Futurists vs Preterists

Universal Creeds and Calvinistic Confessions

The Nicene Creed says this about the final judgment by Jesus Christ:


He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.


The Apostles Creed says this:


He ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the God the Father Almighty. From there he will come again to judge the living and the dead.


The Athanasian Creed says this:


He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty, and from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will rise again with their own bodies to answer for their personal deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, but those who have done evil will go into everlasting fire.


It adds this warning: "This is the true Christian Faith. Whoever does not faithfully and firmly believe this cannot be saved."

In these formulations, God's final corporate judgment of both the resurrected living and the resurrected dead is said to take place in the future. It cannot have been an event in A.D. 70. This eschatological affirmation is denied by all heretical preterists.

This is the official eschatology of the Christian church. It has been so from the beginning, when the New Testament's texts were written. This view extended through the first three centuries of the church until the earliest creeds were formulated. The men who formulated the judicial statements that have defined the Christian faith institutionally had no doubt about what the New Testament teaches regarding the last days. The church has been clear for almost two millennia that anyone who denies these views is a heretic. Therefore he who denies this view of the future and who remains voluntarily as a member of the church is a subversive. He remains in the institutional church in order to undermine the Christian faith and steal God's church, as surely as Arius and his followers were subversives who were trying to capture the church for the devil.

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LOVE

Catchup,
Are you suggesting that the creeds are infallible?
...and can you produce even one church document that proclaims preterism a heresey?


Josiah:
Excellent questions that I believe Hoon & GW have answered effectively from the preterist view.

I was wondering if you might clarify one point you made about your beliefs:

They say that all prophecy has been fulfilled and that we're just waiting for Christ to come and destroy the world and take Christians to heaven

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My Bible teaches that ours is a world that was established to exist forever:

Psalms 148:4-6 Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens! 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD, For He commanded and they were created. 6 He also established them forever and ever; He made a decree which shall not pass away.

Psalms 78:69 And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever.

Psalms 119:90 Your faithfulness endures to all generations; You established the earth, and it abides.

Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.

Ephesians 3:21 unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, world without end. Amen.

How do you reconcile your belief that Christ will destroy an earth that God said would exist forever?

Thanks,
YBIC,
P70

Universal Creeds and Calvinistic Confessions

The Nicene Creed says this about the final judgment by Jesus Christ:


He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.


The Apostles Creed says this:


He ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the God the Father Almighty. From there he will come again to judge the living and the dead.


The Athanasian Creed says this:


He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty, and from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will rise again with their own bodies to answer for their personal deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, but those who have done evil will go into everlasting fire.


It adds this warning: "This is the true Christian Faith. Whoever does not faithfully and firmly believe this cannot be saved."

In these formulations, God's final corporate judgment of both the resurrected living and the resurrected dead is said to take place in the future. It cannot have been an event in A.D. 70. This eschatological affirmation is denied by all heretical preterists.

This is the official eschatology of the Christian church. It has been so from the beginning, when the New Testament's texts were written. This view extended through the first three centuries of the church until the earliest creeds were formulated. The men who formulated the judicial statements that have defined the Christian faith institutionally had no doubt about what the New Testament teaches regarding the last days. The church has been clear for almost two millennia that anyone who denies these views is a heretic. Therefore he who denies this view of the future and who remains voluntarily as a member of the church is a subversive. He remains in the institutional church in order to undermine the Christian faith and steal God's church, as surely as Arius and his followers were subversives who were trying to capture the church for the devil.

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LOVE

Catchup,

Are you Roman Catholic?

If not, I should remind you that you are outside of their creeds too on many, many points and therefore are likely to be damned since this statment also applies to ALL non-catholics via creedal orthodoxy:

"This is the true Christian Faith. Whoever does not faithfully and firmly believe this cannot be saved."


BTW, the Catholics who wrote those creeds you cited did NOT believe in a literal 1000 years or a rapture as you do. They DID, however, believe the great tribulation was past (AD 66-70) and went on to officially regard any who hold a LITERAL 1000-years reign as a heretic against Christ and the Church. This happened at the council of Ephesus at 431AD.

You are a heretic according to creedal orthodoxy and are likely to be damned (according to the creeds).

