Satan is history ?

GW · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by Ephesian
Well guys (GW, parousia70, Hoonbaba, Davo) would you be surprised if I said I disagree? Try as I might to see your point of view, I still think there are plenty verses that speak to the contrary including some of those you used to support your position. Go figure.

I wouldn't at all be surprised. I would, however, suggest a book or two for some further investigation.

When I first came across preterist eschatology it sounded silly because I was taught the doctrines of Hal Lindsey and Van Impe and John Walvoord and had no idea at the time that their views on bible prophecy were merely 150 years old at the most. I had never heard that the Church prior to these men had held entirely different views and that the "pretrb-rapture" concept had never been taught anywhere in the Church prior to the 1830s. (Same with the 7-years Tribulation Period and other major concepts). Boy, was I shocked when I began to investigate the Truth on this.

I would encourage you to keep investigating the various endtimes beliefs held by great Christans down the centuries and realize that the LaHaye flavor is less than 150 years old. It is the "new kid" on the block, so to speak. Here are some links and books that I think are just great:

End Times Fiction: A Biblical Consideration of the Left Behind Theology
by Gary DeMar
Book examines Left Behind theology in the light of scripture to see if these fiction books are based on fictitious theology. Click on title to read reviews!
*or click here to listen to interview with author using Real Audio.

Revelation : Four Views : A Parallel Commentary
by Steve Gregg (Editor), (Hardcover - April 1997)
This commentary takes a look at Revelation using all FOUR main views side by side so one can compare them to each other. Average Customer Review: 4.5 stars out of 5 on Amazon.com
-- The book is recommended by notables such as Pastor Jack Hayford. Click Link!

The Day and the Hour
by Francis Gumerlock
--Chronicles the false interpretations of end-time prophecy throughout church history. You will learn about some of the most bizarre scoundrels and heretics in church history as well as some orthodox folks who were simply reading the Bible in light of world events rather than the opposite. Very entertaining and informative.

Originally posted by Ephesian
Somehow, your view seems kind of depressing. Maybe I don't understand it completely.

I would agree that, for those who have a worldview based on today's short-range endtimes thinking, the preterist view might seem confusing. Eschatology informs our worldview more than any other aspect of the scriptures. Preterism is a long-term covenantal view of our lives and Christ's nation. It sees that the Advent of the Messiah took the covenant nation of Israel and gave it a global, universal mission and dominion over all things. Therefore we are simply the next generation of Joshuas and Davids and Ezras and Pauls and Marys and Deborahs whose mission relates to the victorious destiny and inheritance of the Covenant people of God. We are the people of Hebrews 11 faith and dominon. We are the People who God has predestined that we might "establish righteousness and subdue kingdoms" as did the heroes of our Faith (Heb 11:33). And so we are the only nation upon earth that has been given all dominion over Heaven and earth to subdue it and establish Christ's law and rule among mankind.

Indeed the Church used to think that way up until the late 1800s and 1900s when the endtimes leaders (Darby, Scofield, Moody, Sunday, Lindsey, Impe, etc) began to teach a doctrine of "predestined endtimes defeatism for the Church." Their prescription to the Church? Withdrawal. Retreat. "Come out from her my people." Don't vote. "You Don't polish brass on a sinking ship." Your kids aren't gonna live long enough to choose a career, spouse or college. Etc. etc. etc. This short-term thinking has brought ruin to our Churches and total ruin to America which was founded on great faith by Christians who were mostly unfamiliar with endtimes short-term thinking patterns. The pioneers of America were builders and people who saw human history throught the eyes of all-powerful faith and Divine destiny. That worldview and faith has been lost due to false endtimes dogmas.

Finally, I would say that debate should be encouraged but only with the highest respect and Christian love. We are the household of God and must conduct ourselves within that higher calling at all times and in all that we do. There is no excuse for bickering and such. All apologies to anyone here if I have ever caused any offense.

I love all Christ's Church and pray my life will be a blessing to all, even in discussions and Christian debate. Let's all hold each other to that higher standard.

With you in the riches of Christ,
GW

GW · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by rpggal
(GW, parousia70, Hoonbaba, Davo)
Sorry. But I just couldn't agree with your views.
For me, I took the futuristic views, that believed that Satan is not yet doomed.
Defeated, yes.
But he is still accusing us.
But to no avail.

However, I do enjoy reading all your views.

Hi rpggal, and Christ's victory to you!

Thanks for posting. I would encourage you to look deeper into the victory of Jesus Christ at the Cross and the powers it unleashed through the removal of the curse from the people of God.

