The millennial is to be a period of time in which Jesus reigns with a rod of iron. By looking at the way the world is, I can't believe that we are in the Millennium.
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Originally posted by soulsisterclaire
Thanks for replying to my questions.
I have another though, how do you(or they)Biblically justify that Chapters 19&20 have already occurred? What verses reflect that?
Originally posted by The Messenger because chiatic style does not consist of one point, but is a series of points arranged in a series of differing patterns, usually with the first point also being the last, the 2nd being next to last..etc. and a chiasm can also have chiasms within it. many scholars believe the bible as a whole is a chiasm with this being the first and last points.
Originally posted by The Messenger
so are you saying new jerusalem is a literal city on earth?. [/B]
Originally posted by The Messenger
Revelation 20
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Originally posted by GW
It does notapply to us today. There is only ONE last days generation in human history. The Olivet Discourse is a teaching about the ONE endtimes generation (Matt 24:33-34).
Originally posted by GW
Now ... you have been saying that JESUS CHRIST came back at AD30 as an invisible SPIRIT. When we look at that account we see a few people in Israel speaking in tongues during the festival, which is what you mark as the return of Jesus Christ as a spirit at AD30 (can Jesus return "as a spirit" in your theology?) Along with the cross, that event was hardly noticable to those people living at that time. Who cared and took notice other than a few hundred people at that time? These events were small-town news that only a few insiders could have even taken any note of. Surely the nation didn't pay much attention to the crucifixion of Jesus and the thieves (who were among countless thousands who died on Roman crosses), and of course the Roman Empire didn't either. Yet you bristle at the notion that Jesus came and wiped out the entire Nation and millions of jews at AD 70 at the greatest Day of the Lord in Israel's history -- A HUGE, UNDENIABLE, EVENT IN HISTORY.
Originally posted by GW
Therefore, if you believe Jesus Christ came back to a small few at AD 30 AS AN INVISIBLE Spirit, then why don't you believe Jesus Christ came back in "THE GLORY OF THE FATHER," Yahweh, at AD 70 during the greatest "Day of the Lord? You and I both agree that Jesus said that he was returning back to that very same glory in John 17:5:
Originally posted by GW
Jesus shows us there that he was glorified back into the glory that he had with Yahweh BEFORE the world ever existed. Why in the world, then, do you deny that Jesus Christ came in the Glory of the Father at AD 70 when you and I agree Yahweh came down many times in the O.T. period? AD 70 MUST be considered a coming of The Day of The Lord, and the greatest Israel ever had.
Originally posted by GW
I believes this shows a contradiction. On the one hand you say that Jesus MUST return as the incarnational form like his earthly ministry -- then out of the other side of your mouth you say he came at AD 30 AS A SPIRIT! What??? And then you try to argue against preterists who believe Jesus came back at AD 70 in the glory of Yahweh, at the greatest Day of the Lord Israel had ever known???
Originally posted by GW
Were the 1st century apostles and prophets not warning about of the Day of the Lord in these passages which were written just mere decades before Israel's greatest Day of the Lord? (see 1 Cor 1:8, 5:5; 1 Thess 5:23; Phil 1:6; Phil 1:10: 2 Thess 2:2). All of those Day of the Lord warnings show that the 1st century people expected to live unto that Day of the Lord! It is IMPOSSIBLE that they could not have been speaking about AD 66-70, the greatest Day of the Lord in Israel's history. They lived decades away from that grand event and clearly believed they would live to see it (Phil 1:6; Phil 1:10: 2 Thess 2:2; 1 Thess 5:23). It is unthinkable that they were not speaking of AD 66-70.
and as far as how the word "you" is used, God in His wisdom wrote the bible to us as well as anyone living in any particular time i know there have been many times when i was reading the Word and the word "you" would appear i knew by the spirit it in fact meant "me" personally. the bible is more than a history book.
quote by davo
Yeah I understand how chiasmus works. From my quote from your previous post I was wandering about your thoughts around how you see the lack of knowledge of "chiasmus" as impinging on how one understands in this instance -"prophetic passages."
Originally posted by Catchup
GW: So I take it you think Israel has been saved and is out of danger. What hole have you been hiding in??
Originally posted by The Messenger
because when things written in chiatic style there is not one point being discussed, but many. so when people say a certain book or chapter of scripture is discussing one issue or subject, they miss out on alot.
Of course we are different than the Church as it was during its 40 years of trying to make a break away from the Law of Moses (which existed until AD 70 -- Gal 4:24-25; Heb 8:13; Gal 4:9).Originally posted by The Messenger
are Christians any different that Paul? we have the promise of eternal life, but we have not yet received it, we have redemption from sin because of the cross, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the hope of resurerction.
Originally posted by Willis Deal
p70
you make me laugh out loud. Really you do.
Originally posted by Willis Deal
Let me ask you a question. Is God stupid that he can't tell the difference between one nation and the entire world, or is he such a liar that when he says 'mountain' we must adjust to 'molehill', and when he says 'earth' we adjust to 'city'? These are the only two options I can think of when you present your views. If there is a third option I would certainly love to hear it.
Originally posted by The Messenger
Romans 8:23
and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.
Matthew 24:9-13 is not about all the saints who have died for their faith for 2000 years now. Matthew 24:9-13 is PRECISELY parallel to Matthew 10:16-23. Neither you nor I would say that WE are spoken of in Matthew 10:16-23! No scholar says that Matthew 10:16-23 pertains to us. Since it is the same as Matt 24:9-13 then neither does THAT passage pertain to us.Originally posted by The Messenger
well GW, the fact that Christians are suffering and dying everyday seems to be lost on you, in fact this never stopped since the 1st century.