Are you a Catholic?

Universal Creeds and Calvinistic Confessions

The Nicene Creed says this about the final judgment by Jesus Christ:


He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He shall come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.


The Apostles Creed says this:


He ascended into Heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the God the Father Almighty. From there he will come again to judge the living and the dead.


The Athanasian Creed says this:


He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father almighty, and from there he will come to judge the living and the dead. At his coming all people will rise again with their own bodies to answer for their personal deeds. Those who have done good will enter eternal life, but those who have done evil will go into everlasting fire.


It adds this warning: "This is the true Christian Faith. Whoever does not faithfully and firmly believe this cannot be saved."

In these formulations, God's final corporate judgment of both the resurrected living and the resurrected dead is said to take place in the future. It cannot have been an event in A.D. 70. This eschatological affirmation is denied by all heretical preterists.

This is the official eschatology of the Christian church. It has been so from the beginning, when the New Testament's texts were written. This view extended through the first three centuries of the church until the earliest creeds were formulated. The men who formulated the judicial statements that have defined the Christian faith institutionally had no doubt about what the New Testament teaches regarding the last days. The church has been clear for almost two millennia that anyone who denies these views is a heretic. Therefore he who denies this view of the future and who remains voluntarily as a member of the church is a subversive. He remains in the institutional church in order to undermine the Christian faith and steal God's church, as surely as Arius and his followers were subversives who were trying to capture the church for the devil.

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LOVE

Catchup,

Are you Roman Catholic?

If not, I should remind you that you are outside of their creeds too on many, many points and therefore are likely to be damned since this statment also applies to ALL non-catholics who do not keep creedal ("Catholic") orthodoxy:

"This is the true Christian Faith. Whoever does not faithfully and firmly believe this cannot be saved."


BTW, the Catholics who wrote those creeds you cited did NOT believe in a literal 1000 years or a rapture as you do. They DID, however, believe the great tribulation was past (AD 66-70) and went on to officially regard any who hold a LITERAL 1000-years reign as a heretic against Christ and the Church. This happened at the council of Ephesus at 431AD.

You are a heretic according to creedal orthodoxy and are likely to be damned (according to the creeds).

Are you a Catholic? You might want to become one fast if you are as concerned about damnation via the creeds as you seem.

Originally posted by TheBear
The foundation of preterism is their use of the allegorical method of Bible interpretation. This basically means that they will spiritualize any piece of Scripture that does not fit within their belief system of preterism.
John

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Ummmm........wouldn't that also apply to the futurist spiritualization of the terms near, at hand, soon, shortly, quiclky, a very little while, without dealy, some standing here shall not taste death, this generation shall not pass, YOU shall see the son of man comming, etc, etc....?

Isn't the futurist guilty of spiritualizing away these clear time statements since a literal interpratation would not, as you said, "fit within their belief system."?

YBIC,
P70

Quick question for Preterists.....

What, if any prophecies, remain to be fullfilled? Please give scriptural references.

Thanks,
John

Catchup,

Are you Roman Catholic?

If not, I should remind you that you are outside of their creeds too on many, many points and therefore are likely to be damned since this statment also applies to ALL non-catholics who do not keep creedal ("Catholic") orthodoxy:

"This is the true Christian Faith. Whoever does not faithfully and firmly believe this cannot be saved."


BTW, the Catholics who wrote those creeds you cited did NOT believe in a literal 1000 years or a rapture as you do. They DID, however, believe the great tribulation was past (AD 66-70) and went on to officially regard any who hold a LITERAL 1000-years reign as a heretic against Christ and the Church. This happened at the council of Ephesus at 431AD.

You are a heretic according to creedal orthodoxy and are likely to be damned (according to the creeds).

Are you a Catholic? You might want to become one fast if you are as concerned about damnation via the creeds as you seem.

The foundation of preterism is their use of the allegorical method of Bible interpretation. This basically means that they will spiritualize any piece of Scripture that does not fit within their belief system of preterism. There are many ways to dismiss Scripture. You could take a pair of scissors and simply cut out the verses you don't like or that don't fit within your belief system. Or, you can use the allegorical method to interpret the Bible. Both methods essentially do the same thing. The end result is the Word of God is nullified as literal Scripture is spiritualized and then dismissed.

