Futurists vs Preterists

The Messenger · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by GW

The subtle inference is this, and I'll ask it point blank:

If all those good things are in you and other Christians (as you say), then don't you believe that this by necessity will improve your family, your work, your neighborhood, your city, and your country, and your world?

I look forward to your answer.

i do believe those things GW, i was only wonderng at your motives for calling them into question, especially since it is YOU and not me on this board deceiving people about the definition of words...like i said; check your own pulse, mine is fine.

Originally posted by GW
Go'el is not one who redeems one from their sins, but is one who vindicates one's case. Job knew that his case was correct and that his friends were wrong. He knew that he would be vindicated, and in the end God arises upon the dust and does exactly that.

Click to expand...

here is the definition of Ga'al the word used to by job to describe his REDEEMER, and the same word used throughout the OT to describe God and the Messiah

to redeem, act as kinsman-redeemer, avenge, revenge, ransom, do the part of a kinsman
(Qal)
to act as kinsman, do the part of next of kin, act as kinsman-redeemer 1a
by marrying brother's widow to beget a child for him, to redeem from slavery, to redeem land, to exact vengeance
to redeem (by payment)
to redeem (with God as subject) 1a
individuals from death 1a
Israel from Egyptian bondage 1a
Israel from exile
(Niphal)
to redeem oneself
to be redeemed

here are some verses using this same word to describe God AND the Messiah

Isaiah 47:4
Our Redeemer--the LORD of hosts is his name--is the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 54:5
For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called.

Isaiah 59:20
"And he will come to Zion as Redeemer, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD.

Psalm 78:35
They remembered that God was their rock, the Most High God their redeemer.

TheBear · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by Catchup

Bear: The option you have added is not honest. Valid is a lie!

To those of you who skim and do not read long post... I have encoded a message. Read the bold words!

I have tried to delete my original post starting this thread, believing that would erase the entire thread. I was not allowed to do so.I do not want to be involved in starting a thread that contains such a lie against our Lord.

I am finished posting on this thread. To all my friends who did not understand I have not turned away from wisdom to accept the perterist views. These people are attempting to destroy from the inside. Atheist are more honest.

The perterist have came here only to disrupt and destroy. GW...Davo...Parousia have no other interest in our forum.
They have posted on no other threads other than the futurist. They have never posted on the prayer request... workshop... roundtable... or any other discussions. They have brought with them nothing but discord! I had thought the ignore button would prevent us from hearing them in other discussions. I had thought this would be a loss, that I was not willing to accept. But after reviewing their profiles and searching their previous post, I found this not to be true. They have no use for us other than imposing their own views over and over again.

Please join with me to clean up our "End of Times" forum of these pests.

Sorry Davo... Sorry GW.... Sorry Parousia70..

You will never leave and neither will I. Ignore is the only option. So to prevent you from preaching your false teachings on my computer.... You are at this point vanished from my sight. Push the ignore button! LOVE

I am truely sorry you feel that way, Catchup. Before I added the "Valid" option, it really wasn't a poll. Heck, I could put up a poll about pre-trib rapture, and give the same choices that were first given here. That wouldn't be a real poll either. The only people who were able to participate in your original poll, were people that basically agreed with you. Kind of like preaching to the choir, wouldn't you say? And, believe it or not, I do not subscribe to preterist teachings.

So, all I did was to make a one-sided poll, into something that all could participate in voting on, not just the ones who agree with you. I hope you understand this concept.

John

parousia70 · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by Tristan
Hi All,

When I looked up what a perterist was, the main thing I remember it saying about them is that they believe that all prophesy in the bible has been fulfilled (i.e. Jesus' return etc...)

Is this correct?

Hi Tristan,
To answer your question, NO.

Preterists do not believe all Bible prophesy has been fulfilled.

We do believe however that all Bible eschatology has been fulfilled.

Prophesy continues to unfold and be fulfilled every day on into the future, 'world without end, Amen.' Praise God!

YBIC,
P70

Catchup · Apr 19, 2002

Bear: I understand your point. The poll was a joke.

But I do not think the people who are trying to destroy our Faith, in the promises that Jesus made... are anything to laugh at. They take their mission seriously.

I tried the ignore button and it has not worked.
Please help.

LOVE

Parousia70:
I caught the coded message in your last post.

TheBear · Apr 19, 2002

Let me give a little background on Futurism and Preterism. Both were preceeded by Historicism. Both have their roots amidst the reformation, counter-reformation era, late 1500's to 1600's. A lot of the teachings were hammered out at the Council of Trent.