Satan WAS the accuser of the brethren during the Old Testament era. It was his job. How did he conduct his role? Job 1 and 2 show us how. Satan would argue the case against God's people based on the law that once held God's people under His judgment. But Christ came and REMOVED sin and the Law of Moses which separated us from Jehovah and then reconciled us to himself and made us the manifested sons and daughters of God. We are no longer slaves with are sins held against us -- we are sons and daughters of the Most High God and the Judge has declared us "NOT GUILTY" and dismissed satan's case forever. Paul explains it this way, and please read this closely:

Romans 8:1, 31-34
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus ... whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God is for us,who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

So we see here how Jesus Christ argued our case to the Father based on His own blood and we have been declared JUSTIFIED. Case dismissed. If the Judge himself has pardoned and justified then no more accusations can be brought. The Kingdom of God does not allow double jeopardy. We are fully pardoned and God has justified his people and made them sons and daughters. Case dismissed. We are free. We are now no longer slaves under the curse but are the family of God. Angels no longer judge the saints, but, rather, the saints have judged the angels!

You are the daughter of God rpggal. You are not accused by anyone.

QUESTION: "If God is for us,who can be against us? ... Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?"

ANSWER: No one. You have been justified by the Judge Himself.

Case dismissed. The accuser of the brethren has been cast down due to Christ's salvation.

With you in the victory of Christ,
GW

GW · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by rpggal
Well, a bit of self-intro about myself. Beside being a christian freak, I am also a poetry freak, a story freak, an anime freak

rpggal,

Have you ever seen the anime movie "Princess Mononoke" by Hayao Miyazaki?

Great movie!

Abraham's blessing be upon you.
GW

GW · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by Catchup
I love all you guys. I have chosen for now, to debate this no further.

God bless you. Christ's love reigns supreme here.

Originally posted by Catchup
Luke 21:25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place

Angelic Armies Did War in the Skies
a few days after that feast, on the one-and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities

The Sun-Bright Christ Appears AT the TEMPLE Before Its Desolation
"Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also, before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eight day of the month Xanthicus, [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day-time; which light lasted for half an hour, and was so interpreted by the sacred scribes as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it."
-- Josephus - The Wars of the Jews
Book VI, Chapter 6, Section 3 (Entire)

The summary of these events even were so widely witnessed that they appeared in the History of Rome, and were recorded by the famous secular historian Tacitus:

The Armies of the Lord
"In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightening flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure" (Tacitus - Histories, v. 13).

Jewish records show that the Jews had come to recognize that the Shekinah glory of God remained over the Mount of Olives for 3.5 years. During this period a voice was heard to come from the region of the Mount of Olives asking the Jews to repent of their doings (Midrash - Lam. 2:11).

Many more cosmic signs were observed and recorded in this period when the greatest Day of Jehovah destruction came against Israel in its history.

Originally posted by Catchup
stand up and lift up your heads[/B] , because your redemption is drawing near.

We are redeemed. We are not awaiting Christ's redemption of his people.

Hoonbaba · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by GW

rpggal,

Have you ever seen the anime movie "Princess Mononoke" by Hayao Miyazaki?

Great movie!

Abraham's blessing be upon you.
GW

GW,

Did you ever listen to the soundtrack to it? =)

Actually, are you aware of the symphonic suite version of this album, which came out only in Japan.

-Jason

GW · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by Hoonbaba

GW,

Did you ever listen to the soundtrack to it? =)

Actually, are you aware of the symphonic suite version of this album, which came out only in Japan.

-Jason

Nope. But I do remember being immersed in the sights and sounds of the flick. Very creative movie.

Ephesian · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by GW

Indeed the Church used to think that way up until the late 1800s and 1900s when the endtimes leaders (Darby, Scofield, Moody, Sunday, Lindsey, Impe, etc) began to teach a doctrine of "predestined endtimes defeatism for the Church." Their prescription to the Church? Withdrawal. Retreat. "Come out from her my people." Don't vote. "You Don't polish brass on a sinking ship." Your kids aren't gonna live long enough to choose a career, spouse or college. Etc. etc. etc. This short-term thinking has brought ruin to our Churches...
GW

Well...I was just going to sit here and read, but I had to respond to this. I guess you would call me a "futurist", but I can't agree with the above quote at all.

I in no way see the Church as defeated. We are more than victors. Satan was defeated. There is no way I would preach withdrawal, retreat, don't vote or tell the kids to forget it because the end is almost here. That would be kind of stupid. I look forward with confidence, in peace, and with the expectation of one who is going home to be with their most precious love. I think this makes a Church stronger, not ruinous.

By the way, are you using the works of Tacitus and Josephus for conformation? That is unreliable. Nuggets of truth through tainted eyes with a propensity for embellishment. That would be like me talking about my kids baseball team. They are the greatest thing since sliced bread or they are so bad they have to pay the fans to come and watch. Both statements are exagerations, the truth lies in the middle. They are just two human beings with all the baggage that goes along with that. Their words are not gospel and should be taken as such. Or did I read something into your post?

Lastly, I think I will pick up the book "Four Views".