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As Parousia and GW have stated, both Futurists and Preterists use allegorical, symbolic, "spiritualized" methods of interpreting certain scripture. You simply cannot place all of it solely at the feet of preterism. Every eschatological system employs literal and figurative methods. The foundation of preterism is not the "allegorical method", no more than futurism, Bear. We do not try to nullify God's Word nor do we dismiss it, same as futurist Christians. Both systems have problems and pitfalls. When Futurist Christians accuse Preterist Christians of "cutting" scriptures or verses to fit their system, the scissors tend to point right back to the futurists in kind.

By the way, I am in between Partial and Full Preterism at this point - an "On-the-Fence" Preterist, so to speak, and my eschatological bent has absolutely nothing to do with any "lack of faith in our Lord's promised return", as Thunder wrongly surmised in his original post. No Christian ever espouses the preterist viewpoint due to a "lack of faith", I can assure you of that. Quite the opposite, in fact.

And I do find the purpose of this particular thread disturbing. But that's just me.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

COMMENTARY ON MATTHEW 24

Matt 24:1-3 -- Jesus informs his apostles that the Temple, God's dwelling place among mankind for 1500 years, is going to be destroyed.  The Age of the Law of Moses will soon end.  In 70 AD the Roman armies literally took apart the once-holy Temple stone by stone to get at the gold that had melted down between the cracks from the heat of the fires, and to remove the Jewish headquarters. Temple vessels taken to Rome by Titus (Josephus, Wars, 7:5:5-7). The Jews had at first set fire to the Holy Temple (Josephus, Wars, 6:2:9; 6:3:5; 6:4:5; 6:6:2).

24:4 -- Apostles ask, WHEN WILL THESE THINGS BE? What sign signifies thy coming at the end of the Mosaic age? (for this must be discerned by signs.)

24:4-5 -- False messianic movements. Dositheus the Samaritan, Simon Magus deified in Rome, Theudas (Acts 5:36-37), Manahem and, under the government of Felix, "deceivers rose up daily in Judea, and persuaded the people to follow them into the wilderness, assuring them that they should there behold conspicuous signs and wonders performed by the ALMIGHTY" (Josephus).   Felix, from time to time, apprehended many and put them to death.  About this period (A.D. 55) arose another Felix, the celebrated Egyptian impostor, who collected thirty-thousand followers, and persuaded them to accompany him to the Mount of Olives, telling, them that from thence they  should see the walls of Jerusalem fall down at his command as a prelude to the capture of the Roman  garrison, and to their obtaining the sovereignty of the city. Partial list: Judas, son of Hezekiah (4 BCE); Simon of Peraea (4 BCE); Athronges, the shepherd (4 BCE); Judas, the Galilean (6 CE); The Samaritan prophet (36 CE); King Herod Agrippa (44 CE); Theudas (? CE); The Egyptian prophet (52-58 CE); Menahem, the son of Judas the Galilean (66 CE); John of Gischala (67-70 CE); Vespasian (67 CE); Simon bar Giora (69-70 CE)

Matt 24:6-7  -- Claudius' Roman war with Britain/East Anglia, at least three Jewish insurrections against Rome prior to the 60s AD -- one was violently put down by Cuspius Fadus.   The Jewish/Alexandrian revolt upon Caligula's death, Claudius' martial law declared in Palestine after the jewish insurrection at the death of Agrippa I.  The Germanic tribes in present-day Belgium and Germany made perpetual trouble for the legions throughout the  reign.  A smouldering Balkan war was in continuous progress.  All this, of course only escalated, and Rome in 68-70 began its own Civil Wars that nearly toppled the empire.   As Tacitus wrote, " Four princes [Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Domitian] killed by the sword; three civil wars, several foreign wars; and mostly raging at the same time. Favorable events in the East [the subjection of the Jews], unfortunate ones in the West. Illyria disturbed, Gaul uneasy; Britain conquered and soon relinquished; the nations of Sarmatia and Suevia rising against us; the Parthians excited by the deception of a pseudo-Nero." Acts 11:28 records the worldwide famine. Josephus reports the famine in Jerusalem in the 60s AD which killed hundreds of thousands during the Jewish War (AD 66-70). Accounts of infanticide and cannibalism as foretold in Deuteronomy 28:53,57 -- women cooked and ate their babies (Josephus; Wars 6:3:3-4; Wars 5:1:4). Read more on wars of this time and false prophets -- (Josephus: Antiq. 20:5:1-4; 20:8:5-10; Wars 2:10:1; 2:13:4-7; 6:5:2)

