Futurists vs Preterists

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rollinTHUNDER

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Originally posted by VOW
To Thunder:

Tolerance, Thunder, Tolerance.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Hello VOW,
Tolerant,rollinTHUNDER?? No way. Was Jesus tolerant?? Wasn't He the one who called the twisted, "Hypocrits, snakes, vipers"?? Blind, naked and poor?? How much nonsense do you tolerate VOW?? Do you allow your kids minds to be corrupted by filth on tv, or do you not tolerate it??
 
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VOW

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To Thunder:

When it comes to unruly children, disobedient dogs, misguided coworkers, and the jerks who cut me off in traffic, I'm not very tolerant at all.

Judging the faith of other Christians, I'm pretty reasonable.

It is not your place to judge others, Thunder, m'dear. That's GOD's job. And saying stuff like "preterests have no hope," or other grumpy things doesn't really belong here.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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rollinTHUNDER

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The fact still remains, they come to attack, argue and divide. Their fruit is very easy to recognize. I am not judging them, just exposing their ways to the newcomers. I don't know if they are saved or not, it's not about that. Let the newcomers come and taste some of this fruit. Some won't want to pick any fruit from this tree anymore, and some will. This was only meant to be a heads-up.
 
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Catchup

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Just because you preterists don't like to exercise faith and hope, doesn't mean that we can't have faith and hope. What are you gaining from this?? Don't answer that, this thread is for newcomers only.


I never did know when to keep quiet so here goes..:scratch:

I agree with you Thunder. I have gained nothing from the preterist..but neither have I lost. My beliefs are firm that Jesus will return.

Now if you want to ask if I am annoyed...Definitely!!


I have no idea why they must ruin all our threads bombarding them with their beliefs! They are using verses out of context and downplaying or completely ignoring verses that do not support their opinions. What do they have to gain, but to impose their will upon others? I know I am guilty of being pushy, when it comes to an atheist, and maybe that isn't right either. But at least,I am fighting for a soul! All they want is that we all think as they do.They are like children demanding that it be there way! Why can't they just stay out of End Time threads? Do they think that we can cause the world to end, merely by believing it to be true?
Please, just leave us alone!!
You can start your own threads and tell everyone your side in a non confrontational manner.

Preterist need to understand how close to our hearts we hold the return of Christ.

So what is it???
(1)Do we keep going around and around ??
(2)Or do we agree to disagree??

I hope you choose agree to disagree. Now how can we accomplish this goal and remain in the same forum?

(1) We can stay out of each others threads...Thus allowing both sides to explore and post their beliefs.

(2)We can push the ignore button. But then, we will not be able to have a conversation together about anything. Much good Christian dialogue on other subjects will be lost also.

:sigh: LOVE
 
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GW

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Originally posted by The Messenger
did you know Matthew 24:9, 33-34 still applies today?
It does notapply to us today. There is only ONE last days generation in human history. The Olivet Discourse is a teaching about the ONE endtimes generation (Matt 24:33-34).

Now ... you have been saying that JESUS CHRIST came back at AD30 as an invisible SPIRIT. When we look at that account we see a few people in Israel speaking in tongues during the festival, which is what you mark as the return of Jesus Christ as a spirit at AD30 (can Jesus return "as a spirit" in your theology?) Along with the cross, that event was hardly noticable to those people living at that time. Who cared and took notice other than a few hundred people at that time? These events were small-town news that only a few insiders could have even taken any note of. Surely the nation didn't pay much attention to the crucifixion of Jesus and the thieves (who were among countless thousands who died on Roman crosses), and of course the Roman Empire didn't either. Yet you bristle at the notion that Jesus came and wiped out the entire Nation and millions of jews at AD 70 at the greatest Day of the Lord in Israel's history -- A HUGE, UNDENIABLE, EVENT IN HISTORY.

Therefore, if you believe Jesus Christ came back to a small few at AD 30 AS AN INVISIBLE Spirit, then why don't you believe Jesus Christ came back in "THE GLORY OF THE FATHER," Yahweh, at AD 70 during the greatest "Day of the Lord? You and I both agree that Jesus said that he was returning back to that very same glory in John 17:5:

John 17:5
Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.


Jesus shows us there that he was glorified back into the glory that he had with Yahweh BEFORE the world ever existed. Why in the world, then, do you deny that Jesus Christ came in the Glory of the Father at AD 70 when you and I agree Yahweh came down many times in the O.T. period? AD 70 MUST be considered a coming of The Day of The Lord, and the greatest Israel ever had.

So here you are on record as saying that Jesus could come back at AD 30 IN THE FORM OF A SPIRIT but THEN INSIST that he did not come back in the Glory of the Father at AD 70, the very glory that Jesus had BEFORE THE WORLD EVER EXISTED (John 17:5).

