O/F OSAS vs. fall from grace

To Apologist:

Sorry, I can't listen to your link, I'm hearing-impaired. And while I do appreciate the scholarship of ANYONE who has obtained a doctorate (and I'm serious here, not kidding), I also realize that there IS an opposing viewpoint, the one of the Catholic Church. The Church has a rich history of 2000 years to draw upon, the research of many learned people and my faith rests in its teachings.

Free Will does not stop existing once you accept the Salvation offered by Jesus Christ. God does not FORCE you to stay with Him. Each day is a choice anew, to continue to dedicate yourself to Him. The Church teaches that salvation is a process, not an event.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

--------------------
I also realize that there IS an opposing viewpoint, the one of the Catholic Church. The Church has a rich history of 2000 years to draw upon, the research of many learned people and my faith rests in its teachings.
-----------------
God gave us the Bible and the ever present and current Holy Spirit abiding in all believers to guide them into all truth, not some old church writings or some "infallible" body that decides who's right and who's wrong.

----------
"God does not FORCE you to stay with Him."
-----------

But He is bound by his Word. And He will keep his promise:

"I give them ETERNAL life and they will NEVER perish".

Either OSAS is true (and it is) or God is a liar.

To Andrew:

not some old church writings or some "infallible" body that decides who's right and who's wrong.

Click to expand...

Chill, please.

You do not have the authority to pass judgment on someone's beliefs like that!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Louis writes: "This passage is not ment to say you can fall away "

Galatians 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

A agree that this letter was written to Judiazers, that is clearly evident. What Paul was pointing out to them is that by returning to their old ways, they would be "SEVERED FROM CHRIST." To me that is pretty straight forward. You cannot be severed from something you are not connected to, and if you are severed from Christ, I think we can all agree that is a very bad thing. The result of this severing is a FALLING AWAY FROM GRACE.

I agree with you that Paul is saying we have been set free, that is not the issue. The issue is their salvation and Paul's concern for it. What he is trying to make them see is they are disobeying Christ. That is the heart of his message. As a result of this disobedience, they will be severed from Him. Romans 5:10 says that we are reconciled to God by the death of Christ, but we are saved by His life. If you are severed from Christ, you are severed from His life.

It really didn't matter that they were keeping the Jewish customs, the real meat of the matter was their disobedience: " who hindered you from obeying the truth?" Galatians 5:7.

Notice the first part of Paul's exhortation was a plea to not submit. That is what it is all about. A voluntary act of the will against Christ. That is the very definition of a mortal sin!

In Christ,

Neal

Andrew wrote, " 'I give them ETERNAL life and they will NEVER perish.' Either OSAS is true (and it is) or God is a liar."

Romans 13:11
Besides this you know what hour it is, how it is full time now for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed;

God has given us a great gift in Jesus: eternal life, our salvation, which is closer to us every day that we walk in Him. The following quote is from Mark 10:

29 Jesus said, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel,
30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life."

It never ceases to amaze me what God does for us. As verse 30 and 31 say, we are rewarded twice! How wonderful is that! In this life we are given what we NEED, not always what we want (thank God for small miracles) and in the age to come, eternal life with our brothers and sisters in Christ is our gift. Notice the distinction in Christ's words, though. We are NOT given eternal life in this world, but the one to come. It is only after Christ greats us and says, "Well done, good and faithful servant," that that life is eternally ours. Good and Faithful.

Lord God, grant that all of your children may be greeted with those kind and generous words. Through Christ, Our Lord, Amen.

Neal

Neal,

Eternal life is given to us by God the moment we are born again. Eternal life does not begin after we die physically. As long as we have Christ in us, we have eternal life -- we are not waiting to get it someday.

Scripture support:

1 John 5:12 -- He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Have you accepted the Son into your heart? If you have then you have His life as this scripture says clearly. You do not have this life if you have not accepted Him into your heart. So there's no such thing as a Christian being born again and having Jesus in him but not having the "life". That's nonsense.

Also, "life" in "eternal life" means "zoe" or God-kind of life, that is "eternal". When you are born again, you receive this God-kind of life that cannot die. Your body/shell dies but you live on into the next world.