24:9-10 -- persecution of the early church by the Jews and later by Nero as he blames the Christian sect for the
burning of Rome.  This went on the entire AD 30-66 by the Jews, and Nero's persecution was 3.5 years from 64-68AD. Matthew 24:9-13 is exactly parallel to Matthew 10:16-23 which all scholars assign to a 1st century fulfillment. Also the Jewish Civil War occurred in 66-69AD (Josephus; Wars, 2:17:1-10; 2:18:1-11; 4:6:2-3; 5:1:2-5; 5:6:1; 5:13:6; 6:2:1)

24:11 -- more false prophets.  these are mentioned by Josephus as being related to the messianic movment of the seditious Zealots that promised the redemption at the Temple for the rebels, yet the Romans brought total destruction.  Believers trapped in the city of Jerusalem endure to the end and are spared.

24:14 -- Gospel to the "oikoumene" -- Roman Empire. Fulfilled rapidly in the apostles' generation  -- Col 1:23, Col 1:5-6, Romans 10:14-18, Romans 16:26, 1 Tim 3:16.  Early Church Fathers all viewed this passage as fulfilled (See Clement of Rome, Chrysostom, Eusebius) -- gospel went even to Spain and Gaul.  The immediate rapid spread of the Christian faith throughout the entire empire was a sign.  The "whole world" spoken of in the Bible pertained to the extent of the Roman Empire,  and the Bible is consistent on this (compare the "whole world" of Matt  24:14 with the "whole world" of Luke 2:1, Acts 11:28, Acts 2:5, Romans 1:8  and and 2 Chronicles 36:23).   The scriptures even used a special greek word in Matt 24:14, OIKOUMENE (strong's #3625), which means the Roman Empire --  the "whole world" (OIKOUMENE) in  the scriptures was contextually centered in the area of the Ancient  Roman Empire (Luke 2:1).  The "whole world"  in the scriptures is mapped out by a careful reading of these passages.

24:15-20 -- This famous historic  account is recorded in   Eusebius,  Ecclesiastical History , iii.v. --  the Judean  remnant  saw armies of Cestius Gallus in 66AD (and Vespasian's later)  surrounding Jerusalem (compare to Luke 21:20-24).  At the same time, The Temple was captured by the Jewish Zealots (2 Thess 2:4-7) that turned the temple into a camp, defiled it with blood,  and made evil of their own high priest. During this time the daily sacrifices to Rome were ended, which was a Declaration of War against the Empire.  These events signaled the faithful remnant to flee according to our Lord's commands to  them (Luke 21:20-22). Just after they escaped the city, the Zealots seized the Temple and the city, guarded the gates, and  prevented all escape.   Eusebius records,  "But the members of the Church in Jerusalem, having been commanded before the war in accordance with a certain oracle given by revelation to the men of repute there, to depart from Jerusalem, and to inhabit a certain city of Peraea called Pella, all the believers in Christ in Jerusalem went thither, and when now the saints had abandoned both the royal metropolis itself and the whole land of Judaea, the vengeance of God finally overtook the lawless persecutors of Christ and His apostles." At the end the Romans sacrificed to their standards at the Temple (Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5).

