Perpetual- What does it mean?

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Daron

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thereselittleflower said:
Quite to the contrary . I believe the New Convenant is for everyone. So you are incorrect in your assumption.


Let's look at that verse in context:

But first, lets address what you left out of my post.

Here it is again,

Please post a scripture that says,

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of the Gentiles after those days, says Yahuah: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.

Or post any scriptures that speaks of a covenant made with the gentiles.

Daron
 
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Daron

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thereselittleflower said:
As Jews under the Old Convenant . . Are you suggesting they remained under the Old Convenant after Jesus had established the New Convenant? Or that they were bound to the Old Covenant after Jesus established the New?


Peace in Him!

Please, before you get to other questions, simply answer mine with an answer that applies to what is asked and I then will do the same.

Was Mary (Mother of God?) and Peter (first pope?) of the House of Yisrael?

If so, they also observed the perpetual covenant, Correct?

Daron
 
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thereselittleflower

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Daron

If you wish to be controlling of the conversation in this manner, then we really cannot converse . .

If you do not wish to clarify what you are saying by responding to my questions, I really don't see the point in answering yours . . they come across as in a manner designed to entrap someone into saying something that they are not really saying ..

I do not agree with how you appear to me to be using the word "perpetual" in this context .. however, since you will not answer my questions and I need clarification from you so I can intelligently answer your questions, I cannot answer yours in good faith since I truly believe that they will result in misunderstandings between us.



Peace in Him!
 
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Daron

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thereselittleflower said:
We are not grafted into Israel . .we are grafted into Christ who is the root . . and we become partakers of Christ - of the root and the fatness of the olive tree . .

Yes, I am grafted in, but not into or by the Old Covenant.

:)

Peace in Him!

Oh no, the scriptures teach the grafted in are grafted into the Olive Tree and then partake of the root with them.


Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,

----
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


The grafted in were cut out of the Olive Tree (Yisrael).

So, please tell us when were you cut out of the Olive Tree, that you could be grafted back in?

Daron
 
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Daron

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thereselittleflower said:
Daron


I do not agree with how you appear to me to be using the word "perpetual" in this context .. however, since you will not answer my questions and I need clarification from you so I can intelligently answer your questions, I cannot answer yours in good faith since I truly believe that they will result in misunderstandings between us.



Peace in Him!

Ok, let me try this. But please read all of my posts in this topic to see what the main points are of the topic with the issue of the perpetual covenant of the seventh day Sabbath given to the House of Yisrael.

What is the meaning of Perpetual?

thereselittleflower said:
As Jews under the Old Convenant . . Are you suggesting they remained under the Old Convenant after Jesus had established the New Convenant? Or that they were bound to the Old Covenant after Jesus established the New?


Peace in Him!

Please, before you get to other questions, simply answer mine with an answer that applies to what is asked and I then will do the same.

Was Mary (Mother of God?) and Peter (first pope?) of the House of Yisrael?

If so, they also observed the perpetual covenant of the Seventh Day Sabbath, Correct?

Daron
 
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thereselittleflower

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Daron said:
Ok, let me try this. But please read all of my posts in this topic to see what the main points are of the topic with the issue of the perpetual covenant of the seventh day Sabbath given to the House of Yisrael.
I already did so before beginning to post here.

Please, before you get to other questions, simply answer mine with an answer that applies to what is asked and I then will do the same.

Was Mary (Mother of God?) and Peter (first pope?) of the House of Yisrael?

If so, they also observed the perpetual covenant of the Seventh Day Sabbath, Correct?

Daron
Hi Daron

I have already answered that question . . please see the beginning of my response you quoted in your post above . .

As Jews under the Old Convenant . .



Now . . do you see how Paul speaks of 2 olive trees? Do you see how your statement and question to me here:

The grafted in were cut out of the Olive Tree (Yisrael).

So, please tell us when were you cut out of the Olive Tree, that you could be grafted back in?
are based on a wrong understanding of what Paul was saying?

The grafted in Paul is speaking of were not cut out of the cultivated olive tree but out of the wild one.

So do you see that I was not cut out of the Olive Tree I am now grafted into?


Peace in Him!
 
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Daron

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thereselittleflower said:
Daron

I think you need to read those scripture passages again . . did you note that he speaks of 2 olive trees?


Peace in Him!

Yes it does, one wild one and one cultivated olive tree.

Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

The wild olive tree (old Yisrael) which people (natural branches) are cut out of, but are grafted into their own olive tree but cultivated. Yahuah changed the nature of the wild tree to a cultivated one through Yahshuah.

Again:

The grafted in were cut out of the Olive Tree (Yisrael).

So, please tell us when were you cut out of the Olive Tree, that you could be grafted back in?

Daron
 
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Daron

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thereselittleflower said:
I already did so before beginning to post here.

Hi Daron

I have already answered that question . . please see the beginning of my response you quoted in your post above . .

But first and again, lets address what you left out of my last post.

What is the meaning of Perpetual?

Thank you!
 
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thereselittleflower

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Daron said:
But first and again, lets address what you left out of my last post.

What is the meaning of Perpetual?

Thank you!
I did not realize you were asking me that . . but, to address your quesiton, the proper question to ask is not what is the meaning of perpetual, but rather what is the meaning of "olam" . .

I don't have time to devote to exploring the meainng of that word right now, so please forgive me for not addressing it further . .