1 John 5:12 -- He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

That life is saving grace, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. On that I think we both agree. That passage is absolutely true. He who has the Son does have life. But what happens when you are severed from Christ and fall away from grace (Galatians 5:4)? Well, the passage you quoted says it all, "he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."



In Christ,

Neal

Gal 5:4 says:
4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

This just means that those who want to save themselves by works:
1. Have fallen from grace, since grace and works are opposites.
2. Christ is of no effect to them since God works thru grace, not human effort.

It does not mean that the Holy Spirit or eternal life in the believer comes and goes as and when the believer sins. Sinning does not cause one to fall from grace but into grace. The verse clearly says that what causes a person to fall from grace is his efforts to save himself -- be justified by the law or works.

To Andrew:

The whole question from the Catholic POV is not "saving through works." It's a study of Free Will. Free Will is present to accept Salvation, and Free Will can also release you from it. God does not abolish Free Will upon Salvation. We are always tempted, perhaps even moreso, by Satan. What glee Satan must express, at the thought of compromising a soul given to God!

We do not become mindless robots upon acceptance of God's gift of Salvation. We still must struggle daily in our travel to Life's end. True, God does grant us guidance and strength. At no point does He ABANDON us! But we still contain the stubborn Free Will that got Adam in trouble to begin with. And the Unlimited Mercy of God is this: when we fall, we are always welcomed home again.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Andrew: "It does not mean that the Holy Spirit or eternal life in the believer comes and goes as and when the believer sins. Sinning does not cause one to fall from grace but into grace."

The Judiazers had disobeyed God voluntarily. They had "submitted" of their own free will to disobey God. No one forced them to forsake the Christ that had once saved them and set them free. This disobedience of God is sin. And as Galatians 5:4 says those who disobey (sin) "are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." I just don't see how this says that sinning voluntarily against God will cause us to fall into grace, and not out of it.

Paul clarifies at the end of his exhortation that he isn't so much concerned about what the sin was in particular, but their submission into disobedience. The fact that they were Judiazers is secondary, what is the most important fact is they were once believers in Christ, partakers in His life, destined for eternal salvation and living in the Grace of God, but sadly had turned from it and severed themselves from the source of all Grace and Salvation, Christ Jesus. That is what Paul wants to rectify. He wants them to return to their obedience That is repentance; and that is what will rejoin them to Christ.

Neal

"What Paul was pointing out to them is that by returning to their old ways, they would be "SEVERED FROM CHRIST." "

YOu seemed to have missed statements made by Paul earlier in his letter. It is essential to remember he doesn't just write something and forget about it. In chapter 3 he clearly says those that fall away prove themselves to be lawbreakers and not of God. They weren't christians. He is saying you are free, don't try to take the law on yourself again because you will only fail. Essentially he is saying, realize you're out of prison and live like it. Live free. That's it. He is not saying you can fall away.

"that is not the issue. "

That is the very issue. Those statements taken out of that context mean what you say, if they are taken in context dont' mean anything close to what you say they do.

"It really didn't matter that they were keeping the Jewish customs, the real meat of the matter was their disobedience: " who hindered you from obeying the truth?" Galatians 5:7. "

Yes, agreed but in not submitting they are not falling away from Christ in the way you advocate. They are just becoming ineffective soldiers, not leaving the army. BIG DIFFERENCE. paul never advocated people being of Christ then falling away. Why? Because he believed that would be salvation in man's hands and not God's You have to remember when God clearly presented himself People didn't just turn away in those days. He shows this again in cp 4 vs 7.. He is basically saying in this letter, as I have stated before, you have christ now, you are not under the law, live like you're free. Its an exortation to live, not a condemnation to live that way or you will die. Paul doesn't work like that. See romans chapter 3.


VOW---"Catholic POV is not "saving through works." It's a study of Free Will. "

How can it not? You sin, and you fall away, then you need Jesus again. Its not works, its reversed works, you have to do good or you will fall away, which is not the case Paul makes in romans....

Louis, you say "they weren't christians."

