Forgotten truths about America

Voegelin said:

The founders and framers were steeped in the Christian faith. They learned to read from the Bible. Sermons--not broad sheets or newspapers-- were the mass media of the day.

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Most were christian. Several of the most influential, such as Madison and Jefferson, were not.

And ALL of them created a secular government with separation between church and state.

US Constitution, Article VI, Section III
" but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

"The remaining part of the clause declares, that 'no religious test shall ever be required, as a qualification to any office or public trust, under the United States.' This clause is not introduced merely for the purpose of satisfying the scruples of many respectable persons, who feel an invincible repugnance to any test or affirmation. It had a higher object; to cut off for ever every pretence of any alliance between church and state in the national government. The framers of the constitution were fully sensible of the dangers from this source, marked out in history of other ages and countries; and not wholly unknown to our own. They knew that bigotry was unceasingly vigilant in its own stratagems, to secure to itself an exclusive ascendancy over the human mind; and that intolerance was ever ready to arm itself with all the terrors of civil power to exterminate those, who doubted its dogmas, or resisted its infallibility."

Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, by Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, Vol III, (1833) p 705

Does "the Truth" have anything to say about the false information in his OP?

crazyfingers said:

Most were christian. Several of the most influential, such as Madison and Jefferson, were not.

And ALL of them created a secular government with separation between church and state.


....Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, by Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, Vol III, (1833) p 705

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The vast majority of our founders were zealous Christians and the ones that were not loved Christian principles and freedom so much that even that tiny minority agreed with the majority that the principles outlined in Scripture should be woven into our government. And they were!

I love Justice Story:

Joseph Storey

"Christianity becomes not merely an auxiliary, but a guide, to the law of nature; establishing its conclusions, removing its doubts, and evaluating its precepts." Joseph Story, "The Value and Importance of Legal Studies," a lecture delivered August 25, 1829 at his inauguration as Dane Professor of Law in Harvard University, cited in James McClellan, Joseph Story and the American Constitution (Norman, OK: University of Oklahoma, 1971), p. 66. Story served as Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from 1811-1845, and founded the Harvard Law School.

"My own private judgment has long been (and every day's experience more and more confirms me in it) that government cannot long exist without an alliance with Religion to some extent, and that Christianity is indispensable to the true interests and solid foundation of all governments. . . . I know not, indeed, how any deep sense of moral obligation or accountableness can be expected to prevail in the community without a firm foundation of the great Christian truths." Joseph Story, in a letter to Jasper Adams, May 14, 1833, in JSAC, p. 139.

“The real object of the (First) Amendment was not to countenance, much less advance, Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Chrisianity; but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects (denominations).” Original Intent, by David Barton, ch. 2, p. 31, Wallbuilder Press, Aledo, TX,
1996; Commentaries, Story, Vol. III, p. 728, 1871

EvanCalvin said:

The vast majority of our founders were zealous Christians and the ones that were not loved Christian principles and freedom so much that even that tiny minority agreed with the majority that the principles outlined in Scripture should be woven into our government. And they were!

I love Justice Story:

Joseph Storey

"Christianity becomes not merely an auxiliary, but a guide, to the law of nature; establishing its conclusions, removing its doubts, and evaluating its precepts." Joseph Story, "The Value and Importance of Legal Studies," a lecture delivered August 25, 1829 at his inauguration as Dane Professor of Law in Harvard University, cited in James McClellan, Joseph Story and the American Constitution (Norman, OK: University of Oklahoma, 1971), p. 66. Story served as Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court from 1811-1845, and founded the Harvard Law School.

"My own private judgment has long been (and every day's experience more and more confirms me in it) that government cannot long exist without an alliance with Religion to some extent, and that Christianity is indispensable to the true interests and solid foundation of all governments. . . . I know not, indeed, how any deep sense of moral obligation or accountableness can be expected to prevail in the community without a firm foundation of the great Christian truths." Joseph Story, in a letter to Jasper Adams, May 14, 1833, in JSAC, p. 139.

“The real object of the (First) Amendment was not to countenance, much less advance, Mahometanism, or Judaism, or infidelity, by prostrating Chrisianity; but to exclude all rivalry among Christian sects (denominations).” Original Intent, by David Barton, ch. 2, p. 31, Wallbuilder Press, Aledo, TX,
1996; Commentaries, Story, Vol. III, p. 728, 1871

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Doesn't change the fact that the OP had the usual false quotes manufactured by the revisionist christian right.

EvanCalvin said:

The vast majority of our founders were zealous Christians and the ones that were not loved Christian principles and freedom so much that even that tiny minority agreed with the majority that the principles outlined in Scripture should be woven into our government. And they were!

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And yet god is not mentioned in the constitution and the only mentions of religion are prohibition on the government having anything to say about it.

Freedom is NOT a christian principle. And freedom of religion goes against your 10Cs. Christian reconstructionists don't get to claim those concepts as their own.

