Are some going to be drinking a lot of coffee? Will some have insomnia
I like mine black and yes it does give me insomnia, unfortunately i have a fresh cup in front of me, it's a never ending cycle.
Sorry, couldn't resist.
Upvote
0
Are some going to be drinking a lot of coffee? Will some have insomnia
They sit in comfort and disclaim the anguish of others who are strong in Christ.
quote:
Originally posted by The Messenger
GW you have lost all contact with reality, more christians have died in the 20th century than any other time in history.
There is nearly zero persecution of Christianity in the entire Western Hemisphere. Europe also has little to no persecution of Christians. China is on its way to conversion. Other pacific rim countries are being evangelized rapidly.
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church!"
--Tertullian
Originally posted by TheBear
Okay then. In all of your interprative explanations, you completely bypassed verses 51 to 53 of 1 Cor. 15.
"51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
Originally posted by TheBear
Please elaborate on those verses, please. For example, what does he mean when he says we shall not all sleep?
Originally posted by GW
Can I assume that you understood Paul's link between the victory over death and the removal of the Law of Moses (1 Cor 15:55-56)? Did you follow that Paul believed resurrection of the dead would occur in his generation and that "The Dead" Paul was talking about were in Hades at that time (the place of the O.T. dead) and not Heaven or hell? If so, it's easier to proceed. I'll assume you will say "yes" if only for the sake of moving to an explanation of HOW.
Eternal life was granted to ALL the saints at AD 70 (both the living and the dead). Jesus said that eternal life was going to arrive at "the age to come" (Luke 18:30). That was spoken by Jesus during the Old Testament period and looked ahead to the New Covenant Age. And so we see the saints of the last days period of the Old Testament Economy still awaiting eternal life to come (Titus 1:2; Titus 3:7; Jude 1:21; 1 Jn 2:25; Mark 10:30). The destruction of the Temple would mark the "end of the Old Covenant Age" (Matt 24:3), which is when eternal life would be granted in fullness to the Church (Luke 18:30).
Paul's teaching on the granting of eternal life to the Church at the very close of the Old Covenant Era shows that it would impact two camps of saints: (1)The Dead and (2) the Living. The entire Church was to be changed by this bestowal of eternal life from Jesus, but only THE DEAD were to be "raised" (1 Cor 15:52; 1 Thess 4:16). That is, of course, why the teaching is called the "Resurrection of the dead."
(1) "Sleep" means "to die physically."
(2) Only the dead only are "raised incorruptible" out of Hades at the last trumpet (1 Thess 4:15; 1 Cor 15:52; 1 Cor 15:55-56).
(3) And ALL the Church was "changed."
Paul had just explained from 15:35-50 that "resurrection of the dead" is for the dead, and he specifically was thinking of the O.T. saints and contemporary loved ones who had died but were still one people with the Church living on earth (see Heb 11:39-49). Paul explained in detail how the living must die to participate in the "resurrection of the dead (15:35-50). Obvious point. Therefore, if the dead were to be raised at the same time that the entire Church received eternal life then it stands to reason that all the living would instantly die. Paul had just taught them that the saint is NOT "made alive" unless he/she dies (1 Cor 15:36). The process is explained in 1 Cor 15:35-50 and paralleled by 2 Cor 5:1-2) So Paul tells them that the living at that time (the camp Paul believed he would be among -- 1 Thess 4:15; 1 Cor 15:52), would NOT DIE and be raised incorruptible, but rather would be changed by the granting of eternal life. This "change" for the living included their adoption as sons, redemption, entrance into the Kingdom, salvation, and many other promises that were being held "with an earnest/pledge" and were yet-future hopes to them (Eph 1:13-14; Heb 9:28; Rom 13:11; 1 Peter 1:5; Rom 8:21-25; Titus 1:2; 1 Jn 2:25). This "change" for THE DEAD included getting to exit Hades to go to their eternal inheritance in Heaven (Heb 10:34-39; 1 Cor 15:55-56; 1 Peter 1:3-5; Rev 20:12-15).