How then were they severed from Christ? How are you severed from something you weren't attached to? If you are attached to Christ, you have His life, if you are severed, you don't. Right?

If you are with Christ and have His life, but then are severed from Christ and no longer have it, then you were once saved, but no longer.

Neal

"If you are with Christ and have His life, but then are severed from Christ and no longer have it, then you were once saved, but no longer. "

Same way i can say you should seperate the immoral brother. Either 1. They were with Christ and need corrective teaching. or 2. They were never will christ and just went throught he motions and it wasn't a circumsion of the heart, as we see in this case in Galatians. I also think you need to realize "in Christ" was something more to Paul then just being saved.

But they WERE saved. They had been set free from slavery! They were freed from the Law by Christ, but fell again, rather left or returned...like a dog to its vomit.

My main concern is evreyone here is careful and guards their salvation like the precious gift it is.

Please, any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. (Corinthians 10:12)

May the blessings of Christ be your in all abundance.

Neal

To Louis:

VOW---"Catholic POV is not "saving through works." It's a study of Free Will. "

How can it not? You sin, and you fall away, then you need Jesus again. Its not works, its reversed works, you have to do good or you will fall away, which is not the case Paul makes in romans....

Click to expand...

Then by that definition, Louis ALL FREE WILL is "works." I don't understand the OSAS position that Free Will is extinguished upon Salvation. If you had Free Will to accept the gift of Salvation to begin with, then why don't you still possess Free Will to jeopardize it?

And throwing verses back and forth isn't going to solve this discussion, because we're clearly in two different camps and neither one will budge.

My problem with the OSAS folks is that when they are presented with an example of someone who is "saved" and then does something stupid in a clear display of sin, grevious sin, the OSAS reasoning says, "Well, OBVIOUSLY, he wasn't really *Saved* to begin with."

Who alone but God can POSSIBLY know that?

What kind of message are you giving to the screw up? Suppose he feels, deep in his heart, he did indeed have the grace of God flood him with gratitude and redemption and all that warm, fuzzy stuff when he answered the altar call? Suppose he DID feel Jesus, and cried with joy?

And the next day, the old habits, the bad friends, the impossible life situation, caused him to sin again?

Aren't you telling him, "Hey, Pal, what you felt wasn't genuine!"

Wouldn't he have the presence of mind to say, "If what I felt wasn't REAL, then why bother?"

What a loss of HOPE here! Such alienation by the very faith you want him to embrace!

Suppose Jesus had rejected Peter after Peter disavowed Him!

Suppose Jesus had told Thomas, "Hey, Buddy, I hear you didn't believe what you were told about My Resurrection. Go ahead and look at the nail holes, and then get out of My sight!"

I bet Thomas fell to the floor weeping when he saw Jesus, and then after Jesus gently admonished him, Jesus reached down, pulled Thomas to his feet, and put His arms around him as He said, "I love you, Thomas."


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"We are all Children of God, whether we acknowledge it or not. "

Noo...it means he was always a christian, in the context you put it in. He never stopped being a christian regardless of his actions, again showing OSAS.

"Isn't that essentially what God says? In order to live in God's house, we have to abide by His rules. "

Nope, he says love me and the rules will come naturally. I don't see a meantion of following "rules" in the greatest commandment.

Click to expand...

The Jews invented 'the sin of presumption'. Paul speaks about it in Rom 9:6 -
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;

How can this be? These are circumcised Jews he's talking to here. Are they not 'heirs of the promise'? Apparently not.

Also, look at Matthew 3:9 -
9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

And a similar passage in Luke 3:8 -
8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Hbr 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

To all:

There has never been an argument that there is ONE sacrifice, and that salvation is available to all through that perfect sacrifice.

But again, the Catholic Church teaches salvation is a PROCESS.

Matthew 10:22

You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.

Click to expand...

operative words: WILL BE saved


Matthew 24:13

But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Click to expand...

operative words, again: WILL BE saved.


1 Corinthians 10:12

Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall.

Click to expand...

Who better than St Paul would know about salvation? Paul poured his heart out on the infant Church, traveling, evangelizing, spreading the Gospel, claiming to be a prisoner for Christ. Yet even Paul didn't hold himself up to OSAS.

