paganism in the churches

Status
Not open for further replies.

Blackhawk

Monkey Boy
Feb 5, 2002
4,930
73
52
Ft. Worth, tx
Visit site
✟22,925.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I have a question for all the anti-Christmas tree people.

Okay how many people when they put up Christmas trees this December are thinking about some pagan god?

I would say maybe 1 in thousand maybe even lower odds then that.

What is my point? My point is that things change over time. No one attributes Christmas to some pagan god anymore. It is now a time to celebrate the Immanuel. That God was with us. So I think it is fine and as Shakespeare would say "Much to do about nothing." Paul even said it was okay to eat the meat that was offered to idols. So why is it wrong to do a practice that was once done to a pagan god but has been done for the real God for many, many years? I just do not see the big deal. I thought we were not under the old covenant any longer. That we had freedom in Christ.

BH6
 
Upvote 0
BH6

My my , which translation of the bible are your reading from ?

Paul did not say that it was alright to eat meat offered unto idols ! - I Corinthians 10:28 - "But if any man say unto you , This is offered in sacrifice unto idols , eat not for his sake that showed it, and for conscience sake ; for the earth is the Lord's (God), and the fulness thereof"

The so called Christmas tree has nothing to do with the old covenant. It however has everything to do with that which it came from --- Idol worship !

We do not have that kind of freedom ! The freedom spoken about in the Word, is the freedom from the bondage of the law !

God does not want anything that represents idol worship to be used in any manner to reflect Christianity !!

God said to love him with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength. I would think, that just knowing where the idea of a christmas tree came from, would be enough knowledge (mind) , to know that it has nothing whatsoever to do, or that it does not represent anything that pertains to Christianity !

Take it from one who knows what he is talking about .

L I C - Hervey
 
Upvote 0

Blackhawk

Monkey Boy
Feb 5, 2002
4,930
73
52
Ft. Worth, tx
Visit site
✟22,925.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Hervey,

You forgot the verses around it and the point. Basically he said it was okay but do not do it if it causes your weaker brother to stumble. So he said it was okay to eat but do not do it in some circumstances.

1 Cor 10:27-31
27 If one of the unbelievers invites you and you want to go, eat anything that is set before you without asking questions for conscience' sake.
28 But if anyone says to you, "This is meat sacrificed to idols," do not eat {it} for the sake of the one who informed {you} and for conscience' sake;
29 I mean not your own conscience, but the other {man's;} for why is my freedom judged by another's conscience?
30 If I partake with thankfulness, why am I slandered concerning that for which I give thanks?
31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
(NAU)


Here Paul is again espousing our freedom in Christ.

Rom 14:1-23

CHAPTER 14

1 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, {but} not for {the purpose of} passing judgment on his opinions.
2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables {only.}
3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day {alike.} Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
12 So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this-- not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18 For he who in this {way} serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or {to do anything} by which your brother stumbles.
22 The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because {his eating is} not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
(NAU)
 
Upvote 0

Blackhawk

Monkey Boy
Feb 5, 2002
4,930
73
52
Ft. Worth, tx
Visit site
✟22,925.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Hervey,

"The so called Christmas tree has nothing to do with the old covenant. It however has everything to do with that which it came from --- Idol worship !"

Is not something idol worship if you ascribe to it idol worship? What i mean is that th tree is just a tree. if I am worshipping God while using a tree as help does that mean I am worshipping an idol? I am never praying, or even thinking of some other god or idol. So how can that be idol worship? Oh wait it came from idol worship 1,500 years ago. okay so any use of trees is out right? So are crosses right? They are really pagan in origin.

"We do not have that kind of freedom ! The freedom spoken about in the Word, is the freedom from the bondage of the law ! "

true.

"God does not want anything that represents idol worship to be used in any manner to reflect Christianity !!"

Again doesn't idol worship have to do with worshipping other gods? i ma not doing that so itis not idol worship.

"God said to love him with all of your heart, soul, mind and strength. I would think, that just knowing where the idea of a christmas tree came from, would be enough knowledge (mind) , to know that it has nothing whatsoever to do, or that it does not represent anything that pertains to Christianity !"

now tell me before you heard that some pagans 1,500 years ago used to use have a day somethign like the modern day celebration of Christmas who were you worshipping during Christmas? Did you ever say to yourself "This must be pagan." What do you think people ascribe Christmas to? Some old pagan god or the one and only God?

See my point?

BH6
 
Upvote 0
BH6

Please read I Corinth. 10:27 - 29 much closer.