Matt. 24: 21-24 -- The Great Tribulation (also Luke 21:20-24). Read Josephus, Wars of the Jews -- entire.  The Roman Jewish war is the documented history of the great tribulation.  Josephus declares the war with the Romans was "the greatest of all ever heard of" (as Christ said in Matthew 24:21).  "Whereas the war which the Jews made with the Romans hath been the  greatest of all those, not only that have been in our times, but, in a manner, of  those that were ever heard of" -- Josephus -- Preface to Wars of the Jews, Section 1 (see also: Wars, 5:10:5). Jesus calls this time the "Days of Vengeance" (Luke 21:20-22; Isaiah 61:2; Matt 23:31-38; Luke 19:40-44; Matt 21:40-22:7), and "wrath and distress to come upon this people" (Luke 21:23 -- see also Josephus, Wars, 2:10:1; 2:22;1; 6:3:3-4; 6:9:2-4; 7:1:1). Lakes of blood and fires (Josephus, Wars, 2:18: 4:5:1; 5:1:2-5; :6:4:6; 6:5:1,2; 6:8:5). Jerusalem divided into three (Rev 16:19 -- see also Wars, 5:1:1,4). Genealogical records destroyed (Josephus, Wars, 6:6:3; 6:9:1). God took the Kingdom away from them (Matt 21:40-45; see also Josephus, Wars, 6:8:4:; 6:9:1,4). Jerusalem called "That Great City" and "Sodom" (Rev 11:8; Rev 18:21-24; -- see also Josephus, Wars, 5:10:5; 5:13:6; 7:8:7). Jews sold into slavery (Luke 21:24 -- see also Josephus, Wars, preface section 11; Wars 6:8:2; 6:9:2-4). City of Jerusalem is leveled (Matt 24:2 and Luke 19:40-44 -- see also Josephus, Wars, 7:1:1; 7:8:7). Jesus warns his generation: "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of gehenna? Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate (Matt 23:33-38).

Matt 24:25 -- Jesus here tells the apostles that these dire events will be experienced by them (also Matt 24:33-34; Matt 10:16-23; Matt 23:34-35).  They will be the generation to see these things that Jesus is describing (and not some distant future generation).  Compare Matt 24:25 with similar statments in John 14:28, John 13:19 and John 16:4 that all signal events in the apostles' own near future.   Christ always told his apostles things they would need to know beforehand, that it would be to their benefit when the things came to pass before their eyes.

Matt 24:26-28 -- don't fall for the false  messianic claims.  The true desolation is like lightning over the whole land and, where the carcasses are strewn, there too will be the Roman Eagles (i.e, the infamous Eagle Ensigns of the Roman armies that were planted all over Jerusalem during the Roman Jewish war).  The Eagle Ensigns served as a symbol of the Jews' defeat at the hand of their enemies.  Most commentators believe this war and passage also was the fulfillment of Moses'  predictions in Deuteronomy 28:49 and following verses.  All this literally came to pass in 66-70AD. See also: (Josephus, Wars, 4:5:1; 5:1:2,3,5)

Matt 24:29-31 -- Christ speaks of the end signs.  This passage is using the apocalyptic language of the great prophets Isaiah, Ezekiel,  Hosea, David etc in exactly the same way they used it for God's judgments against nations and individuals in their own times.   Compare with God's coming to O.T. Babylon  in 539BC (Isa 13:10-13, 13:1, and 13:17), OR God's coming to Edom in 703BC  (Isa 34:3-5), OR God's coming to Egypt in 572BC (Ez 32:7-11) OR God's coming  to Nineveh in 612BC (Nahum 1).  Jesus Christ is now also seen as coming in that same glory of the Father (cf. Matt 16:27; John 17:5).  Jesus came to 1st century Israel and demolished it in the same glory of the Father's cloud-comings in the O.T. Age (Isaiah 19:1-2).  This passage speaks of Christ's full equality and oneness with Jehovah.   The Parousia of Christ is signified by the fall of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple.  Many cosmic signs were also witnessed in that period.  The angels and glorious light of Christ are witnessed at the temple and around the cities of Jerusalem (Jude 14; Rev 1:7 -- See also Josephus; Wars 6:5:3; 2:22:1-2; 4:4:5; 6:5:2-3 -- also Tacitus and Midrash).  The unfaithful jews were gathered from all over the world at Passover Feast in 66AD and they sealed in by the Roman armies.  They were now in the furnace of the City and were destroyed (see: Matt 13:40-43, Luke 19:43-44, Matt 23:33-38, Luke 23:28-31).   Rabbis call 70AD the "end of biblical judaism."   The Church is also gathered and spared God's desolations and wrath.  The Church is at this time after the death of the apostles built, established, never to be destroyed. The Church becomes the eternal Temple and Priesthood of God (2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:9).  Christianity emerges distinct from Judaism and becomes the universal and one true faith of God.  Christ's followers destined to occupy all nations, teaching them to obey Jesus.  The teachings of Christ and the apostles are fully and historically vindicated in this historic destruction of  Jerusalem.  

