Futurists vs Preterists

I hope I came across right for my last post. I'm basically trying to say that Jesus is yet to come again. "The Messenger" thats what you thought I said yeah?

Welcome Acts 6:5.

Great to have you here.

God bless,
GW

Which Resurection are you refering to ?

others here and myself have posted much scripture in proper context showing the physical nature of the resurrection. the preterist fought hard to work around it, but failed.


the preterist answer is to distort scripture, to call the cross a "mere death" and to lie to people about definitions of words.

i do not give much theological credence to a philosophy that says the cross was a "mere death" or to people that have to purposfully deceive others in the name of doctrine.

when a person becomes a believer, they attain spiritual life. the spirit never dies only the body, common sense will tell you only what is dead needs "resurrecting"

it is that simple.

GW worked real hard to compare Romans 8:10-11,23 to scripture that pertained to the spiritual redemption, but not the physical, Romans 8 teaches on both the tense thing killed GW's argument, Paul constantly spoke of spiritual redemption as a present (pre70ad) thing he had, and the redemption of the body as a future event. they are 2 different things. "mortal bodies" means mortal bodies, the spirit of a believer is not "mortal" and that my friends, is that

Originally posted by Craigybabe
I hope I came across right for my last post. I'm basically trying to say that Jesus is yet to come again. "The Messenger" thats what you thought I said yeah?

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yup! and i agree!

Originally posted by Acts6:5


And I do find the purpose of this particular thread disturbing. But that's just me.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

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The whole thread should have been shut down after the first post. It's only intent was to denigrate another viewpoint, violating rule 2 of the forum, and it also called the preterists ungodly, which violates rule 5 (that means 40% of the rules of the board were broken by the original post).

-Chris

Rev: 21 v1-2

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth. The first heaven and the first earth had disappeared..."

Firstly lets remember that the creation of the new earth and heaven is one of the last things prophecised to happen.

Now John refers to what God will say to us when the new earth is created:

Rev: 21 v7 - 8

".... Those who win the victory will receive this, and I will be their God, they will be my children. But cowards, those who refuse to believe, who do evil magic, worship idols and who tell lies - all these will have a place in the lake of suphur".


By the time the new earth is created it will be too late for the non- believers to repent. The time building up to this by all means will give us the chance to try and convert the non- believers but when new earth is created all the evil people etc will be destroyed!! PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Only God's people, the believers, the christians who have walked the walk as well as talking the talk will be the only ones left to be a part of the new heaven and earth.

So if this is the new earth then there SHOULD NOT be any sinners left. I'm sorry but with the evidence that I and countless others have given, preterists just can't be justified by what they say.

Originally posted by Craigybabe
when new earth is created all the evil people etc will be destroyed!! PLAIN AND SIMPLE. Only God's people, the believers, the christians who have walked the walk as well as talking the talk will be the only ones left to be a part of the new heaven and earth.

So if this is the new earth then there SHOULD NOT be any sinners left. I'm sorry but with the evidence that I and countless others have given, preterists just can't be justified by what they say.

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Oooops! looks like you overlooked several things here that render your above assertion impossible:

First, Isaiah 65:17-21 clearly states that on the new earth there will still be: Birth, Ageing, Death & Sinners.

Next, Revelation confirms Isaiah

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside [the city,] are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Looks like outside the city, on the new earth are are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Also notice:
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end

In order for His government to perpetually increase, there, by necessity, needs to be a perpetual increase of the number of people who are under his governorship.

Rev. 14:6: "...the Everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth..."

There is no "use by" or "expiration" date for the "everlasting Gospel" which sole purpose is to be preached to sinners on earth. The moment sinners cease to dwell on earth, the "everlasting Gospel" becomes obsolete, which is an oxymoron.

And Lastly, I almost forgot:
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

Craigybabe, Who are the spirit and the bride calling to from inside the city if, as you assert, everyone who's gonna be there is alreay there?

Notice they are calling out to all who thirst.
This can't be referring to those already there because Jesus said "one drink and you will never thirst again."

Craigybabe, who do you suppose is thirsty on the new earth if only the thirstless elect are there?


YBIC,
P70

quote by GW
"Your claim is so false. Justin Martyr in the 2nd century said MANY TRUE CHRISTIANS in his time were NOT premillenialists. That can be found in his writing Dialogue with Trypho. And he lived from the beginning of the 2ND CENTURY to the MIDDLE of the 2nd century!

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you neglect to mention Justin Martyr HIMSELF was a millenialist, as were Papias, Aviricius Marcellus, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Hippolytus, Cyprian, Nepos, Commodianus, Lactantius.

so you can see premillenialism is not a new thing, it had been around since the 1st century.

