Good points there P70
A question to my futurist friends:
Can you give me a "biblically referenced" answer to the presence of sin and evil men in the New Heaven and New Earth -note this is the New Heaven and Earth, NOT the Millenium. This re-created world YOU are saying is sinless and perfect with nothing bad. So please explain the following:
Rev 22:2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Healing presupposes SICKNESS which presupposes SIN -and ALL this in the final abode of eternal bliss. -and if it doesn't, please explain HOW.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
We may debate what or who the "City" is -but what do YOU do with these "bad" people, from whence do they come, how do they come to be in this physical New Creation of yours which as YOU say comes at the final end -AFTER EVERYTHING???
A biblical response would be appreciated, nothing highfalutin just biblical would be fine.
John, an interesting quote. I think the phrase "in modern times" is very important. Clearly there was futuristic thinking in ages past. The same applies with Preteristic thinking etc. It is wrong to try and claim certain persons as being futurists or preterists or any other such thing for that matter. That however does not mean some things/persons were not "preteristic" in their thinking -this goes for "futuristic thinking as well.
The point the "fulfilled camp" is trying to make is this: When Jesus and His Apostles spoke/wrote "futuristically" it was from their 1st century perspective, and in context was applyed to IT, not our 21st century world. Because God's Word IS eternal and true it applies across the aeons of time as in we apply the principles of Scripture to our lives -but using the Scriptures as a "road map" in determining our worlds current events etc we see as a misuse and a travesty of truth, as we see the prophetic/eschatological element as relating in the 1st century context -referring to the ending of the Old Covenant world of Judaism, and therefore the blessings we have today because of that. The prophetic/eschatological element does NOT apply to our 21st century western world -apart from in the "ongoing prophetic sense" which P70 adequately expounded above, and other like Scriptures.
I welcome biblical answers to my above questions.
davo
A question to my futurist friends:
Can you give me a "biblically referenced" answer to the presence of sin and evil men in the New Heaven and New Earth -note this is the New Heaven and Earth, NOT the Millenium. This re-created world YOU are saying is sinless and perfect with nothing bad. So please explain the following:
Rev 22:2 In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Healing presupposes SICKNESS which presupposes SIN -and ALL this in the final abode of eternal bliss. -and if it doesn't, please explain HOW.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
We may debate what or who the "City" is -but what do YOU do with these "bad" people, from whence do they come, how do they come to be in this physical New Creation of yours which as YOU say comes at the final end -AFTER EVERYTHING???
A biblical response would be appreciated, nothing highfalutin just biblical would be fine.
Originally posted by TheBear
Similarly, Dean Henry Alford (Protestant), in the "Prolegomena" to his Greek Testament, declares:
The founder of this system [Futurist] in modern times appears to have been the Jesuit Ribera, about A.D. 1580." (Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 2, part 2, p. 351 [bottom numbering].)
The Praeterist view found no favour, and was hardly so much as thought of , in the times of primitive Christianity. The View is said to have been first promulgated in anything like completeness by the Jesuit Alcasar in 1614. (Ibid, pp. 348, 349 [bottom numbering].)
John [/B]
John, an interesting quote. I think the phrase "in modern times" is very important. Clearly there was futuristic thinking in ages past. The same applies with Preteristic thinking etc. It is wrong to try and claim certain persons as being futurists or preterists or any other such thing for that matter. That however does not mean some things/persons were not "preteristic" in their thinking -this goes for "futuristic thinking as well.
The point the "fulfilled camp" is trying to make is this: When Jesus and His Apostles spoke/wrote "futuristically" it was from their 1st century perspective, and in context was applyed to IT, not our 21st century world. Because God's Word IS eternal and true it applies across the aeons of time as in we apply the principles of Scripture to our lives -but using the Scriptures as a "road map" in determining our worlds current events etc we see as a misuse and a travesty of truth, as we see the prophetic/eschatological element as relating in the 1st century context -referring to the ending of the Old Covenant world of Judaism, and therefore the blessings we have today because of that. The prophetic/eschatological element does NOT apply to our 21st century western world -apart from in the "ongoing prophetic sense" which P70 adequately expounded above, and other like Scriptures.
I welcome biblical answers to my above questions.
davo
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