Roman Catholics as well as Protestants agree as to the origin of these interpretations. The Roman Catholic writer G.S. Hitchcock says:

The Futurist School, founded by the Jesuit Ribera in 1591, looks for Antichrist, Babylon, and a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, at the end of the Christian dispensation.
The Praeterist School, founded by the Jesuit Alcasar in 1614, explains the Revelation by the Fall of Jerusalem, or by the fall of Pagan Rome in 410 A.D. (G.S. Hitchcock, The Beasts and the Little Horn, p. 7.)

Similarly, Dean Henry Alford (Protestant), in the "Prolegomena" to his Greek Testament, declares:

The founder of this system [Futurist] in modern timesappears to have been the Jesuit Ribera, about A.D. 1580." (Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, vol. 2, part 2, p. 351 [bottom numbering].)
The Praeterist view found no favour, and was hardly so much as thought of , in the times of primitive Christianity. The View is said to have been first promulgated in anything like completeness by the Jesuit Alcasar in 1614. (Ibid, pp. 348, 349 [bottom numbering].)

We can dismiss claims that Futurist teachings did not occur until the mid 1800's. We can also dismiss claims that Preterist teachings date back to the first century.

John

The Messenger · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by GW
Chilioi is a PLURAL. Thousand(s)

the definition givin is "thousand" you substituted the word ORIGIN for the definition and siad "it MEANS this"

i view the millenium as a literal 1000 year period, so did the EARLIEST church, the chileaists. the church lost faith in His return and basically changed the meaning ofscripture and banished anyone who disagreed with them.

the fact is the idea of a literal 1000 year kingdom under the messiah predates New Covenant Judaism(aka Christianity)

Catchup · Apr 19, 2002

Is there any denomination of the Christian Church that is teaching a Preterism view?

LOVE

parousia70 · Apr 19, 2002

Hello John
I'm glad you have chosen to join the discussion.
God's riches to you.

As for your "dating" of the origination of preterist thinking in the church, there is evidence of it earlier than you cite:

From The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom
(A.D.347-407)
Archbishop of Constantinople:

[1] "O God of spirits and of all flesh, who hast trampled down death and overthrown the devil, and given life to thy world, do thou, the same Lord, give rest to the souls of thy servants, names, who have fallen asleep, in a place of light, in a place of verdure, in a place of repose, whence all sickness, sorrow and sighing are fled away. Pardon every sin committed by them in word or deed or thought, for thou art a good God and Lover of man, for there is no man that liveth and sinneth not, for thou only art without sin and thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy word is truth."

[2] "Remembering this saving commandment and all those things which came to pass for us: the cross, the grave, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the sitting down at the right hand, the second and glorious coming again."

[3] "Attend, O Lord Jesus Christ our God, from thy holy dwelling place and from the glorious throne of thy kingdom, and come to sanctify us, O thou that sittest with the Father above, and that are invisibly present here with us. And vouchsafe, by thy strong right hand to impart to us thine immaculate body and thy precious blood, and through us, to all thy people."

(On The Fulfillment of Prophecy)
"It is proper and just to sing hymns to You, to bless You, to praise You, to thank You, to worship You in every place of Your kingdom; for You are God ineffable, inconceivable, invisible, incomprehensible, ever existing, yet ever the same. You, and your only Son and Your Holy Spirit; You brought us forth from non-existence into being, and raised us up again when we had fallen, and left nothing undone until you had brought us to heaven and bestowed upon us your future kingdom." (Prayer of the Anaphora - Eucharistic Prayer)

For a more complete List of All in the early church who applied a preterist understanding to Bible eschatology,
Click HERE

Again, Thank you for choosing to Join this discussion, I look forward to you sharing further insight.

YBIC,
P70

GW · Apr 19, 2002

TO MESSENGER

The subtle inference is this, and I'll ask it point blank:

If all those good things are in you and other Christians (as you say), then don't you believe that this by necessity will improve your family, your work, your neighborhood, your city, and your country, and your world?

I look forward to your answer.

parousia70 · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by Catchup
Is there any denomination of the Christian Church that is teaching a Preterism view?

LOVE

Actually there are several. The preterist view is not confined to one single denomination, but bridges many together.

Click HERE and HERE For a sample of the growing number of ministries who are currently teaching preterism.

YBIC,
P70

GW · Apr 19, 2002

Hi John The Bear:

The preterist view is rooted in the early Church commentaries that interpreted Matthew 24 as mostly or all fulfilled in the first century.