Originally posted by GW
Chilioi is a PLURAL. Thousand(s)

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that is what YOU say, the strong's gives as "thousand" and you substituting the word ORIGIN for it's DEFINITION is hilarious!!

i find it even more funny since we are now discussin chilaists ...people who belive in a literal 1000 year rule of Christ!!

Originally posted by The Messenger
so you can see premillenialism is not a new thing, it had been around since the 1st century.

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I never said that premillennialism is a new thing. It is a very old heresy (denounced at 431AD by the majority view -- Amillennialism).

Dispensationalism is a new thing (1800s). All those men you listed who were premils believed the Church was Israel (they were NON-dispensationalists). They wrote VOLUMES about who true Israel is -- the Church. The idea that the Church is not Israel is from the 1800s and is a blasphemy.

The point is, Justin Martyr called his AMILL brothers pious men of the true faith. He was doing far better than many people here right now who are attacking us amillennialists with much venom.

I stick by my point on the greek that chilioi is a plural with no singluar form. This means that the word does not always have to mean the number 1000.

Check this out:

Rev 17:18, Rev 18:10, Rev 18:16, Rev 18:19, Rev 18:21

You'll notice all those verses speaking of Babylon, the great city.

But I think Rev 11:8 tells us clearly what "Babylon" is:

Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.

Clearly Jerusalem. Is this true?

Rev 18:10 speaks of coming judgment which Jesus prophesied about (Matthew 23:38).

Rev 18:16 says the city is 'dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!" which reflects an ephod worn by a high priest (Ex 28:5-6, 36), Samuel (1 Samuel 2:18), and also David (1 Samuel 21:9)

She fills herself with the blood of the prophets and saints: Rev 16:6, 17:6, 18:20, 24. Cf. Mt 23:37 and Acts 7:52.

Just thought I'd share that =)

-Jason

Originally posted by parousia70

How do you reconcile your belief that Christ will destroy an earth that God said would exist forever?

Thanks,
YBIC,
P70

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You misunderstood, Parousia. I was saying that I grew up in the Church of Christ and those are the beliefs they hold to. I have since come to believe differently.

As far as the Earth's destruction, this verse is used as their basis:

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Do preterists believe that the Earth will remain the same (or become progressively better) forever (or on an ongoing basis?) - Is there a point, according to your views, where the Earth's progressive improvement reaches a climax? According to the preterist's beliefs, is the Earth moving towards a certain point and will eventually achieve perfection and that Heaven as well as Earth will exist forver in 2 different places? If so, will people continue to die on Earth and go to heaven forever?

YBIC2

Originally posted by The Messenger
the preterist answer is to distort scripture, to call the cross a "mere death" and to lie to people about definitions of words.

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Unbelievable. That very statement is an intentional distortion of my point on Galatians 5:1-5 that the cross did not universally save all human beings. Those in disbelief and those jews who went back to the Law of Moses (which must still have existed for anyone to turn back to it) made Christ "OF NO EFFECT." In addition, I have pointed out that the Cross had huge SPIRITUAL consequences but zero physical impact. Jesus was one of thousands of accused men who died that way. They killed off Jesus and the thieves and said, "Next!" And more people were next in line. No fanfare. Of course, the fanfare came at AD 70 when a whole nation and millions of people were killed off at God's coming (Matt 21:40-45). I have now asked you two times to stop distorting my words on this.

You actually have shown the nerve to tamper with the text itself, trying to change BODY to the plural BODIES in Romans 8:23 to suit your theology. Brother, have your interpretation any way you want it but for the sake of the integrity of God's Holy Word please stop changing the singluar BODY to BODIES! Paul used the PLURAL "bodies" in Romans 12:1. He used the singluar "BODY" in Romans 8:23. Deal with it.

Next, I stand by my understanding of the greek word CHILIOI to be a plural with no singluar. It can mean thousands or thousand. It does not have to have a fixed and precise meaning of 1000.

Originally posted by parousia70
Preterists do not believe all Bible prophesy has been fulfilled.

We do believe however that all Bible eschatology has been fulfilled.

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Hello Parousia!
What are some examples of prophecies that preterists believe are yet to be fulfilled?

-----

- By the way, Spongebob is very cool.

"If I had a dollar for every brain you didn't have, I 'd have one dollar" - Squidward quote

(That was not directed at you!)

Originally posted by Willis Deal


The third option: Prophecy can have a broader application than one event at one time.