That number pertainst to the siege under Titus, which was at AD 70. However, many of the jews died in 66-69 since they were all trapped in the city together and were dying of famines, civil war, plagues, and murders. And remember, these were jews from ALL OVER THE EMPIRE who had come down to Jerusalem to observe the spring Passover feasts which was MANDATORY.Originally posted by The Messenger
your exaggerating again GW..."millions" did not die; you yourself used to quote the figure 1.2-1.6 million and a great part of that number was not Jerusalem but Israel as a whole. the city itself was not totally "destroyed" in ad 70
But wait a minute... you have already agreed with me that AD 70 was The Day of the Lord, and the greatest one in Israel's history.Originally posted by The Messenger
because 30ad AND 70ad were not the second coming, for obvious reasons...
Did I just hear you agree that Jesus Christ came in the Glory of the Father at AD 70?Originally posted by The Messenger
gw said: Why in the world, then, do you deny that Jesus Christ came in the Glory of the Father at AD 70 when you and I agree Yahweh came down many times in the O.T. period?
messenger replied: I DO NOT DENY IT, but it fails as the second coming "Day of the LORD"
Interesting to see you have a BODILY JESUS and now also a SPIRITUAL JESUS. Interesting.Originally posted by The Messenger
as a spirit He is the Holy Spirit, as Christ the physical manifestation of God he is/was/will be a physical being
But it HAD to be the Day of the Lord that they were talking about in Phil 1:6, 1:10, 1 Thess 5:23; 2 Thess 2:2; 1 Cor 1:7-8. These were spoken just within 2 decades of Israel's greatest Day of the Lord in its history. AD66-70 was just on the horizon and they all knew it. They were jews and Israelites. It is IMPOSSIBLE that those passages were NOT talking about AD 66-70 and we can tell from reading those passages that they would live until that time! That's what the texts say. We cannot say that it was falsely spoken. Paul said they would live until that event and THEY DID -- it was within 20 years or so of them.Originally posted by The Messenger
as we both agree on there have been other what you call "day of the Lord events" this is just another it is not the greatest day of the lord" because one is coming that will far overshadow it.
Peter says that a thousand of God's years are as one day to us and that one of God's days is as a thousand of our years. The time is fully reversable because time is nothing to God but is something to men on earth. Psalm 90:4 even says that a thousand years are as a watch in the night, which means 3-6 hours.Originally posted by The Messenger
so what if he takes 2, 3 or even 4 thousand years! Peter is stressing that God looks at time differently than we do, and God does things on His timetable, not ours.
Originally posted by GW
BODY. SINGULAR. Meaning, the BODY made up of the firstfruits saints with the Holy Spirit and the rest of the creation who lived prior to the Holy Spirit's indwelling. This BODY of all the saints was also looking to come out of bondage and stay out of it in Galatians 4:1-5:5 and Roman 8:14-17.
Originally posted by The Messenger
this escape from the bondage of the sin nature we all share until we are glorified, which happens at the resurrection
Originally posted by GW
Matthew 24:9-13 is not about all the saints who have died for their faith for 2000 years now. Matthew 24:9-13 is PRECISELY parallel to Matthew 10:16-23. Neither you nor I would say that WE are spoken of in Matthew 10:16-23! No scholar says that Matthew 10:16-23 pertains to us. Since it is the same as Matt 24:9-13 then neither does THAT passage pertain to us.
There is only ONE endtimes generation -- it was the apostles' generation (Matt 24:33-34).
Christians are still suffering dying, feeling pain and mourning...NOW as we speak...this is not a picture of Rev 21:4
he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away."
Originally posted by GW
That number pertainst to the siege under Titus, which was at AD 70. However, many of the jews died in 66-69 since they were all trapped in the city together and were dying of famines, civil war, plagues, and murders. And remember, these were jews from ALL OVER THE EMPIRE who had come down to Jerusalem to observe the spring Passover feasts which was MANDATORY.
still, is was not "millions"...."millions" of jews died in the mid 20th century, not the 1st.
Originally posted by GW
But wait a minute... you have already agreed with me that AD 70 was The Day of the Lord, and the greatest one in Israel's history.
actually no i did not, you need to read my posts more carefully...
Originally posted by GW
The second coming of Jesus CHrist happened.
that's not what the bones in the tombs, the non-happening of the rapture, and the suffering and death of "millions" of post 70ad christians say!
Originally posted by GW
Did I just hear you agree that Jesus Christ came in the Glory of the Father at AD 70?
"it was one of many day of the lord events" but not the second coming.
Originally posted by GW
Interesting to see you have a BODILY JESUS and now also a SPIRITUAL JESUS. Interesting.
what' even more interesting is he is not here like scripture says he will be after the second coming... he did not seem to stay. interesting. upon reviewing this the accounts of Josephus and tacitus both do not show a "physical" being, but a vision in the sky, and the body of Believers were already the "third temple" since pentecost. Josephus wrote his account to Glorify rome, not God. he was an unbeliever.
Originally posted by GW Now if only I could get you to confess a JESUS IN THE GLORY OF YAHWEH AS SEEN IN THE DAY OF YAHWEH at AD 70. Then you'd REALLY have the Holy Trinity.
We'll keep working on ya.
i understand the trinity now ,which is why i know the physical manifestation of God has not come down to "live among us" as Revelation 21 says he will...also he does not seem to be hanging around the land of Judah, which Christ keeps as his personal portion of the Land of Israel.
Zechariah 2:12
And the LORD will inherit Judah as his portion in the holy land, and will again choose Jerusalem ."
so THAT's where he is!!