Matt 24:32-33 -- parable of all the trees (Luke 21:29-31). When trees shoot forth leaves it signals that summer is now near at hand. "So likewise YOU too [the apostles], when YOU shall see all these things know that it is near, even at the door" (see also James 5:8-9; Rev 3:20). In Luke's account Jesus promises the apostles: "So also you, when you see these things come to pass know that the kingdom of God is near at hand" (Lk 21:31).


MATT 24:34 -- VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT  PASS UNTIL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED

Originally posted by GW
GW ASKS:
If all those good things are in you and other Christians (as you say), then don't you believe that this by necessity will improve your family, your work, your neighborhood, your city, and your country, and your world?

THE MESSENGER REPLIES:
i do believe those things GW


GW ASKS:
Then there is no possible or logical reason that can be given for the belief that conditions amongst humanity must get worse and cannot improve greatly. Logic and scripture necessitate that Christ and the Church are indeed making the world better over time. In fact, things have gotten better and are predestined to do so all the more. When one takes a long-range survey of history we see how much better the world has become because of the salting role of God's people on the earth. Only people who don't know the history of the world or today's wretched condition of the not-yet-Christianized societies could be shocked by this historic truth.

The revolution of Christianity is unstoppable in bringing about God's righteousness and rule over the whole earth.

Most people do not know or pay attention to history.

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GW you have lost all contact with reality, more christians have died in the 20th century than any other time in history.

of course it is real easy gor you to sit behind your computer and tell us how "good" things are, goto china, the middle east, and see how christians are suffering and dying every day.

Good stuff, GW. The disciples showed Jesus the buildings of the Herodian temple in verse one, and the Lord says "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto YOU, There shall not be left HERE one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.(v.2)"

Every stone of the Herodian Temple was thrown down in 70AD, just as Jesus prophesied - within their generation. "All these things" did take place.

In Christ,

Acts6:5

Great post GW!

In light of Matthew 24:14 and it's reference to preach the gospel to the 'whole world', I just thought I'd share this:

This is what Cyrus king of Persia says: " 'The Lord , the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth and he has appointed me to build a temple for him at Jerusalem in Judah. Anyone of his people among you-may the Lord his God be with him, and let him go up.' " (2 Chronicles 36:23)

Of course, it would be foolish to believe that Cyrus ruled North and South America. By the way, here's a parallel passage: Ezra 1:2

God bless!

-Jason

To be honest there is so much evidence against the preterist views that its just not worth considering:

The anti-christ has not appeared and deceived us; God will harvest his people; Jesus is meant to come down for 1000 years and rule the Earth (Anyone seen him by the way?); In the New Earth all pain and suffering will vanish, People will not sin and there will never be night again. Anyone think this world is without pain or suffering at the moment?

Now theres obviously far more pieces evidence but by the time I write all out the rapture may have already taken place so I'll end it here.

May the Devil stop deceiving you, before its too late

Bishop John Lightfoot
(c.1602-c.1675)
--English scholar partially responsible for
formulating the Westminster Confession


(On Matthew 24:27 ; The Nature of Christ's Return)
"The destruction of Jerusalem is phrased in Scripture as the destruction of the whole world; and Christ's coming to her in judgment, as his coming to the last judgment.  Therefore, those dreadful things, spoken of in Matt. 24:29,30 and 31, are but borrowed expressions, to set forth the terms of that judgment the more.. v.30 - "then shall they see" - not any visible appearance of Christ, or of the cross, in the clouds (as some have imagined); but, whereas  Jews would not own Christ before for the Son of Man, or for the Messias, then by the vengeance that he should execute upon them, they and all the world should see an evident sign, and it was so.  This, therefore, is called "his coming," and his coming in his kingdom." [A Commentary on the Acts of the Apostles, ed. Rev. John Rogers Pitman (London: J.F. Dove, 1825), p.141]

"That Christ's taking vengeance on that exceeding wicked nation is called Christ's 'coming in glory,' and his 'coming in the clouds,' Dan. vii. It is also called, 'the day of the Lord.' See Psalm i.4; Mal. iii. I,2,&c; Joel ii.31; Matt xvi.28; Rev. i.7, &c." (Lightfoot, vol. 2, p. 319).



