Futurists vs Preterists

GW · Apr 16, 2002

Originally posted by postrib
[The Olivet Discourse] may be [for us today], if you or I are alive when it is fulfilled, which it still has not been.

It cannot be for us today. Both the grammar and the context of the passage tell us that Jesus was speaking to his apostles about things THEY were to experience. The "YOU" in the following verses are the apostes: Matt 24:4, 6, 9, 15, 20, 23, 25, 26, 33, 34.

Jesus, speaking to his apostles, promised:

Matthew 24:33-34
So, YOU too [the apostles], when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say TO YOU [that] THIS generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

There is no textual way that Matthew 24 speaks to anyone to Christ's contemporaries to whom Jesus was speaking. The grammar demands and ensures a 1st century fulfillment in their generation.

The Messenger · Apr 16, 2002

Originally posted by Hoonbaba
Hm...
And 1 Corinthians 15:50 says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. But those Job passages are interesting. I'll spend time reading on them later.

i agree flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom, the bible plainly says so! but Jesus Himself said he was flesh and bone, not a spirit. He inherited His kingdom i do not think he was decieving people when he told them this.

blood is the life of anything mortal, blood was for sacrifice and Mosaic law demands blood not be eaten for the same reason

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life.

Deuteronomy 12:23
Only be sure that you do not eat the blood; for the blood is the life, and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.

rollinTHUNDER · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by parousia70
Php 2:19
But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.

I suppose if the proper interpratation of "you" in the NT includes me today, and the proper interpratation of "shortly" includes the year 2002 or later, I'd better be expecting Timothy to ring my doorbell any time now!

How many times should Christ be crucified?? How many times when you say "you", do you mean = this generation??

Christ died once, and for ALL

If this was the New Earth as you preterists believe, then Why do we still have to get saved?? What are we to get saved from?? Don't say sin, because sin came from Satan.

parousia70 · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by rollinTHUNDER

How many times should Christ be crucified?? How many times when you say "you", do you mean = this generation??

Christ died once, and for ALL

If this was the New Earth as you preterists believe, then Why do we still have to get saved?? What are we to get saved from?? Don't say sin, because sin came from Satan.

Hi Thunder, according to Revelation 21 & 22, in the New Heavens and earth, The gates of the Holy city are always open, and Kings continue to bring their riches into it, while just outside the gates of the city, on the new earth, are dogs and sorcerors, Liars and fornicators, murderers etc... but the spirit and the bride continue to call out to all outside the city who "thirst" to come in and drink freely of the water of Life. Also we see on either side of the river, the tree which leaves are for the "healing" of the nations. Showing us that on the new earth, the "nations" are in need of perpetual healing.

A more perfect picture of the New covenant reality we live in today could not be imagined by this christian.

YBIC,P70

parousia70 · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger

Jesus Himself said he was flesh and bone, not a spirit. He inherited His kingdom i do not think he was decieving people when he told them this.

Are you saying Jesus was raised from the tomb in His glorified Body?

Thanks,
P70

The Messenger · Apr 17, 2002

quote by parousia70
"Are you saying Jesus was raised from the tomb in His glorified Body?"

in answer to your question , scripture speaks for itself.

John 2:18-22
The Jews then said to him, "What sign have you to show us for doing this?" Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body. When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this; and they believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

Luke 24:1-7

But on the first day of the week, at early dawn, they went to the tomb, taking the spices which they had prepared. And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they went in they did not find the body. While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in dazzling apparel; and as they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, "Why do you seek the living among the dead? Remember how he told you, while he was still in Galilee, that the Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and on the third day rise."

John 36:39
As they were saying this, Jesus himself stood among them . But they were startled and frightened, and supposed that they saw a spirit. And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do questionings rise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have ."

to sum it up...yes! he returned to the glory he had before the world was made, no different than what he was in the OT where we see him as the Angel of the LORD

GW · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger
since being a Trinitarian i believe Christ is the Physical manifestation of God, it would be "this" Jesus(Acts 1:11) that would return. this presents another problem for preterism, they have a theory saying Christ came back in 70ad, but cannot seem to produce him. the return of Christ is not a visit, scripture does not have him hovering around a bit then leaving, it has him staying.