If an unbeliever asks you to eat with him (them) don't ask , just eat.

But, but

If you know that this meat is offered unto Idol's , then you are not suppose to eat it, for two reasons.

#1 - for consience sake of the one who informed you
#2 - for the sake of consience (your own)

Verse 28 is talking about your consience , if you considered eating, and not setting the example . Knowing full well that this was offered unto Idol's
Verse 29 is talking about not being judged by another man's consience

WE as Christians are to set the example, and if we know that this food was offered unto Idol's , it is not our consience that would be the concern , but the consience of the one who informed you that it was food being offered unto idol's.

We are not to eat, to set the example unto others, and the one who informs you . Your consience should not be judged by another man's consience, but you should still set the example.

You should not be combining I Corinth. chapter 10 with Romans 14. Romans 14 is talkling about a brother , and if they be weak in faith, not to put something in front of them to stumble. While I Corinth. is talking basically about two things. You can not eat at the Lord's table and the table of devils at the same time (COTEXT). These are also unbelievers , of which you want to set an example unto them of your faith, so that they can be saved - I Corinth. 10:33. I Corinth. 10:31 tells us to do all to the glory of the Lord. All means all, and our examples sometimes speak louder than words. That includes that known idol worship of the xmas tree and the symbols that are on the tree and what they represent.

You might not be worshipping idol's, but you are not setting the example for other's to follow either , by having a tree that was decorated for the worship of idol's either.

The tree like the meat were offered unto idol's and by having a tree (xmas), you set the example for other's to follow, and true Christianity always does everything to the glory of God. This would not be an example that would glorify God in any way !

Do you see the point I am trying to make ??

L I C - Hervey
 
Upvote 0

Blackhawk

Monkey Boy
Feb 5, 2002
4,930
73
52
Ft. Worth, tx
Visit site
✟22,925.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Hervey,

your post just proved my point. It is okay but if another weaker brother has a problem with it then for example's sake then you should just not do it but it is lawful. That is why Paul says "Conscience, I say, not thine own, but of the other..." 1 Cor 10:29. See the conscience he was speaking of was the other person's conscience. This is to explain what conscience he was speaking of in verse 28.

Commentaries agree with my interpretation.

This is from Matthew Henry's commentary

V. He urges them to refrain where they will give offence, while yet he allows it lawful to eat what was set before them as common food, though it had been offered in sacrifice.


So it is lawful to eat it unless a brother has a problem with it and then do not do it because it might cause the weaker brother to stumble. That is the only reason not to do it. You do not want others to stumble away from God.

"These are also unbelievers , of which you want to set an example unto them of your faith, so that they can be saved - I Corinth. 10:33. I Corinth. 10:31 tells us to do all to the glory of the Lord. All means all, and our examples sometimes speak
louder than words."

I agree in part. i agree that we do all things to the glory of God. aAnd that is what I do when I celebrate Christmas. I do not think about a pagan god. maybe I should not do it because you might stumble if you know I do it but that is all. Let's look at some other verses that speak about food.

1 Tim. 4:4
For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

1Ti 4:5
For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.


Tts 1:15 Unto the pure all things [are] pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving [is] nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

These verses even more clearly show that the meat was fine even if it was offeed unto idols. we are speaking of course that one is not particpating in offering it up to idols. Which one is also not participating in worshipping some pagan god when one puts up a Christmas tree.

"You might not be worshipping idol's, but you are not setting the example for other's to follow either , by having a tree that was decorated for the worship of idol's either."

Okay I have gone on with this long enough. If you want to bring up something that no one even remembered or thought of for like 1,500 years and then say I should not do it then I disagree. Thee has to be a limit in where you take 1 Cor. 10. Wonder if I thought it was wrong to read the bible except while standing. Would you never sit and read the Bible? no. So I guess maybe it comes down to just me not telling you that I put a Christmas tree up and celebrate Christmas. But I think it is crazy to bring up something that is so old just to creat e a controversy. I am not actually saying that you are the one who is doing this but many have done this.
They prey on the weaker believers who do not realize that they are free in Christ and make them put on a yoke of slavery to the law. If you want to put on that yoke then it is fine by me but I will not!