(On Matthew 24:28)
"for wheresoever the carcase is, &c. I wonder any can understand these words of pious men flying to Christ, when the discourse here is of quite a different thing: they are thus connected to the foregoing: Christ shall be revealed with a sudden vengeance; for when God shall cast off the city and people, grown ripe for destruction, like a carcase thrown out, the Roman soldiers, like eagles, shall straight fly to it with their eagles (ensigns) to tear and devour it. And to this also agrees the answer of Christ, Luke xvii. 37; when, after the same words that are spoken here in this chapter, it was inquired, 'Where, Lord?' he answered, 'Wheresoever the body is: &c.; silently hinting thus much, that Jerusalem, and that wicked nation which he described through the whole chapter, would be the carcase, to which the greedy and devouring eagles would fly to prey upon it" (John Lightfoot, vol. 2, p. 319).


(On Matthew 24:30)
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man. Then shall the Son of man give a proof of himself, who they would not before acknowledge: a proof, indeed, not in any visible figure, but in vengeance and judgment so visible, that all the tribes of the earth shall be forced to acknowledge him the avenger. The Jews would not know him: now they shall know him, whether they will or no, Isa. xxvi. II. Many times they asked of him a sign: now a sign shall appear, that he is the true Messiah, whom they despised, derided, and crucified, namely, his signal vengeance and fury, such as never any nation felt from the first foundations of the world" (Lightfoot, vol. 2, p. 320)

Originally posted by The Messenger
GW you have lost all contact with reality, more christians have died in the 20th century than any other time in history.

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There is nearly zero persecution of Christianity in the entire Western Hemisphere. Europe also has little to no persecution of Christians. China is on its way to conversion. Other pacific rim countries are being evangelized rapidly.

"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church!"
--Tertullian

Originally posted by Craigybabe
To be honest there is so much evidence against the preterist views that its just not worth considering:

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Jesus made a promise to his apostles:

"So, YOU too, when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. TRULY I SAY TO YOU THIS GENERATION WILL NOT PASS AWAY until all these things take place.
--Matt 24:33-34


"Behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold, your house is being left to you desolate
(Matt 23:33-38)

Zechariah 2:11-12 And many nations shall join themselves to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people; and I will dwell in the midst of you, and you shall know that the LORD of hosts has sent me to you. And the LORD will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and will again choose Jerusalem."


the dead have not yet been raised, the rapture never happened, and Jesus is not in Jerusalem.

and i do not have to decieve people as to the definition of words for doctrines sake.

Originally posted by TheBear
Quick question for Preterists.....

What, if any prophecies, remain to be fullfilled? Please give scriptural references.

Thanks,
John

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There are prophesies that are being fulfilled today, and will, by necessity, never stop being fulfilled.

Ps. 110:4: "Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek."

Since Christ functions as a Priest on behalf of sinners "forever," we may infer that sinners will exist on earth "forever" to enjoy the ministry of forgiveness of sins in Christ, for the moment Sinners cease to exist on earth, the need for a priest on their/our behalf ceases.

Rev. 14:6: "...the Everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth..."

The Gospel, which sole purpose is to be preached to sinners that dwell on the earth, does not have a "use by" or "expiration" date. It is "everlasting." This tells us that sinners will be born on earth everlastingly to enjoy the blessings of the Gospel.

"Rev. 22:2, Tree of life" that yields fruit every month, the "leaves" of which are "for the healing of the nations"

This teaches us that in the new earth, "the nations" are in need of perpetual healing.

""May his name endure forever; May his name increase as long as the sun shines...." (Ps. 72:17).

There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore...." (Isa. 9:7).

"Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, unto him be glory in the Church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Eph. 3:20-21).

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

All of the above prophesies are being fulfilled today, and will continue to be fulfilled forever more.

YBIC,
P70