If you believe that Christ came in the flesh, left, and returned at AD 30 "in the person of the Holy Spirit," then why do you find it so hard to believe he returned in that generation (as he promised his apostles) "in the glory of the Father," Jehovah, as stated in Matthew 16:27? Did Yahweh not come in the 600s-500s BC in this passage as Zephaniah promised?:

Zephaniah 1:1-5
The word of Yahweh which came to Zephaniah... I will utterly sweep away everything off of the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will sweep away man and animal. I will sweep away the birds of the sky, the fish of the sea, and the heaps of rubble with the wicked. I will cut off man from the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will stretch out my hand against Judah, and against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place: the name of the idolatrous and pagan priests, those who worship the host of the sky on the housetops, those who worship and swear by Yahweh and also swear by Malcam

Surely Yahweh did do that as Zephaniah promised those wicked men of his day. Did Yahweh not judge come down and judge Egypt?

Isaiah 19:1-2
The burden of Egypt. Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight everyone against his brother, and everyone against his neighbor; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.

Surely Yahweh came down on a swift cloud to Egypt and did pit kingdom against kingdom.

So why can you not understand how Jesus came "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27), the exact glory to which he was returned according to John 17:5?

John 17:5
'And now, glorify me, Thou Father, WITH THYSELF, with the glory that I had before the world was

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man will come IN THE GLORY OF HIS FATHER

In John 17:5 Jesus was returned back to the glory he had with the Father that he had before the world was. So why is it so hard to understand that Jesus came in AD 70 in that exact same glory Yahweh had and in the same way Yahweh came down during the O.T. period?

It is totally contradictory of you to preach that Christ came as the Holy Spirit in AD 30 and that he came as the Angel of the Lord in the O.T. but that he did NOT come in Yahweh's glory at AD 70, which was the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history.

parousia70 · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger

to sum it up...yes! he returned [out of the tomb] to the glory he had before the world was made, no different than what he was in the OT where we see him as the Angel of the LORD

I disagree.
Let me state 'for the record' that I do not believe that Jesus was resurrected in a 'glorified' body. I believe that His body was the same as the one crucified. It had no 'supernatural' powers different than before his death. Everything was the same, save the fact that it could not be put to death again.

Please consider the following:

John 7.39. 'But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.'

Here we see that the spirit would be given when Jesus was glorified. During the forty days after his resurrection, the HS was not given. Only after the ascension was the HS given.

John 12.16. 'These things His disciples did not understand at the first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written of Him, and that they had done these things to Him.'

In the context of this verse Jesus rode into Jerusalem on the donkey and the people cheered. This, again, was only understood by them after his ascension and not during the 40 days.

John 17.24. ' "Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given Me, be with Me where I am, in order that they may behold My glory, which Thou hast given Me; for Thou didst love Me before the foundation of the world."

Here, Jesus expressly declared that the disciples would 'behold [His] glory' when they were with him where he was. This was not referring anytime on earth, but must be referring to after his ascension.

Acts 1.9. 'And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.'

Lastly, we know that 'cloud' represents the glory of God. It seems clear that it was at this moment that Jesus was glorified.

From the references cited above, it should be clear that Jesus did not have a 'glorified body' while on this earth.

The Messenger · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by GW
If you believe that Christ came in the flesh, left, and returned at AD 30 "in the person of the Holy Spirit," then why do you find it so hard to believe he returned in that generation (as he promised his apostles) "in the glory of the Father," Jehovah, as stated in Matthew 16:27? Did Yahweh not come in the 600s-500s BC in this passage as Zephaniah promised?: Surely Yahweh did do that as Zephaniah promised those wicked men of his day. Did Yahweh not judge come down and judge Egypt?

he sure did! there have been many "days of the LORD" when judgement came down.

Originally posted by GW
In John 17:5 Jesus was returned back to the glory he had with the Father that he had before the world was. So why is it so hard to understand that Jesus came in AD 70 in that exact same glory Yahweh had and in the same way Yahweh came down during the O.T. period?

we have talked about this before GW, he DID render judgement on Israel...but he has not judged the WORLD yet, God promounced judgment and punished more nations than Israel, that has not changed.