Peace in Him!
 
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thereselittleflower

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But real quick . . here are some definitions:

[size=+1]Olam, aion, and aonion are defined in dictionaries, lexicons, commentaries, and the like, as follows: (Here is one of those long listed I mentioned)[/size]
  • [size=+1]Page and Company's Business Man's Dictionary and Guide to English: Eon: A long space of time; cycle; forever; eternally; always; at all times.[/size]
  • [size=+1]New World Dictionary: Eon: Period of immense duration; an age; endless; for eternity.[/size]
  • [size=+1]Webster's Collegiate Dictionary: Eon (n.): An immeasurable or indefinite period of time; incessantly; synonym of constantly, continuously, always, perpetually, unceasingly, everlastingly, endlessly.[/size]
  • [size=+1]Standard Unabridged Dictionary: Eon: An age of the universe; an incalculable period, constituting one of the longest conceivable divisions of time; a cosmic or geological cycle; an eternity, or eternity. The present age, or eon, is time; the future age, or eon, is eternity.[/size]
  • [size=+1]Shedd Theological Dictionary (vol. II, p. 683): Eonian: pertaining to, or lasting for eons; everlasting; eternal.[/size]
  • [size=+1]Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon: Aion: A period of existence; one's lifetime; life; an age; a generation; a long space of time; an age. A space of time clearly defined and marked out; an era, epoch, age, period or dispensation.[/size]
  • [size=+1]Thesaurus Dictionary of the English Language: Eon: An age of the universe.[/size]
  • [size=+1]Earnest Weekly's Etymological Dictionary of Modern English: Aeon: Age.[/size]
  • [size=+1]Universal Dictionary: Aeon: A period of immense duration; an age.[/size]
  • [size=+1]Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon: Aionios: (1) without beginning or end; that which has been and always will be. (2) without beginning. (3) without end, never to cease, everlasting.[/size]
  • [size=+1]Encyclopedic Dictionary of the Bible: Eternity: The Bible hardly speaks of eternity in a philosophical sense of infinite duration without beginning or end. The Hebrew word olam, which is used alone (Ps. 61:8) or with various prepositions (Ge. 3:22; 13:15, etc.) in contexts where it is traditionally translated "forever," means, in itself, no more than "for an indefinitely long period." Thus, me-olam does not mean "from eternity," but "of old" (Ge 6:4, etc.). In the N.T., aion is used as the equivalent of olam.[/size]
  • [size=+1]The New Testament in Modern Speech, by Dr. R. F. Weymouth: Eternal: Greek: "aeonion," i.e., "of the ages." Etymologically this adjective, like others similarly formed, does not signify "during," but "belonging to" the aeons or ages.[/size]
  • [size=+1]The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible (vol. IV, p. 643): Time: The O.T. and the N.T are not acquainted with the conception of eternity as timelessness. The O.T. has not developed a special term for "eternity." The word aion originally meant "vital force," "life;" then "age," "lifetime." It is, however, also used generally of a (limited or unlimited) long space of time. The use of the word aion is determined very much by the O.T. and the LXX. Aion means "long distant uninterrupted time" in the past (Luke 1:10), as well as in the future (John 4:14).[/size]
  • [size=+1]Ellicott's Commentary on the Whole Bible (Matt. 25:46): Everlasting punishment-life eternal. The two adjectives represent the same Greek word, aionios-it must be admitted (1) that the Greek word which is rendered "eternal" does not, in itself, involve endlessness, but rather, duration, whether through an age or succession of ages, and that it is therefore applied in the N.T. to periods of time that have had both a beginning and ending (Rom. 16:25), where the Greek is "from aeonian times;" our version giving "since the world began." (Comp. 2 Tim. 1:9; ***. 1:3) -strictly speaking, therefore, the word, as such, apart from its association with any qualifying substantive, implies a vast undefined duration, rather than one in the full sense of the word "infinite."[/size]
  • [size=+1]Triglot Dictionary of Representative Words in Hebrew, Greek and English [this dictionary lists the words in this order: English, Greek, Hebrew] (p. 122): Eternal (see age-lasting). (p. 6): English: age-lasting; Greek, aionios; Hebrew, le-olam.[/size]
  • [size=+1]A Greek-English Lexicon, by Arndt and Gingrich: (1) Aion: time; age; very long time; eternity. (2) A segment of time; age. (3) The world. (4) The aion as a person: aionios, eternal. 1. Without beginning. 2. Without beginning or end. 3. Without end.[/size]
  • [size=+1]Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, by Abbott-Smith: Aion: A space of time, as a lifetime, generation, period of history, an indefinitely long period-an age, eternity.[/size]
  • [size=+1]Hasting's Dictionary of the New Testament (vol. I, p. 542, art. Christ and the Gospels): Eternity. There is no word either in the O.T. Hebrew or in the N.T. Greek to express the abstract idea of eternity. (vol. III, p. 369): Eternal, everlasting-nonetheless "eternal" is misleading, inasmuch as it has come in the English to connote the idea of "endlessly existing," and thus to be practically a synonym for "everlasting." But this is not an adequate rendering of aionios which varies in meaning with the variations of the noun aion from which it comes. (p. 370): The chronois aioniois moreover, are not to be thought of as stretching backward everlastingly, as it is proved by the pro chronon aionion of 2 Tim. 1:9; ***. 1:2.[/size]
From AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
 
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