We see Babylon in Revelation, yet we know Babylon was destroyed long before even the earliest dating of the book. So we now have three options. 1. God is an idiot who can't tell the difference between one country and the entire earth. 2. God is the biggest liar in the universe. 3. God, in his wisdom, authored a prophecy which had an immediate fulfillment in OT Babylon yet extended far into the future and has relevance to the NT Babylon.

Which option are you more comfortable with?

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How silly of me to momentarily forget your perpensity to apply the "double fulfillment" theory to prophesies that a single fulfillment dosen't fit your paradigm.

I'm not clear about one thing here. Are you implying God is incapable of using the term "earth" as a metaphore for a city, nation or government without being an idiot or a Liar?

Also, In your view, will the Empire of the Medes be reformed to destroy a supposed "future' Babylon too, or does that part not fit into your double fulfillment scenario?
YBIC,
P70

Originally posted by The Messenger
GW worked real hard to compare Romans 8:10-11,23 to scripture that pertained to the spiritual redemption, but not the physical, Romans 8 teaches on both the tense thing killed GW's argument, Paul constantly spoke of spiritual redemption as a present (pre70ad) thing he had, and the redemption of the body as a future event. they are 2 different things.

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WHAT???

Saying there is a spiritual redemption and then a second redemption separated by thousands of years is not what the scripture teaches. Your attempt to assign Gal 4:1-5:5 as fulfilled and Romans 8:14-25 as unfulfilled until some second coming is an error, and a big one. Plain and simple. THEY ARE PARALLEL PASSAGES and speak of the one and the same exact "bondage" (cf. Gal 4:3,7,10 to Rom 8:15,21) and the same exact "adoption and redemption" (cf. Gal 4:5 to Rom 8:23 and Gal) unto the same exact standing as "sons/children of God" (cf. Gal 4:5-7 to Rom 8:14,16-17,9,21) by crying out the exact same words "ABBA, FATHER!" by the same "groaning Spirit" (cf. Gal 4:6 to Rom 8:15, 22, 26). How in the world did you come up with two different fulfillments of this separated by thousands of years??? They are the same exact thing.

The Holy Spirit being granted to believers (Messenger's so-called 1st "spiritual" redemption) is not called the redemption itself by the bible writers. RATHER, Paul explicitly calls that a DOWNPAYMENT (or "earnest") towards the redemption! It is NOT redemption at all, but only an earnest or pledge:

Eph 1:13-14
AFTER that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance UNTIL THE REDEMPTION of "the purchased possession" [i.e., "The Church" - Acts 20:28]

There it is folks. Believing and having the Holy Spirit in the 1st century did not give one redemption, but rather "an earnest of the inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession," -- that purchased possession is the Church (Acts 20:28).

The Messenger, you're done. Romans 8:23-25 is NOT the resurrection of bodies but is the redemption of "OUR BODY" (singular), which equates here to the redemption of the Church. Paul here shows that having the Holy Spirit and believing was "AN EARNEST" UNTIL the redemption. When did the redemption occur? The scripture tells us plainly:

Luke 21:28
But WHEN these things begin to happen, look up, and lift up your heads, because your redemption is near."

Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption

Now, for you that hasn't happened yet, which is why you cannot go to heaven at death, as you also admit. You will wait perhaps for thousands of years after your death to be individualy conscious and sentient. Sweet victory in Jesus??? For the preterist, however, this is PAST and therefore I can and will go to heaven's bliss and inheritance instantly when my earthly body is deceased and I receive my new body from heaven according to 2 Cor 5:1-2. And so preterists boldly proclaim what you cannot even hope to utter at this present time. Namely, that:

(#1) I have the redemption and am fully redeemed. I am not groaning for it nor waiting for it while hanging on to a pledge/earnest that someday it will come.

--AND--

#2) Where, O Death, is thy sting? where, O Hades, is thy victory?

What a depressing and weak eschatology that teaches that the redemption has not come yet nearly 20 centuries after Christ came at a specific time in history with a hope to accomplish that very task (Gal 4:4-5). And even more depressing may be the fact that your eschatology teaches that the Advent of Christ did NOTHING to change the state of the afterlife for all who have been among the dead going back to Adam and Eve! In your theology the great O.T. saints still don't even know Jesus Christ has come yet -- they're unconscious! It's unthinkable, yet it is what you teach.

Preterism is an eschatology of victory over death!

I encourage you to repent and desist of your error over Romans 8:14-25. God may have mercy and give you clarity on his treasured teaching about the redemption, a redemption that you do not have yet but that preterists have had since the end of the Age of Moses at AD 70 when that curse and bondage over the saints was removed from the planet forever.