

The glory, the wonder, the absolute LOVE of the Gift of Salvation is that God will forgive you. He will never turn His back on YOU. But you must be willing to humble yourself, to say, "Boy, God, I'm SORRY. I screwed up, didn't I?" And He will smile and offer you His hand and help you up again to walk the path of Righteousness.

Even St Paul said that he must stay the course! Don't you think Paul wanted to cuss a blue streak if he stubbed his toe on a rock while walking from church to church?

Acceptance of the Gift of Grace merely sets you on the path of Righteousness. God doesn't give you a piggy back ride, you have to WALK through Life to get to Heaven. God will certainly help you all He can, but the ONLY way you can be completely assured of total OSAS is to DIE right after you are "saved." Because every waking hour, every breath you take, you are surrounded by sin. The fact that you may have Christian strength to turn your head and say, "No thanks" doesn't eliminate the mere existence of sin around you! Turn on the TV, drive down the street, go into any store, and you will be inundated with Satan's temptations!


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Originally posted by VOW
To Me4Him:


And please don't talk down to me, or accuse me of limiting my understanding of the Bible to just a few verses. I'm a Catholic, I believe in Sacred Scripture AND Sacred Tradition, and I'm giving you the wealth of the wisdom of the Early Church Fathers.

This forum is for discussion, NOT condescension.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

When you buy a "jig saw puzzle", do you know why it has "picture" on the box of what the completed puzzle will look like???

It's to help you figure out where the peices go.

"Green grass" pieces don't go up where the "blue sky" pieces goes and blue sky pieces don't belong down where the green grass grows.


Because people don't have a "Mental image" of the complete Bible, a general outline, from start to finish, they try to fit verses where they don't belong.

From Adam until Abraham, (1948 years, no law or prophets)
From Abraham until Jesus (App: 2000 years, "Law and prophets", God and Israel)
From Jesus until now. (App 2000 years, Jesus, Holy Ghost and Gentiles, Church age)


The point being that God doesn't deal with the Jews and Gentiles at the same time or in the same manner. This why the church must be rapture before Daniels 70th week can be finished. (Trib)

The Jews were a "Choice" God made, and even though they have now become "enemies of the Gospel", God hasn't "Changed his mind" they're still "ELECT".

Your "works" can't save you and neither can "works" unsave you, as with the Jews, and God is no respector of persons in applying his "laws".

Salvation isn't "for the sake of the believer", it's isn't for "your benefit", it's for the "SAKE OF THE FATHER" and "HIS PURPOSES".


To lose one's salvation would mean that God "FAILED" in making the right choice, "FOR HIS SAKE".

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved ......"for the fathers' sakes".
 
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VOW

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To Me4Him:

Are you proposing predestination? That God has chosen His Elect, and Free Will isn't part of the picture?

Salvation does not depend on our own works, this is true; but it does require we ACCEPT it. All of the Scripture you have used to validate OSAS deal with the acceptance of Christ, and the fact that God cannot withdraw His Grace from anyone. It's true, God does not change His mind.

However, you have failed to accommodate the Scriptural references I supplied. The two Gospel verses in Matthew (10:22 & 24:3) both mentioned WILL BE SAVED. The word "will" implies a future event, not a present one. And Paul's repeated message in 1 Corinthians (4: 3-5, 9: 26-27, 10:12) all talk about a race, or a journey, and also the possibility of failure.

The entire message must be incorporated to get the full meaning of Salvation.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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VOW

If salvation unto Christians is by grace, the only thing you could do is to reject it, not accept it.

Israel did not have a choice in their freedom from bondage from the Pharaoh of Egypt. The only thing they could do with their freedom from bondage and the free salvation from slavery is to not reject it.

When they rejected their salvation as it was given them from God, is when their free salvation from slavery was considered a rejection of God, "as" God intened them to be free in their walk with God. They needed to follow Moses to the promise land . The elders of Israel failed and never saw the promise land, for God let them wander around for 4o years until the elders died and only the children of the elders were left, who did not know the old ways and other gods of Egypt. That is when God let them into the promise land, and not until the 40 years were up and the elders dead.