And, one of the main writers of the Westminster Confession, John Lightfoot, had ALL of Matthew 24 fulfilled.

To visit a library of early preteristic interpretations of Matthew 24, click here:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/ChurchHistory/index.html

GW · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by Catchup
Is there any denomination of the Christian Church that is teaching a Preterism view?

Catholics are partially preterist, believing that the great tribulation was the years 66-70AD (see Augustine, Eusebius, Chrysostom, etc). In some Catholic interpretations we see Matt 24 fulfilled and Rev 1-20 fulfilled.

Also, MANY Reformed Presbyterian Churches have about the same interpretation. Here's an example:

Messiah Reformed Church

There are relatively few reformed Churches that teach ALL Revelation is fulfilled, but here are a few really good ones worth checking out. Click links:

Abundant Life Covenant Church

Miami Valley Church

Berean Bible Church

Hoonbaba · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by Josiah
This is a legitimate question because I honestly don't know where you stand on this. This may have been covered in previous posts but I've not come accross it. Here it is:

What happens, according to the preterists understanding, when you die?

Hi Josiah,

We go to heaven!! Glory to God! =)

Our physical bodies return to dust (Genesis 3:19, Job 34:15, Psalm 104:29, Ecclesiastes 3:20)

And our spirit goes to heaven (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

Are you guys saying that the Earth is presently as good as it gets (which is pretty wonderful from what I understand of your beliefs) but heaven (and being face-to-face with the LORD) is still to come for those who die?

Click to expand...

The earth will slowly get better. Did anyone notice that more than 40 years ago, there was a black preached named Martin Luther King Jr.? Anyone remember what he stood for? =)

The fact is the earth is slowly getting better because of the church. After all, I think Philippians 4:8 has something to do with it:

Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirableif anything is excellent or praiseworthythink about such things. (Phil 4:8)

By the way, is there a particular "denomination" that the preterist belongs to or are those beliefs found in many denominations?

Click to expand...

There are several demoninations that are adopting the preterist view (or at least the partial preterist view). There's isn't any one single preterist denomination.

My background is the Church of Christ (I've since come to believe differently - and I believe it is God that has led me) and they hold pretty closely to the teachings you guys espouse. They say that all prophecy has been fulfilled and that we're just waiting for Christ to come and destroy the world and take Christians to heaven (although many if not all I've known wouldn't know a preterist from a tsireterp). They don't, however, believe that Christ came back (again) years ago (in early AD).

It's amazing how many different views there are out there and every one believes he is right...sheesh.

Click to expand...

There are many Church of Christ churches that teach preterism

God bless!

-Jason

GW · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger
i view the millenium as a literal 1000 year period, so did the EARLIEST church, the chileaists. the church lost faith in His return and basically changed the meaning ofscripture and banished anyone who disagreed with them.

Your claim is so false. Justin Martyr in the 2nd century said MANY TRUE CHRISTIANS in his time were NOT premillenialists. That can be found in his writing Dialogue with Trypho. And he lived from the beginning of the 2ND CENTURY to the MIDDLE of the 2nd century! And the fact that MANY nonpremillenialists existed then and were OF THE TRUE faith (as well as the Roman creed, which was expressedly amil, and would become the apostles creed) showed that the amil view did not originate in the third century but was around in great numbers among those Justin saw as of true faith and within orthodoxy from the beginning! Here's his statment:

JUSTIN MARTYR (2nd Century)
"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion (temporal 1000 years), and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." (Trypho, 80)

Originally posted by The Messenger
the fact is the idea of a literal 1000 year kingdom under the messiah predates New Covenant Judaism(aka Christianity)

Not in the Holy Scriptures of the Old Testament, that's for sure.

GW · Apr 19, 2002

What's interesting to remember is that the fella here named "THE MESSENGER" (who opposes the preterist view) teaches adamantly that NONE OF THE SAINTS but Jesus is in Heaven right now experiencing their bliss and rewards with one another.

He believes that when a human dies he ceases to exist until some future resurrection. They are somehow mystically reserved in Christ, he might say, but they have no individual, conscious, sentient existence in Heaven's bliss at death.

Preterists teach that Christ conquered Hades and removed the Law of Moses (1 Cor 15:55-56) so that the dead saints are now in Heaven's full bliss and eternal rewards.