Originally posted by GW
It is totally contradictory of you to preach that Christ came as the Holy Spirit in AD 30 and that he came as the Angel of the Lord in the O.T. but that he did NOT come in Yahweh's glory at AD 70, which was the greatest Day-of-the-Lord event in Israel's history.

that is what it was, A "Day-of-the-Lord event" but not THE day of The LORD. much has been unfulfilled. it is not at all contradictory for me to say the spiritual kingdom came in 30ad because it so obviously did, you and I GW seek the Lord the same way, are under the same New covenant, have the Same Holy Spirit, preach the same gospel of redemption from sin by the cross, and await our redemption from mortality that is due us by our spiritual redemption we already posess...the same way the apostles did pre70ad. they were saved by grace through faith and so are you, in the same way.

GW · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger
he sure did! there have been many "days of the LORD" when judgement came down.

Not "judgment" coming down, but YAHWEH coming down as described here:

Isa 19:1-2
Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians:

Zeph 1:1-5
I will utterly sweep away everything off of the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will sweep away man and animal. I will sweep away the birds of the sky, the fish of the sea, and the heaps of rubble with the wicked. I will cut off man from the surface of the earth, says Yahweh. I will stretch out my hand against Judah, and against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place: the name of the idolatrous and pagan priests, those who worship the host of the sky on the housetops, those who worship and swear by Yahweh and also swear by Malcam

Messenger, Do you believe Yahweh did as the prophets said?

Originally posted by The Messenger
we have talked about this before GW, he DID render judgement on Israel...LORD.

So you agree that Jesus/Jehovah/Holy Spirit came upon Israel in judgment at AD 70?

Originally posted by The Messenger
that is what it was, A "Day-of-the-Lord event" but not THE day of The

Wait a minute..."A" day of the Lord but not "THE" day of the Lord happened at AD 70? Is that a BIBLICAL distinction you are making? What, then, were THESE "THE"-DAY OF-THE-LORD events?

Zephaniah 1:4-7
I will stretch out my hand against Judah, and against all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place: the name of the idolatrous and pagan priests, those who worship the host of the sky on the housetops, those who worship and swear by Yahweh and also swear by Malcam, those who have turned back from following Yahweh, and those who haven't sought Yahweh nor inquired after him. Be silent at the presence of the Lord Yahweh, FOR THE DAY OF YAHWEH IS AT HAND. For Yahweh has prepared a sacrifice. He has consecrated his guests.

Now, the bible says that was "THE" day of Yahweh (the Lord) that took place during Zephaniah's time. Is this, therefore, that "THE"-Day-of-the-Lord event that you are trying to distinguish from some kind of "A"-day-of-the-Lord events? Lookie here as well:

Isaiah 13:6
Wail you; for THE Day of Yahweh is at hand

So what about this "THE"-day-of-Yahweh event? Friend, the bible makes no distinction as you are trying to do. THEREFORE you ultimately are forced to admit that AD 70 was "THE" Day of the Lord, and Israel's greatest "THE" day of the Lord in its history. That's an important concession that you are obligated to make here towards the preterist side. I believe your futurism is crumbling, scripture passage by scripture passage.

Originally posted by The Messenger
it is not at all contradictory for me to say the spiritual kingdom came in 30ad

But you have been saying that JESUS CHRIST came back at AD30 as a SPIRIT. You have said that over and over. Therefore, if you believe Jesus Christ came back at AD 30 as a Spirit then why don't you believe Jesus Christ came back in "THE GLORY OF THE FATHER," Yahweh, at AD 70? Jesus said himself that he was returning back to that very same glory in John 17:5:

John 17:5
Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.

Jesus shows us there that he was glorified back into the glory that he had with Yahweh BEFORE the world ever existed. Why in the world then do you deny that Jesus Christ came in the Glory of the Father at AD 70 when you and I agree Yahweh came down many times in the O.T. period? AD 70 MUST be considered a coming of The Day of The Lord, and the greatest Israel ever had.

You are a living contradiction here if you say that Jesus could come back at AD 30 as a Spirit but THEN INSIST that he did not come back in the Glory of the Father at AD 70, the very glory that Jesus had BEFORE THE WORLD EVER EXISTED (John 17:5).

The solution to your contradiction: Jesus INDEED came back at AD 70 "in the Glory of the Father." As saith the scripture:

Matthew 21:40
WHEN THEREFORE THE LORD OF THE VINEYARD MAY COME, what will he do to these husbandmen?'