I believes this shows a contradiction. On the one hand you say that Jesus MUST return as the incarnational form like his earthly ministry -- then out of the other side of your mouth you say he came at AD 30 AS A SPIRIT! What??? And then you try to argue against preterists who believe Jesus came back at AD 70 in the glory of Yahweh, at the greatest Day of the Lord Israel had ever known???

Were the 1st century apostles and prophets not warning about of the Day of the Lord in these passages which were written just mere decades before Israel's greatest Day of the Lord? (see 1 Cor 1:8, 5:5; 1 Thess 5:23; Phil 1:6; Phil 1:10: 2 Thess 2:2). All of those Day of the Lord warnings show that the 1st century people expected to live unto that Day of the Lord! It is IMPOSSIBLE that they could not have been speaking about AD 66-70, the greatest Day of the Lord in Israel's history. They lived decades away from that grand event and clearly believed they would live to see it (Phil 1:6; Phil 1:10: 2 Thess 2:2; 1 Thess 5:23). It is unthinkable that they were not speaking of AD 66-70.
 
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davo

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Originally posted by The Messenger
Shalom davo
i really do not think new jerusalem itself is the New covenant, as it was ratified at the cross, otherwise Paul would not be so vehement that "we are "discharged" "dead to" and "not under" law...Christ said plainly his "blood" IS the new covenant...all pre 70ad. the spiritual kingdom came in working and power during the first coming of Christ.

Hi Messenger,

Those scriptures I referenced do definitely indicate the New Jerusalem is the New Covenant. By "ratified" I mean "confirmed" -which the "new covenant in His Blood" indeed did. However there was a working out of this over that "this" generational period -hence Paul's "we were, we are, we shall be saved etc." Salvation in its "fulness" was their "hope" -they then (AD30-70) had the "downpayment" of it through the ever present Spirit as poured out at Pentecost, but it was there HOPE i.e., full or completed salvation. And as Paul says: one does not hope for what one has. This is where it can "appear" a little clouded at times because Paul does talk in "now and not yet" terms -does that make sense?

davo
 
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Catchup

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GW: So I take it you think Israel has been saved and is out of danger. What hole have you been hiding in??

Israel's troubles are far from over. Nuclear war is a possibility. Do you think God will not send his Son again??
Do you think God will stand quietly by while Israel and posibly the world is destroyed?

Matthew 24:21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

:sigh: LOVE
 
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parousia70

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Originally posted by The Messenger
hiya parousia70 :D



Genesis 8:21
And when the LORD smelled the pleasing odor, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done.

he doesnt...but he does destroy all evil.


Messenger,
Are you now back-peddling away from this previous statement you made?:
Originally posted by The Messenger
I believe what God himself said that when NEXT he wipes life from the earth it will be with fire.

Does He destroy all life or does He not?

As far as destruction of evil, when do you believe this happens? Surely it must be sometime after the New H&E are established for scripture is clear that evil people exist on the New earth, just outside the gates of the Holy city:

Revelation 22:14-15
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside [the city] are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.


At what point after this verse do you find the destruction of these evil people who are said to exist outside the city's gates?
 
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soulsisterclaire

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As a relative newcomer, I am totally ignorant to all this preterist stuff, I don't even know if I spelled it right...

One thing I have learned here in this thread was said by VOW. VOW, you said that Catholics believe that everything in the Book of Revelations has already occurred, in 70 AD?

Are you serious? Is that really what Catholics believe?

Just curious...

[this is not intended to make this a Catholic thread]
 
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davo

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Originally posted by The Messenger
i also know from my studies of the Hebrew language and literature what a chiasm is. the great majority of OT writing is in this form, not understanding this leads to great error. whenever judgement is pronounced on a particular nation or people, there is accompanied with it a reminder that the entire world itself will be judged, as occured in Noah's day.

Messenger -when you say "the great majority of OT writing is in this form, not understanding this leads to great error" I think you are over-stating the case. There is a lot of chiasmus in both testaments, but certainly not a majority. Can you explain your thoughts around how you see the lack of knowledge of "chiasmus" as impinging on how one understands in this instance -"prophetic passages."

blessings

davo
 
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parousia70

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Originally posted by soulsisterclaire
As a relative newcomer, I am totally ignorant to all this preterist stuff, I don't even know if I spelled it right...

One thing I have learned here in this thread was said by VOW. VOW, you said that Catholics believe that everything in the Book of Revelations has already occurred, in 70 AD?

Are you serious? Is that really what Catholics believe?

Just curious...

[this is not intended to make this a Catholic thread]

Yes you spelled it right! :D

Coming from a Catholic background, I can say with confidence that Catholics are very strong "partial preterists" believing that everything in the Book of Revelation up to Chapter 19 or 20 found it's fulfillment in the first century. Catholics take on what might be considered an "amillennial' view, placing the coined 'church age' in the "millennium".

Catholics adhere to the scriptural truth that the Church is Christs Body presently manifest on earth, and will be victorious in conquering the earth. Where they differ with full preterists is that they see Christs 2nd coming as the event that comes at the end of the victorious march of the church through the ages, while full preterists see the 2nd coming as the event that began the victorious march through the ages of the full grown church.