BH6
 
Upvote 0
BH6

You said - "Okay I have gone on with this long enough. If you want to bring up something that no one even remembered or thought of for like 1,500 years and then say I should not do it then I disagree. Thee has to be a limit in where you take 1 Cor. 10. Wonder if I thought it was wrong to read the bible except while standing. Would you never sit and read the Bible? no. So I guess maybe it comes down to just me not telling you that I put a Christmas tree up and celebrate Christmas. But I think it is crazy to bring up something that is so old just to creat e a controversy. I am not actually saying that you are the one who is doing this but many have done this.
They prey on the weaker believers who do not realize that they are free in Christ and make them put on a yoke of slavery to the law. If you want to put on that yoke then it is fine by me but I will not! '"

Talking about the reason that the xmas tree was originally used and for what purpose , is not putting a yoke of bondage of the law upon anyone ! If you know that something is of idol worship, then know that it is not to the glory of God. In this, I do not see any yoke of bondage to the law whatsoever here.

I do not celebrate Christmas whatsoever , in any form or fashion. I esteem every day alike , unto the Lord God. Yet, in talking with others who do celebrate. They try and make me feel like I am doing something wrong by not celebrating a man made holiday , according to pagan traditions. How can I be the one who should be feeling guilty for not forming my examples in life to man made idealisms and paganism examples ?

If people want to think that eating meat offered unto Idol's is something God said was alright, that is their business. But those who want to follow the will of God, then they will do what it says to do in I Corinth. 10:28.

I also suggest reading Galatians 4:9 - 11

It is those who do such things , who put themselves back under bondage. Not the one's who do not do such things by their examples of not celebrating xmas ! Nor the one's who talk about not doing such things as celebrating xmas in the traditional manner of mankind (men), under bondage, nor do they put others under bondage.

But one does have to ask one's self, if what they are doing is truly to the glory of God !

L I C - Hervey
 
Upvote 0

rwc109

Well-Known Member
Feb 18, 2002
902
5
meditation moving mighty mountains - more moonston
✟1,275.00
Faith
Marital Status
Engaged
Dear filosofer,
The three kings were from the East, look East from the Holy land.... Babylon... the kings were keepig THEIR tradition of bribing the new king with gifts [a custom the Bible speaks AGAINST and which 'christians' nevertheless keep.... as with birth days [from astrology] the origin is Babylonian , not in Christ... Jesus was born but never had a 'birthday', it was never part of his culture of belief. their are no 'birthdays' recorded in the Bible and we do not celebrate Jesus' death as Passover as he suggested we could if worthy, but NO-ONE told anyone to start celebrating birthdays at all let alone Jesus' UNKNOWN day of birth... God never meant us to or He would have written it down... the irony is that what IS written down , the celebration of his death in PASSOVER is NOT celebrated!!!
 
Upvote 0

Caedmon

kawaii
Site Supporter
Dec 18, 2001
17,359
570
R'lyeh
✟49,383.00
Faith
Catholic
Politics
US-Others
Originally posted by lambslove
When did I say they did? I said they were objects of pagan worship. Not the same thing. Suppose I had an image of Buddha in my house that I decorated up with lights and stuff and said that I was celebrating Resurrection Day with it? Wouldn't you think I'd lost my mind? Decorating Buddha doesn't make it a Christian object! It's still an object of worship for a foreign god.

Ditto Christmas trees. It doesn't matter if I worship the tree, or worship the god associated with the tree, as long as I cling to it as a necessary part of my celebration of Christ, I am interweaving paganism into my faith.

This is a very poor analogy. A buddha statue doesn't symbolize spring as a returning season of new life; an evergreen does. Furthermore, no buddhist in his right mind would put Christmas lights on a buddha statue! And who said a Christmas tree is necessary? :scratch:

And I like cookies. But eating cookies isn't intermixing paganism with Christianity like having a Christmas tree is! Liking something isn't a good reason to defile your faith!

Where do you think the Gingerbreadman came from?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

VOW

Moderator
Feb 7, 2002
6,912
15
71
*displaced* CA, soon to be AZ!
Visit site
✟28,000.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
At Christmas, in our Church, a virtual FOREST of trees and poinsettias are found along the front wall, behind the altar. They typically have ONLY lights, and just white ones. It looks like a little forest. Smells good, too!

In the entryway, there are several trees, and instead of ornaments, there are paper tags with gift suggestions. We collect those and then when we go Christmas shopping, we buy the things listed on the tags, which are donated to shelters in our area. I've always considered that to be a lovely idea!


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
Upvote 0

Catchup

Well-Known Member
Feb 20, 2002
917
1
Earth bound
Visit site
✟2,012.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I am far from an authority on this so please correct me where I am wrong...