Why don't you detail those pinciples that are outlined in scriptiure that are woven into government. And while you are at it, why don't you find these founding principles in your scripture.

• Representative democracy (The bible has Kings)
• Freedom of religion (vs the 1st commandment which is not
  freedom of religion)
• Separation of powers (It's all in the king)
• Habeus corpus
• Freedom of speech
• Free press
• The right of the people to peaceably assemble
• Protection from unreasonable search and seizure
• Trial by jury
• Bicameral legislation
• Limited executive power

Go ahead. Find them.

And also note this little bit from your Joseph Story


US Constitution, Article VI, Section III
" but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."
"The remaining part of the clause declares, that 'no religious test shall ever be required, as a qualification to any office or public trust, under the United States.' This clause is not introduced merely for the purpose of satisfying the scruples of many respectable persons, who feel an invincible repugnance to any test or affirmation. It had a higher object; to cut off for ever every pretence of any alliance between church and state in the national government. The framers of the constitution were fully sensible of the dangers from this source, marked out in history of other ages and countries; and not wholly unknown to our own. They knew that bigotry was unceasingly vigilant in its own stratagems, to secure to itself an exclusive ascendancy over the human mind; and that intolerance was ever ready to arm itself with all the terrors of civil power to exterminate those, who doubted its dogmas, or resisted its infallibility."
Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States, by Supreme Court Justice Joseph Story, Vol III, (1833) p 705
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd1.htm

crazyfingers said:

Doesn't change the fact that the OP had the usual false quotes manufactured by the revisionist christian right.

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Prove it!

EvanCalvin said:

Prove it!

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Have you read my first post in this topic?

crazyfingers said:

And yet god is not mentioned in the constitution and the only mentions of religion are prohibition on the government having anything to say about it.

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Uh...wrong again:

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the
Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord" I wonder who that could be?

crazyfingers said:

Why don't you detail those pinciples that are outlined in scriptiure that are woven into government. And while you are at it, why don't you find these founding principles in your scripture.

• Representative democracy (The bible has Kings)
• Freedom of religion (vs the 1st commandment which is not
  freedom of religion)
• Separation of powers (It's all in the king)
• Habeus corpus
• Freedom of speech
• Free press
• The right of the people to peaceably assemble
• Protection from unreasonable search and seizure
• Trial by jury
• Bicameral legislation
• Limited executive power

Go ahead. Find them..

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No problemo' but they are so voluminous they make take several pages...Hang on...........

The law was separate branch of government as “a check” on rulers. This is the origin of separation of powers.

Nation of laws

The unity of the nation

Civil liberty

Political equality

An elective magistracy

The sovereignty of the people

The responsibility of pub­lic officers to their constituents

A prompt, cheap, and impartial administration of justice

Peace and friendship with other nations

The inviolability of private property

The sacredness of the family relation

The sanctity of human life

Universal education

Social union

A well-adjusted balance of pow­ers



These were the vital elements of the constitution of given to Moses.



Nation of laws



DEU 4:5 ¶ "See, I have taught you statutes and judgments just as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should do thus in the land where you are entering to possess it.
DEU 4:6 "So keep and do them, for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes and say, 'Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.'
DEU 4:7 "For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as is the Lord our God whenever we call on Him?
DEU 4:8 "Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?



Unity of the Nation



The nation of Israel is addressed as one man.



There was much danger to commit the custody of the church to one man alone, and therefore God put it in trust "to all the people." The king being in such a high position that he might easily be corrupted. For fear that the church should stumble with him, God intended the people also to be answerable for it. He, or (in His place) the High Priest is the stipulator in this contract, the king and all the people, to wit, Israel, do jointly and voluntarily assume, promise, and oblige themselves for one and the same thing. The High Priest demands that the king and the people promise that the people shall be the people of God, and that God shall always have His temple, His church, among them, where He shall be purely served. The king is answerable, so also are the people (the whole body of the people are representative of the office and place of one man) not individually, but jointly, as the words themselves make clear, and immediately and without interruption, first the king, then the people.



We see here then two undertakers, the king and Israel, who by consequence are responsible one for another and each for the whole. (i.e. if the people with the king are responsible to God then if the king violates…he is a tyrant!). If one of them becomes an idolater or breaks the covenant in any other sort, the one of them must pay the forfeiture and be punished for the other. Now that the covenant of which we at this time treat is of this nature, it appears also by other testimonies of Holy Scripture. Saul being established king of Israel, Samuel, priest and prophet of the Lord, speaks in this manner to the people.



"Both you and your king which is over you serve the Lord your God, but if you persevere in malice" (he taxes them of malice for that they preferred the government of a man before that of God) "you and your king shall perish." (2 Sam. 12:14-15) He adds after the reason, "for it has pleased God to choose you for His people." (2 Sam. 12:22)



Civil liberty



EXO 20:2 ¶ "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.