Love IN Christ - Hervey
 
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Shane Roach

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Yesd, Hervey. Exactly. And some accepted God as far as the desert, but stopped in the middle of the race, and after repeatedly doing so, lost the promise of the land.

The Bible states very plainly that some fall away. I find it hard to believe that the verses aren't already posted but let me scan back....
 
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Shane Roach

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Originally posted by Christi
Just speaking from my personal experience....I spent YEARS and YEARS out of fellowship with God after salvation. I did what I wanted to do. I never stopped believing in Him, but I did not let Him into my life. In my experience "He chased me back down". He put so many Christians in my life, so many "co-incidences", He popped up into EVERYTHING. I couldn't get away if I wanted to! I was drinking and dancing at a bar one night, and someone I didn't even KNOW came up to me and said, "Remember, God loves you." and walked off. A lady in a mall marched right up to me and said she felt like she'd like to pray for me, if I didn't mind. It was in another city, she didn't know me at all, but she prayed that I would find my way back to "My First Love". To me, it has always reminded me of the one lost sheep, that the shepherd leaves the flock to go searching for. He is good.

I love stories like this. I can't count on all my fingers and toes the number of times I've been seriously irritated, and even thought it was very un-Christian, for people to be so agresively evnagelical. Then something like this happens to me! There is a verse in the Bible about how Jesus says of His generation, "we have piped for you, and you have not danced. We have mourned to you and you have not lamented." (Matt 11:17) It means so much to me because so many times people will not accept God for any reason that comes to hand. Some reject Him for being too nice (forgive WHO??) some for being too strict (judge WHO?) But it is not the teaching being rejected, it is the person of God. It doesn't matter how you present things, agresive or passive, soft or strict, some people simply will not be turned, and yet those who are know God will recognize God in everything that happens to them.
 
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Shane Roach

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Originally posted by pstroke
Hebrews 6:4-6 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.

This verse allows for no disembling about whether or not someone can be "saved" in the sense of accepting Christ in the very deepest sense of the word and still turn against Jesus. The argument goes, well, they weren't the elect. True enough, but not being of the elect doesn't mean you had not tasted of salvation.

At a certain point this discussion breaks open into the subject of whether or not it is even possible that we have free will. But as far as OSAS vs backsliding, I think it is clear that one can backslide, so long as one admits that God is also able to prevent backsliding.

Then one asks, "why was this one allowed to backslide and that one not?" I don't believe this question is fully answered in the Bbile, but you may as well ask why anyone is ever saved and anyone is ever damned. I usually, in my own heart, believe it has to do with people who want peace and love. But whatever it is, I trust God to judge rightly. Goodness knows there's not much I can do about it if He doesn't. But I just feel very strongly that He will.
 
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Originally posted by VOW
To Me4Him:

Are you proposing predestination? That God has chosen His Elect, and Free Will isn't part of the picture?

Salvation does not depend on our own works, this is true; but it does require we ACCEPT it. All of the Scripture you have used to validate OSAS deal with the acceptance of Christ, and the fact that God cannot withdraw His Grace from anyone. It's true, God does not change His mind.

However, you have failed to accommodate the Scriptural references I supplied. The two Gospel verses in Matthew (10:22 & 24:3) both mentioned WILL BE SAVED. The word "will" implies a future event, not a present one. And Paul's repeated message in 1 Corinthians (4: 3-5, 9: 26-27, 10:12) all talk about a race, or a journey, and also the possibility of failure.

The entire message must be incorporated to get the full meaning of Salvation.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

God made the earth in "six days" and "rested on the seventh", that's "ALL" he "planned", no "predestination" of sin.

When Adam sinned he "Created" an "eighth day", a "day of sin".