GW · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by Ephesian
Well...I was just going to sit here and read, but I had to respond to this. I guess you would call me a "futurist", but I can't agree with the above quote at all.

Ephesian:

I was not giving my opinion but was asserting an historic fact -- that is, the implications of the "were the final generation" mentality were spelled out by men like D.L. Moody, C.I. Scofield, etc etc. They believed that since they were in the final moments, no human efforts should be made in the realm of normal life and society so as to establish a more godly polity and government. According to their views, evil was predestined to win the day and the Church was predestined to withdrawal so as to escape. (Please read your American History book about baptist minister William Miller and the "Great Disappointment of 1844."

C.I. Scofield discouraged voting! And, I believe it was Moody's famous line that: "You Don't Polish Brass on a Sinking Ship," which meant that Christians simply could not stem the tide of predestined last days wickedness and should, therefore, retreat. The earth was a "sinking ship" and so Christian endeavor was in vain. This has been disastrous to our society since it is the mainstream mindset amongst evangelicals.

What if Moses would have had such a mindset? What if Lincoln or Washington would have had such a mindset? What will happen if the evangelicals continue to have such a mindset? We must not continue to fail our children and grandchildren by endtimes laziness and withdrawal.

Katya · Apr 17, 2002

Satan's been defeated? :scratch:

Why would you think that he's been defeated? That's crazy. :sigh:

Ephesian · Apr 17, 2002

He has no power over those who are in Christ Jesus.

Katya · Apr 17, 2002

You're right, but that doesn't mean he's been defeated. He has no power over ANY of us, unless we give it to him. But that by no way means that he's defeated.

parousia70 · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by Katya
Satan's been defeated?

Why would you think that he's been defeated? That's crazy.

Hi Katya, The reason I believe Satan to be defeated is because the Bible teaches that he is defeated:

Luke 10:18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

John 16:11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Col 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Satan has been forever defeated, Judged and is currently serving his eternal sentance.

YBIC,
P70

Katya · Apr 17, 2002

Thanx parousia. I now understand more fully why ppl think that.

Hishandmaiden · Apr 17, 2002

parousia70,
Defeated means that he has no longer has power over those who believed in Christ,
but he can still taunts the non-believers.
Doomed means he is cast into hell and is destroyed.
GW,
was the anime good? What is it actually about?

Hoonbaba · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by parousia70

Hi Katya, The reason I believe Satan to be defeated is because the Bible teaches that he is defeated:

Luke 10:18 And He said to them, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

John 16:11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

Col 2:15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

Hebrews 2:14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

1 John 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Satan has been forever defeated, Judged and is currently serving his eternal sentance.

YBIC,
P70

Amen!! =)

It's great knowing that we are truly 100% free in Christ =)

-Jason

seekingtruth · Apr 18, 2002

Why do people argue against the plain teaching of scripture? Incredible!

Satan has been defeated, but that does not mean that evil does not exist.

Unless a person gives himself over to God he will remain a slave to sin.

We are either slaves to Christ or slaves to sin. It is that simple.

Hoonbaba, 1Parousia70 and GW, those scripture references were right on and to deny those or try to twist their meaning is demeaning to the Word of God.

Christ has defeated Satan or else our faith is in vain.

parousia70 · Apr 18, 2002

Hiya Cynthia!
welcome to the boards!
Great post!
I look forward to your futher sharing of your insight.

Peace,
P70

parousia70 · Apr 18, 2002

Originally posted by Katya
Thanx parousia. I now understand more fully why ppl think that.

My Pleasure Katya, I'm glad I could help.

If you have any other questions, I would be honored to attempt an answer from my limited understanding.

YBIC,
P70

parousia70 · Apr 18, 2002

Originally posted by rpggal
parousia70,
Defeated means that he has no longer has power over those who believed in Christ,
but he can still taunts the non-believers.
Doomed means he is cast into hell and is destroyed.

rpggal,
when you say destroyed, does that mean you are an annihilationist?

Do you believe Satan is sentaced to suffer eternal torment, or do you believe his sentance is to be utterly extinguished?
The way I see it, it can't be both, for in order to suffer eternal torment, one must eternally exist.

How do you see it?

Thanks,
P70

davo · Apr 18, 2002

Originally posted by seekingtruth Why do people argue against the plain teaching of scripture? Incredible!

Satan has been defeated, but that does not mean that evil does not exist.

Unless a person gives himself over to God he will remain a slave to sin.

We are either slaves to Christ or slaves to sin. It is that simple.

Hoonbaba, 1Parousia70 and GW, those scripture references were right on and to deny those or try to twist their meaning is demeaning to the Word of God.

Christ has defeated Satan or else our faith is in vain.

G'day Cynthia! :wave:

Absolutely correct -you don't need Satan nor demons to have sin and evil -I'll say it again "this world's problem is SIN not Satan; it's Doubt, not the Devil.

Good to have you 'on-board'

davo

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