1 Corinthians 4: 3-5

It does not concern me in the least that I be judged by you or any human tribunal; I do not even pass judgment on myself; 4 I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord. Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts, and then everyone will receive praise from God.

Click to expand...

I have noticed that the OSAS camp of believers will say about a person who suffers a very obvious fall from grace, "Oh, he must not have been *really saved* to begin with." I think Paul here is saying otherwise.

The idea of salvation as a process is best explained by Paul in these words:

1 Corinthians 9: 26-27

Thus I do not run aimlessly; I do not fight as if I were shadowboxing. 27 No, I drive my body and train it, for fear that, after having preached to others, I myself should be disqualified.

Click to expand...

Why would St Paul, of all people ever fear disqualification?

I'm not trying to convert anyone to another belief. I simply want everyone to think.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

Originally posted by VOW
To all:

There has never been an argument that there is ONE sacrifice, and that salvation is available to all through that perfect sacrifice.

But again, the Catholic Church teaches salvation is a PROCESS.

Matthew 10:22


operative words: WILL BE saved


Matthew 24:13


operative words, again: WILL BE saved.


1 Corinthians 10:12



Who better than St Paul would know about salvation? Paul poured his heart out on the infant Church, traveling, evangelizing, spreading the Gospel, claiming to be a prisoner for Christ. Yet even Paul didn't hold himself up to OSAS.

1 Corinthians 4: 3-5


I have noticed that the OSAS camp of believers will say about a person who suffers a very obvious fall from grace, "Oh, he must not have been *really saved* to begin with." I think Paul here is saying otherwise.

The idea of salvation as a process is best explained by Paul in these words:

1 Corinthians 9: 26-27


Why would St Paul, of all people ever fear disqualification?

I'm not trying to convert anyone to another belief. I simply want everyone to think.



Peace be with you,
~VOW

Click to expand...

If Salvation is a "process" not finished until you die, How do you explain these "verses"??

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

1Jo 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, (have passed, (Past tense))

What many overlook is the fact that salvation is a Choice God also makes, along with us. It's called "GRACE".

God knows all the sins we'll commit during our life, he doesn't save today and tomorrow say , Opps, I didn't know you were going to sin again, I better take back your salvation.

Who among us "doesn't sin", if sin caused us to lose salvation, none could be saved.

To offend the law in one point makes you as guilty as offending in "all points". Sin is sin, there no "big/little" sin.

As long as we are "in the flesh", we'll sin, even Paul confessed to serving God with his mind but the law of sin with his body.

God doesn't save the flesh, but the soul, and his choice give us "eternal life" from that "moment" on, he "sealed" the soul against sin.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

The "Church" makes up the "Body of Christ" and "HE" (Jesus) keepeth himself, (His body).

1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ,

Can a person/Nation "backslide" away from God, certainly, this is called "Spiritual fornication", "whoring after another/other gods.

Jg 2:17 but they went a whoring after other gods,

Suppose you're "chosen" (or saved) and commit "spiritual fornication", what happens??

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you,

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

This is what happen to Israel when Jesus came, they refuse to accept him and tried to establish their own righteousness without him.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Israel committed Spiritual fornication in rejecting the Holy Ghost leadership. un-FAITH-ful.

This is why "Satan" (Antichrist) prevails over the Jews and is given dominion over the whole world, during the trib, their "Flesh" is literally turned over to satan for it's destruction, those saved will literally "drink of Jesus's cup".
(death for salvation)

Re 13:15 and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Re 6:9 I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the "word of God", (Jesus is the "word of God", Joh 1:1)


WHY, because Jews are a "Chosen people" and once "Chosen" (called) you can "NEVER" be "Un chosen".

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they (Jews) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (you can't get "OUT")

Once saved, you come under the "Chastisment of God", and if necessary, he'll allow Satan to kill the flesh, but the soul is still saved, and he's no respector of persons.

To Me4Him:

Huh?

I'm sorry, but I lost the whole conversation once you started throwing in the Jews, the tribulation, and whatnot.


Peace be with you,
~VOW