The "eighth day" is the day sin entered, Jesus removed it, (Resurrected on the "eighth day" (first day of the week) and God will Judge it, (Great white throne judgment, day after the "seventh day of rest", (Millennium reign).

This is why the "Eighth day" is known as a "day of new beginning" in the Bible, you can see why.

Matt 24, up to the Fig tree parable, "ISN'T" written to the church, it's rapture before the trib starts. This is "instructions" left to the Jews who will become believers during the trib.

My point was that, regardless if it's a Nation or individual, when God makes a Choice, it's "forever".

We are "Saved" in the "present", "Sealed" by the Spirit.

Joh 9:31 Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.

Does God hear you?? If he does you're "saved".

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, (been saved, Passed tense) because we love the brethren.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Short answer, but I need to run, more later.
 
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VOW

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To Shane:

yet those who are know God will recognize God in everything that happens to them.

So true, so TRUE!

In almost twenty-eight years of marriage, my husband and I have crossed some really rocky terrain. When we're in the midst of our troubles, it's easy to become flat-out discouraged, you just want to sit right where you are and say, "Forget THIS!" We learned to stay the course, though, to the point where we even have a little saying, "Just wait, things will work out. They always do, and often times in ways that we'd never dream!" That little bit of encouragement we give each other has gotten us through a LOT of grief!

And it is because of this, I don't believe in coincidences any more. I think God has always been right there, beside us, TRYING to knock some sense into our heads, LOL!

Looking back, I can see some of our worst catastrophes eventually leading into our greatest joys! I am so grateful that God not only continues to give us opportunities, but that He never gives up on us!


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Shane Roach

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This about the end times seems off topic. But I see this whole subject digs deep into people's entire view of the nature of reality on a lot of levels!

I thought the Revelation made it very plain thouigh that the Jews sealed for Christ were sealed after the tribulation, but were saved already. They were perfect, the 144,000, and they could hardly be so without Christ.

This probably really does deserve another thread, but at the same time I understand, like I said, the nature of the whole discussion can get all encompassing.
 
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LouisBooth

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"I don't understand the OSAS position that Free Will is extinguished upon Salvation. "

Just a comment as the conversation goes on and I got left out and trying to catch up....Well if that is so VOW (refering to the quote) then how can free will exsist when you are a slave to sin (ie fallen from grace). It doesn't. Slaves don't have a free will :)
 
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Shane Roach

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"I don't understand the OSAS position that Free Will is extinguished upon Salvation. "

Just a comment as the conversation goes on and I got left out and trying to catch up....Well if that is so VOW (refering to the quote) then how can free will exsist when you are a slave to sin (ie fallen from grace). It doesn't. Slaves don't have a free will :)

Yes but how do you ANSWER Hebrews 6:4-6. If they "crucify unto themselves the Son of God afresh", then who is doing the crucifying? Is it God? If they are indeed the ones doing it, then how are they doing it? By God's will? No! No one is tempted even of God, but are drawn away in temptation by their own lusts. (James 1:13-14 I think) So were they "saved"? They tasted the Holy Spirit. Doesn't that imply baptism? Perhaps that is the weak point there, but it says they have partaken of the Holy Spirit, and tasted the good word and the powers of the world to come. Did God forsake them? By no means! So where is the fault then? It seems the only place left to look for it is in the will of the sinner.

I'm stumped for any other way to look at it Biblically. What follows is a proper understanding of the balance between free will and predestiny themselves, so that both are rectified to the rest of scripture. I say God has pulled a conceptual miracle, and has created both simultaneously, (Forest Gump-like! "I think both of them. Both of them happening at the same time maybe?") (Forgive if I misquoted it a bit. I like that movie though. :))

God, after all, is far above us. *shrugs* Who can know His ways?

For the poor agnostic or open minded atheist reading this, yes, I understand it gives you a headache. :) Sorry. But I don't accept that God can't do something that is conceptually impossible. If I think about it long and hard, I tend to see life itself as both conceptually impossible and yet irrefutably in existence. *shrugs*
 
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