Matthew 21:41
They say to him, 'Evil men -- he will evilly destroy them, and the vineyard will give out to other husbandmen, who will give back to him the fruits in their seasons.'

Matthew 21:42
Jesus saith to them, 'Did ye never read in the Writings, A stone that the builders disallowed, it became head of a corner; from the Lord hath this come to pass, and it is wonderful in our eyes.

Matthew 21:43
'Because of this I say TO YOU, that the reign of God shall be taken FROM YOU, and given to a nation bringing forth its fruit;

Matthew 21:44
and he who is falling on this stone shall be broken, and on whomsoever it may fall it will crush him to pieces.'

Matthew 21:45
And the chief priests and the Pharisees having heard his similes, KNEW THAT OF THEM HE SPEAKETH

parousia70 · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger

[God] DID render judgement on Israel...but he has not judged the WORLD yet, God promounced judgment and punished more nations than Israel, that has not changed.

And very often in scripture, God uses the language of Global or even universal destruction to describe His judgements on particular, individual nations.

This idea is seen clearly in passages where mention is made of the destruction of a state and government using language which seems to set forth the end of the world, as the collapse of heaven and earth.

Isaiah 13:1 The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.

In this chapter God is talking about the judgement that is to fall upon Babylon. This introduction sets the stage for the subject matter in this chapter and if we forget this, our interpretations of Isaiah 13 can go just about anywhere our imagination wants to go. This is not an oracle against the universe or world but against the nation of Babylon.

Isaiah 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:9-13 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not give their light; The sun will be darkened in its going forth, And the moon will not cause its light to shine. 11 "I will punish the world for its evil, And the wicked for their iniquity; I will halt the arrogance of the proud, And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold, A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, And the earth will move out of her place, In the wrath of the LORD of hosts And in the day of His fierce anger.

God is speaking here about the destruction of Babylon but it sounds like world wide destruction. The terminology of a context cannot be expanded beyond the scope of the subject under discussion. The spectrum of language surely cannot go outside the land of Babylon. If you were a Babylonian and Babylon was destroyed, Your world would be destroyed.

Isaiah 13:17 "Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, Who will not regard silver; And as for gold, they will not delight in it.

This is an historical event that took place in 539 BC. When the Medes destroyed Babylon the Babylonian world came to an end. This destruction is said in verse 6 to be from the Almighty, is said to encompass the destruction of the world, and the Medes constitute the means that God uses to accomplish this task. The physical heaven and earth were still in tact, but for Babylon they had collapsed. This is apocalyptic language.
This is the way the Bible discusses the fall of a nation.

In Isaiah 24-27 we see the invasion of Israel by Nebuchadnezzar. He carries them away to captivity. Notice the language that he uses.

Isaiah 24:3-6 The land shall be entirely emptied and utterly plundered, For the LORD has spoken this word. 4 The earth mourns and fades away, The world languishes and fades away; The haughty people of the earth languish. 5 The earth is also defiled under its inhabitants, Because they have transgressed the laws, Changed the ordinance, Broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, And few men are left.

Isaiah 24:19-20 The earth is violently broken, The earth is split open, The earth is shaken exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, And shall totter like a hut; Its transgression shall be heavy upon it, And it will fall, and not rise again.

In these verses, God refers to Israel as the earth. He says the earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly...the earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again" (Verses 1,3,4,19,20) Notice how many times God referred to Israel as the "earth." This is apocalyptic language speaking of the destruction of the people of Israel.

In Isaiah 34 we have a description of the fall of Edom, notice the language that is used.

Isaiah 34:3-5 Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll; All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree. 5 "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment.

This is Biblical language to describe the fall of a nation. It should be clear that it is not to be taken literally.

Consider further:

Nahum 1 The burden against Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elko****e. 2 God is jealous, and the LORD avenges; The LORD avenges and is furious. The LORD will take vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies; 3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet. 4 He rebukes the sea and makes it dry, And dries up all the rivers. Bashan and Carmel wither, And the flower of Lebanon wilts. 5 The mountains quake before Him, The hills melt, And the earth heaves at His presence, Yes, the world and all who dwell in it.