GW · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger
GW your either clueless to the definition of "GO'EL" or your being deceptive when it comes to definitions

Is that so? Don't let pride and ego be your downfall, brother:

Spiros Zodhiates (Hebrew/Greek Scholar):
"'I know that my redeemer lives' are familiar words to the Christian because of their adaptation to Christ in several hymns. However, the sense here is different from that which is usually understood when applied to Christ. The Christian idea of "Redeemer" is of one who is deliverer from sin. The Hebrew word "go'el" (#1350) should more appropriately be translated "Vindicator," i.e., one who delivers from affliction and wrong which is NOT due to sin. Job, unable to convince his friends of his innocence, was leaving it in God's hands to prove to them that he was NOT guilty of the sin of which they accused him. This is the high point in Job's stated trust in God and dependence upon him." (from Hebrew/Greek Key Study Bible -- editor: Spiros Zodhiates, p. 689)

F.F. Bruce -- International Bible Commentary
"[My Redeemer:] the language is legal: the redeemer is the 'vindicator' who will 'rise last to speak in court' (NEB). Job does not say expressly who he expects his vindicator will be; perhaps he knows, yet does not know, that it will be God. At the moment God is his enemy ... Yet on the other hand his hope is that he will see God 'on my side' (RSV) (26f.). ...The destruction of his skin is what has happened already (there is no reference to 'worms' (AV) in the Hebrew), and his hope appears to be that in his flesh, i.e., while he is still alive, he will see his vindication." (International Bible Commentary -- editor F.F. Bruce, p. 533)

GW · Apr 19, 2002

The Messenger said:
Actually Job was expecting to die right up to the moment the LORD appeared, he did not expect the Lord to come at the end of the conversation he was having when he said what he did he was refering to the resurrection.

Job's expressed hope (against all evidence he could gather with his natural eyes) was for a day within his lifetime when God would vindicate and deliver him. (Job 10:9; 23:10; 17:9; 23:10; 19:25-27). Although he could not know for certain, he believed by faith that even once the burning boils had removed his skin he would see his vindicator with his eyes and be vindicated. This, of course, is exactly what happened, according to Job's great faith and patience.

Job's skin was destroyed by his burning boils from satan that covered his body from head to toe (Job 2:7; Job 30:30) and at the end Job's Vindicator did "rise upon the dust" and Job saw Him as he hoped and promised would happen (Job 38:1 and Job 42:5). His vindicator (Go-el) came and vindicated Job's cause (Job 42:7-10).

GW · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by TheBear
The foundation of preterism is their use of the allegorical method of Bible interpretation.

Both preterists and futurists use the allegorical method of interpretation. Tim LaHaye's method of interpretation is very allegorical and symbolic. I think a case could be argued that preterism is even more literal than Lahaye's view -- and Lahaye calls himself a literalist.

Author Gary DeMar's recent book is a gem for taking the time to document just how much LaHaye's view is based on allegory and presupposition instead of straightforward biblical exposition:

End Times Fiction: A Biblical Consideration of the Left Behind Theology
by Gary DeMar
*click on title to read reviews!
*or click here to listen to interview with author using Real Audio.

The Messenger · Apr 19, 2002

Originally posted by GW
TO MESSENGER

The subtle inference is this, and I'll ask it point blank:

If all those good things are in you and other Christians (as you say), then don't you believe that this by necessity will improve your family, your work, your neighborhood, your city, and your country, and your world?

I look forward to your answer.

i already answered this GW ,but i accedentaly put it in a quote box scroll up and you will see it...

"i do believe those things GW, i was only wonderng at your motives for calling them into question, especially since it is YOU and not me on this board deceiving people about the definition of words...like i said; check your own pulse, mine is fine."

GW · Apr 19, 2002

GW ASKS:
If all those good things are in you and other Christians (as you say), then don't you believe that this by necessity will improve your family, your work, your neighborhood, your city, and your country, and your world?

THE MESSENGER REPLIES:
i do believe those things GW

GW ASKS:
Then there is no possible or logical reason that can be given for the belief that conditions amongst humanity must get worse and cannot improve greatly. Logic and scripture necessitate that Christ and the Church are indeed making the world better over time. In fact, things have gotten better and are predestined to do so all the more. When one takes a long-range survey of history we see how much better the world has become because of the salting role of God's people on the earth. Only people who don't know the history of the world or today's wretched condition of the not-yet-Christianized societies could be shocked by this historic truth.

The revolution of Christianity is unstoppable in bringing about God's righteousness and rule over the whole earth.

Most people do not know or pay attention to history.

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