I believe that most if not all the dates that we celebrate or worship are wrong.

(1) the Sabbath is Saturday... the day God set aside for rest and worship. Jesus never moved it to Sunday.

(2) Christmas?? A pagan tree holiday. Jesus was not born in the winter. This was an existing holiday that the Catholic Church used because the Pagans were flowing in, and it would make them happy to keep their celebration.

Kinda like you gals, having a birthday party for your new husband on your old husband's birthday. :rolleyes:

(3) Jesus was the passover lamb at his crucifixion. But the Jewish passover and Easter are not always together.I think the day we use to celebrate Easter is really another pagan holiday. Its timing has nothing to do with Jesus. It was a holiday for the god of fertility. That is why we have the rabbits and eggs at Easter.

Am I right?
Are there even more?
Why are we such screw-ups? :sorry:

Most important...Should we just keep on keeping on?
Or should we at least try to do it right?

What day do you want to have Christmas? :D

:) LOVE
 
Upvote 0

VOW

Moderator
Feb 7, 2002
6,912
15
71
*displaced* CA, soon to be AZ!
Visit site
✟28,000.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
To Catchup:

You wanna rename the days of the week and the months of the year, too?

Birthday celebrations were to rejoice over the fact that the baby lived another year without dying. Let's get rid of that pagan birthday cake!

Pinatas are popular here in California, I'm sure they have some ritual Aztec murder ceremony behind them. The tamales the Latino families fix at Christmas no doubt are pagan as well.

GET A LIFE. FYI, COMMUNION is as pagan as it gets! If you start eliminating everything that may or may not have a pagan origin, you'll end up ditching everything and living in a cave.

No, wait, that's pagan too.


Peace,
~VOW
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

seebs

God Made Me A Skeptic
Apr 9, 2002
31,914
1,529
18
Saint Paul, MN
Visit site
✟55,225.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Originally posted by Catchup

(1) the Sabbath is Saturday... the day God set aside for rest and worship. Jesus never moved it to Sunday.

Which do you think God is asking of us?

1. Count every 7th day precisely for the rest of history.
2. Make sure to regularly take some time off from other things in your life for fellowship and worship.


(2) Christmas?? A pagan tree holiday. Jesus was not born in the winter. This was an existing holiday that the Catholic Church used because the Pagans were flowing in, and it would make them happy to keep their celebration.

And God cares a lot about this, because precision of calendar is *MUCH* more important to him than the question of whether people are remembering to spend some time with their families, and celebrate Christ's birth?


(3) Jesus was the passover lamb at his crucifixion. But the Jewish passover and Easter are not always together.I think the day we use to celebrate Easter is really another pagan holiday. Its timing has nothing to do with Jesus. It was a holiday for the god of fertility. That is why we have the rabbits and eggs at Easter.

If so, so what? It is a time when we commemerate something, and it doesn't really matter *exactly* when.


Most important...Should we just keep on keeping on? Or should we at least try to do it right?

What day do you want to have Christmas? :D

December 25th, so I never forget my anniversary (which is the 26th).

"Doing it right" is essentially irrelevant; it's not as though it's particularly meaningful to say whether the calendar is still right after 2,000 years. (Just think about the number of leap days in that time... it adds up.) The important part is that we remember to take these things seriously, at all, not what day they're on.
 
Upvote 0

Catchup

Well-Known Member
Feb 20, 2002
917
1
Earth bound
Visit site
✟2,012.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
To Catchup:

Thanks for the BD wishes..............however, you're either early or late. My BD is in December.


Why are you so specific about the date?? :scratch:

Is it important to you? :p

Doesn't it seem kinda silly to want to be accurate? :rolleyes:

(2) Christmas?? A pagan tree holiday. Jesus was not born in the winter. This was an existing holiday that the Catholic Church used because the Pagans were flowing in, and it would make them happy to keep their celebration.

Kinda like you gals, having a birthday party for your new husband on your old husband's birthday.

:) LOVE
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Catchup

Well-Known Member
Feb 20, 2002
917
1
Earth bound
Visit site
✟2,012.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
No doubt. Not only that but I firmly believe that God can make something good out of something that was used incorrectly or for bad practices.

Now I get it...Goddidit :D

That may be your belief but I think the Catholic Church did it...to accommodate the pagans.

I think God knows what day his son was born and died.

I think it is important to him as the Heavenly Father.

Throw out the pagan holidays!

It is never too late to start doing it right!

:) LOVE
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.