The subject of this judgement is Nineveh, not the physical world. This is the way God describes the fall of a nation. If this language describes the judgement of God on nations, why, when we come to the New Testament, do we make it be the destruction of the universe? It is only because we do not understand how the Bible uses this apocalyptic language.

An NT example for comparison:
2 Peter 3:12, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

Compare to:

Isaiah 34:4 All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll.

Messenger, what hermeneutic could you possibly be using to interprate the "dissolving Heavens" of 2 Peter, in polar opposite fashion to the "dissolving Heavens" of Isaiah 34??

P70

The Messenger · Apr 17, 2002

i believe that just as in the days of noah, the WORLD will come into judgement.

i believe what God himself said that when NEXT he wipes life from the earth it will be with fire. the world as a whole has come under judgement before, we are told plainly it will be again.

i also know from my studies of the Hebrew language and literature what a chiasm is. the great majority of OT writing is in this form, not understanding this leads to great error. whenever judgement is pronounced on a particular nation or people, there is accompanied with it a reminder that the entire world itself will be judged, as occured in Noah's day.

there is no "contradiction"

GW might think this is ridiculous, but what i think is "ridiciulous" is someone that thinks Jesus' death on the cross is a "mere death" has any clue as to what the bible really says...this is something one would think an atheist would say...NOT someone calling themselves a "Christian"

the physical evidence is incontrovertable, preterism is simply wrong. the dead are not yet raised, the rapture never happened, and they say Christ came back in 70ad but suffer the not minor inconvenience of not being able to produce Him

Manifestation1*AD70 · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by Willis Deal
mani,

Would you have me believe that you never use a concordance or dictionary? It is difficult for me to imagine that you can so readily quote scripture without at least an electronic concordance. And you must be aware that they don't espouse doctrine or teach theology (at least the ones I use don't) and are used by christians of almost every denomination and belief. Since strong's is simply the KJV arranged in an alphabetical format. I hope you aren't too shocked when you find out that p70 (and probably several other of the preterists on this board) also use a strong's concordance. Perhaps you should start your own thread showing what a terrible sin it is to use a concordance and lexicon in the study of scripture.

Don't be shocked Willis because I don't us a concordance or dictionary at all. To many of them contain the ideas of men. I do however us a electronis bible. Other then that I have learned to lean on and trust the Holy Spirit.

Manifestation1*AD70 · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by Willis Deal
mani,

Where does it say that Adam died because of his sin?

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Nice try Willis. However there is nothing in these verses that states "physical death entered into the word because of Adam's sin. :scratch:

Would you like to try again.

rollinTHUNDER · Apr 17, 2002

First, I want to welcome all of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to the End Times, Prophecy and Current Events Forum. You should be able to find some subjects that will stir up your interest. But I want to also caution you of the invading of believers that want to argue that the end times don't even exist. We have Preterists that believe that ALL prophecy in the entire Bible has already been fulfilled in and before 70 AD. Be careful and do not be deceived by their lack of faith in our Lord's promised return for us, who are watching and waiting, just as He commanded us to. They believe that He already returned and that there will be no 1000 year reign of Christ on this earth. They believe that we are now living in the promised new earth and new heavens, that is supposed to happen after the 1000 year reign of Christ. I am not totally sure what their faith is in, but it's not what the Bible commands.

Jude 18-19 - They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." (19)These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the spirit.

Matt.24:4 - Jesus answered, "Watch out that no one deceives you."

Having a form of Godliness, yet they deny it's power. I will now let you decide for yourselves. Happy posting my friends!!!

parousia70 · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger

I believe what God himself said that when NEXT he wipes life from the earth it will be with fire. the world as a whole has come under judgement before, we are told plainly it will be again.

Genesis 8:21-22 And the LORD smelled a soothing aroma. Then the LORD said in His heart, "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done. 22 "While the earth remains, Seedtime and harvest, Cold and heat, Winter and summer, And day and night Shall not cease."

Of course,I know you are saying that the Lord destroyed the earth by water one time and He'll destroy it by fire the next time. Is God's promise here to just change his method of destroying everything? Is there comfort in being destroyed by fire instead of water? Or is He promising not to destroy the earth again?