So the living did not become vampires when eternal life was granted to the Church (the change); but they did become the fully adopted and manifested sons of God (Romans 8:14-19) and recipients of the redemption/salvation. All the New Covenant blessings were fully granted and the Law curse was gone. The Church of the living has labored under a New Covenant ever since -- the change is as different as the covenant dispensations themselves.
The O.T. dead saints did not become vampires at the time eternal life was granted to the Church either; but they did in a blink of an eye exit the hadean realm and enter Heaven to be in their immortal, eternal inheritance with the Blessed Trinity (Heb 10:34-39; 1 Peter 1:3-5; Daniel 12:13).
Originally posted by TheBear
What is the meaning of the following scripture?
1 Cor 15:51-57
"51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O Death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."
Thanks,
John
quote by GW
Your attempt to assign Gal 4:1-5:5 as fulfilled and Romans 8:14-25 as unfulfilled until some second coming is an error, and a big one.THEY ARE PARALLEL PASSAGES and speak of the one and the same exact "bondage"
Hi Phoenix, and Christ's blessings.Originally posted by Phoenix
How do the full preterists see this being fulfilled ?
(Rev 20:4-6 NIV) I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. {5} (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. {6} Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Thanks
Originally posted by Willis Deal
Mani, this will be my last post to you. I recognize the futility of continuing so I'll wrap this up. Death is not mentioned in Genesis prior to God's warning to man not to eat the fruit. The next time death appears is in context of the curse which falls upon Adam for eating the fruit. The verse clearly says 'Because you have done this', and 'from dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return' indicating that God is talking about PHYSICAL death and going on to explain to Adam the full consequences, that he would lose his mortal body. There isn't any indication from the BIBLE that Adam was to ever die a physical death before he sined. But the PHYSICAL death is tied directly to all the other curses which came about BECAUSE of Adam's sin. And please note before you start tossing around 'the traditions of men'. PHYSICAL death is the only sort of death mentioned in GENESIS as a result of sin. There is NO mention of a 'spiritual' death.
I do not believe God lied, and showed from the bible where God delayed judgement because of his mercy.
My physical death trumps your spiritual death, fully supported from the bible.
End of discussion.
Paul does not separate them. Only your presuppositions do, and by thousands of years at that -- something foreign to Paul. Gal 4:1-11 and Romans 8:14-25 are identical in every way. You ASSUME that the Galatians passage was a complete redemption (which it clearly was not -- Gal 5:5; Gal 4:8-12; 4:19-20*; 5:1-5). That forced you to make an absurd error that says they speak of two different things separated by thousands of years. They clearly speak of the exact same thing.Originally posted by The Messenger
yes they are parralel, except that Paul speaks of the spiritual redemption in one set(Galatians) and in another set(Romans 8) he also mentions the physical redemption, he speaks of the spiritual redemption as a present reality for him, then he also speaks of the physical redemption as a promise waiting to be fulfilled. they are seperate events...he spoke of them as seperate events.
Very wrong. You are NOT presently redeemed in Paul's theology. Being filled with the Spirit is NOT the redemption as you suppose, but a mere pledge of some future occurence:Originally posted by The Messenger
it is the same for me, i presently have the Holy Spirit, i am presently redeemed from Law having received the spirit of sonship(blood bought by Christ on the cross)
Originally posted by TheBear
I'm sorry, GW. Your lenghtly explaination is very creative, and extermely dubious. How long did it take the preterists to design that one? It all sounds too hoakey to me.....Taking something simple, then making it multi-layered and extremely complex, is the classic trademark of many a cult.
I won't bother you with any more questions.
Take care,
John
Originally posted by parousia70
How silly of me to momentarily forget your perpensity to apply the "double fulfillment" theory to prophesies that a single fulfillment dosen't fit your paradigm.
Originally posted by parousia70
I'm not clear about one thing here. Are you implying God is incapable of using the term "earth" as a metaphore for a city, nation or government without being an idiot or a Liar?
Originally posted by Acts6:5
By the way, I am in between Partial and Full Preterism at this point - an "On-the-Fence" Preterist, so to speak, and my eschatological bent has absolutely nothing to do with any "lack of faith in our Lord's promised return", as Thunder wrongly surmised in his original post. No Christian ever espouses the preterist viewpoint due to a "lack of faith", I can assure you of that. Quite the opposite, in fact.