VOW can correct any errors or misrepresentations I have made here, But I believe I'm on the mark.

YBIC,
P70
 
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are Christians any different that Paul? we have the promise of eternal life, but we have not yet received it, we have redemption from sin because of the cross, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the hope of resurerction.

in short, the working of the spiritual kingdom is no different now than it was anytime post 31ad, and i beleive the spiritual kingdom came in working and power decades before 70ad, which explains the line i tease GW with many times "preterism is not preterist enough" ;)

quote by davo:
"This is where it can "appear" a little clouded at times because Paul does talk in "now and not yet" terms -does that make sense?"

i understand what you mean, but Paul speaking plainly in "now and not yet" terms would only be "clouded" if you try to change the meaning of what he says. he speaks of spiritual redemption in "present" terms:

Ephesians 1:7
In him we have redemption through his blood , the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace

and physical redemption in "not yet terms"

Romans 8:23
and not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

i think a few things are telling, in the first part of Romans 8:23 he mentions "but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit" is a reference to the spiritual redemption mentioned in Ephesians 1:7 which only stands to reason: the gift of grace must be accepted before physical death in order to receive eternal life.

the preterist view has these redemptions being the same one, which would make the "now" and "not yet" terms seem confusing, but the view i present of a physical resurrection takes these verses as literal in the "now" and not yet" sense. the argument GW presents for example is not a "redemption" of the body, but instead the abandonment of one body in favor of another.
 
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soulsisterclaire

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Coming from a Catholic background, I can say with confidence that Catholics are very strong "partial preterists" believing that everything in the Book of Revelation up to Chapter 19 or 20 found it's fulfillment in the first century.

Thanks for replying to my questions.

I have another though, how do you(or they)Biblically justify that Chapters 19&20 have already occurred? What verses reflect that?
 
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davo

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Originally posted by Catchup

I have no idea why they must ruin all our threads bombarding them with their beliefs! They are using verses out of context and downplaying or completely ignoring verses that do not support their opinions. What do they have to gain, but to impose their will upon others? I know I am guilty of being pushy, when it comes to an atheist, and maybe that isn't right either. But at least,I am fighting for a soul! All they want is that we all think as they do.They are like children demanding that it be there way! Why can't they just stay out of End Time threads? Do they think that we can cause the world to end, merely by believing it to be true?
Please, just leave us alone!!

Pretty strong stuff Catchup. It almost sounds like you see yourselves (futurists of whatever persuasion) as the "can do no wrong Israelis" and we (of the preteristic persuasion) as no-good dirty-dog, gentile Palestinian terrorists. :( -are you planning on pushing us out?

davo
 
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Originally posted by parousia70
Messenger,
Are you now back-peddling away from this previous statement you made?:

no, i was just not specific enough :D i clarified later

Originally posted by parousia70
Does He destroy all life or does He not?

i have already answered this question.

Originally posted by parousia70
As far as destruction of evil, when do you believe this happens? Surely it must be sometime after the New H&E are established for scripture is clear that evil people exist on the New earth, just outside the gates of the Holy city:

so are you saying new jerusalem is a literal city on earth?

Originally posted by parousia70
Revelation 22:14-15
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside [the city] are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.


At what point after this verse do you find the destruction of these evil people who are said to exist outside the city's gates?

here:

Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 20
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
 
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VOW

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To All,

I'm not going to get wrapped up in a label of preterist, amillennial, pre-millennial, etc etc etc etc etc etc.

Catholics do not believe in a "Rapture," per se. However, Catholics DO believe that Jesus will come again.

This is from the Profession of Faith.

"He (meaning Jesus) will come again in Glory to judge the Living and the Dead, and His Kingdom will have no end."

The "Rapture" as proposed by SOME Protestants is a relatively new concept, borne of the 1800s, and the theory has changed over time, so you'll find Rapturists arguing amongst themselves as to the actual events which will occur.

As I've stated before, I'm not going to worry about it. I'm not going to sell my house, quit my job, put on a white robe, and stand on a mountaintop, waiting. There is too much still to see and do in this wonderful world that God created, too many people to meet and share the Gospel with.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Originally posted by davo
Messenger -when you say "the great majority of OT writing is in this form, not understanding this leads to great error" I think you are over-stating the case. There is a lot of chiasmus in both testaments, but certainly not a majority. Can you explain your thoughts around how you see the lack of knowledge of "chiasmus" as impinging on how one understands in this instance -"prophetic passages."

blessings

davo


because chiatic style does not consist of one point, but is a series of points arranged in a series of differing patterns, usually with the first point also being the last, the 2nd being next to last..etc. and a chiasm can also have chiasms within it. many scholars believe the bible as a whole is a chiasm with this being the first and last points.

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alep and the Tau, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
 
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