Psalms 148:4-6 Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens! 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD, For He commanded and they were created. 6 He also established them forever and ever; He made a decree which shall not pass away.

What decree did God make concerning the establishment of the heaven and the earth that will never pass away?....
....Genesis 8:21!
God said that he would never again destroy every living thing. God can be trusted, He keeps his word.

Psalms 78:69 And He built His sanctuary like the heights, Like the earth which He has established forever.

If God has established the earth forever, how could it end?

Psalms 119:90 Your faithfulness endures to all generations; You established the earth, and it abides.

Ecclesiastes 1:4 One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever.

Our God is not some sleazy lawyer, crafting loopholes and escape clauses, so He can appear to say one thing and actually mean another, as you would have Him do.

"God smelled a soothing aroma and said in His heart, I will never again curse the ground for mans sake."

Certainly a globe engulfing fire to destroy all humanity would indeed be curse upon the ground that would far surpass the curse of the flood on the ground!

You do have some fascinating beliefs though.
YBIC,
P70

Phoenix · Apr 17, 2002

Rule No. 2 - No "Trolling"

2) You will not post any topic that disrupts the peace and harmony of the atmosphere of this forum or another group. This will include any new user with less than 50 posts starting a "discretionable" topic - i.e. a topic not suitable for children. This will also include posts that put down another Christian group or denomination. Such behaviour is grounds for immediate suspension.

GW · Apr 17, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger
i believe that just as in the days of noah, the WORLD will come into judgement.

The N.T. writers compare the last days judgment (and I don't mean the 2000-years-and-still-going "last days") to the following prior judgments:

(1)The city of Sodom (Lk 17:29)
(2)The wilderness generation with Moses Jude 1:5; 1 Cor 10:1-11; Heb 3:7-4:11
(3)the angels who left not their "first estate" (Jude 1:6)
(4)Noah's generation (Luke 17:26)

Any of these can be generally applied as similar to the last days generation and its judgment. Yet Matthew 24:15-20 and Luke 21:20-22 show us that the endtimes conflagration was easily avoided by simply exiting Jerusalem and the surrounding countryside of Judaea. Hardly a global catastrophic destruction affecting all people. We can assume that those who flee Jerusalem and "Judaea" will be safe. (Judaea isn't a place today, BTW.)

VOW · Apr 17, 2002

To Thunder:

We have Preterists that believe that ALL prophecy in the entire Bible has already been fulfilled in and before 70 AD. Be careful and do not be deceived by their lack of faith in our Lord's promised return for us

Uhhhhhhhhhhh....

The Catholic Church teaches that Revelation was speaking of the events in AD 70....however, the Church also teaches that Jesus will come again in Glory, to judge the Living and the Dead, and His Kingdom will have no End.

Tolerance, Thunder, Tolerance.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

parousia70 · Apr 17, 2002

Newcomers, as one of those accused preterist "invaders" it is my duty to correct brother Thunders mis-representation of our views. Here's a couple right off the Bat.

Thunder said:
I want to also caution you of the invading of believers that want to argue that the end times don't even exist.

P70 replies:
Absolutly, unequivically untrue!
Preterists believe The endtimes are 100% real for they are fortold in the Bible. The "endtimes" are NOT "ourtimes" however.

Thunder said:
Preterists that believe that ALL prophecy in the entire Bible has already been fulfilled in and before 70 AD.

P70 replies:
Absolutly, unequivically untrue!
Bible prophesy continues to be fulfilled every day on into the future.

All eschatology is what preterists believe to be fulfilled, not all prophesy.

Don't let brother Thunder scare you into thinking Preterists aren't fellow Christians, we are. Just as Pre tribbers are fellow Christians to post tribbers, Preterists and futurists both belong eternally to the Body of Christ.

We believe 100% in Christs sacrifice for us on the cross, His 3rd day resurrection from the grave, the 2nd coming, rapture, defeat of sin and the devil, Bodily resurrection of the saints and the new heavens and new earth.
The only way we differ with folks like good brother Thunder is on the timing of these things, thats all.

Not enough to warrant the acusations of "faithless invaders" as Brother Thunder would have it.
Pray for him, and me, as you join this ever challenging, always gratifying forum as we all give Glory to God!!! :bow:

welcome to all!
YBIC,
P70

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