EXO 13:3 ¶ Moses said to the people, "Remember this day in which you went out from Egypt, from the house of slavery; for by a powerful hand the Lord brought you out from this place. And nothing leavened shall be eaten.



DEU 7:8 but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.



PSA 119:45 And I will walk at liberty, For I seek Your precepts.



ISA 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the Lord has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;



PSA 146:6 Who made heaven and earth, The sea and all that is in them; Who keeps faith forever;

PSA 146:7 Who executes justice for the oppressed; Who gives food to the hungry. The Lord sets the prisoners free.



Political equality



Free access to ownership of property to all citizens. The land is God’s not the states.



NUM 33:54 'You shall inherit the land by lot according to your families; to the larger you shall give more inheritance, and to the smaller you shall give less inheritance. Wherever the lot falls to anyone, that shall be his. You shall inherit according to the tribes of your fathers.



LEV 25:23 ¶ 'The land, moreover, shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine; for you are but aliens and sojourners with Me.



As a result of all having property all had an equal interest in government and ensuring just laws were in place. This also encouraged a strong work ethic.



PRO 24:27 ¶ Prepare your work outside And make it ready for yourself in the field; Afterwards, then, build your house.



PRO 15:19 The way of the lazy is as a hedge of thorns, But the path of the upright is a highway.



God ensured equality by Jubilees and Sabbatical years.



LEV 25:10 'You shall thus consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim a release through the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you, and each of you shall return to his own property, and each of you shall return to his family.

LEV 25:13 ¶ 'On this year of jubilee each of you shall return to his own property.

LEV 25:28 'But if he has not found sufficient means to get it back for himself, then what he has sold shall remain in the hands of its purchaser until the year of jubilee; but at the jubilee it shall revert, that he may return to his property.

LEV 25:40 'He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner; he shall serve with you until the year of jubilee.

LEV 27:24 'In the year of jubilee the field shall return to the one from whom he bought it, to whom the possession of the land belongs.

NUM 36:4 "When the jubilee of the sons of Israel comes, then their inheritance will be added to the inheritance of the tribe to which they belong; so their inheritance will be withdrawn from the inheritance of the tribe of our fathers."



DEU 15:1 "At the end of every seven years you shall grant a remission of debts.

DEU 15:2 "This is the manner of remission: every creditor shall release what he has loaned to his neighbor; he shall not exact it of his neighbor and his brother, because the Lord's remission has been proclaimed.



An elective magistracy



The head of State



The head of state was for life and it was not hereditary. Moses took no step’s to perpetuate his position to an heir or even to a member of his own tribe.



The chief magistrate was elected.



JDG 11:11 Then Jephthah went with the elders of Gilead, and the people made him head and captain over them: and Jephthah uttered all his words before the LORD in Mizpeh.



MIC 5:5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.



Calvin takes the term “shepherds” in the above verse in the sense of civil authorities, and notes:



“For the condition of the people most to be desired is that in which they create their shepherds by general vote (communibus suffragus). For when anyone by force usurps the supreme power, that is tyranny. And where men are born to kingship, this does not seem to be in accordance with liberty. Hence the prophet says: we shall set up princes for ourselves; that is, the Lord will not only give the Church freedom to breathe, but also to institute a definite and well-ordered government, and establish this upon the common sufferage of all.” (Corpus Reformatorum XLIII, 374, as quoted in J.T. McNeill’s introduction to John Calvin, On God and Political Duty, Library of Liberal Arts, volume 23, 1956)



Calvin pusues this theme in his sermon on 1Samuel 8:11-22, where he discusses at length the utter foolishness of the Israelites in rejecting decentralized government by patriarchal elders for a hereditary monarchy: “Well, a formerly free people who sought royal dominance and subjected themselves willingly to it and thus gave up their liberty really deserves no better.” (Trans. Kelly and Raynal, eds., Calvin Studies Colloquium, p.67)



Calvin’s desire for an elective, representative, republican type of government, was certainly influenced by his many years of writing and preaching on the Old Testament. The regular practice (especially in the Northern Kingdom) of popular elections and deposition of kings in view of a higher “covenant” with God defined, bound, and limited civil power and human relationships within the theocratic, Isralite community. Local Old Testament rule by councils of patriarchals elders “sitting in the village gate,” as well as the prototypical council of seventy elders raised up to help Moses in the wilderness, undoubtedly entered Calvin’s thought about proper civil polity.

A Senate is formed from the elders of each tribe



NUM 11:16 And the LORD said unto Moses, Gather unto me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom thou knowest to be the elders of the people, and officers over them; and bring them unto the tabernacle of the congregation, that they may stand there with thee.

NUM 11:24 And Moses went out, and told the people the words of the LORD, and gathered the seventy men of the elders of the people, and set them round about the tabernacle.



Each tribe had it’s head, elders, judges i.e., it’s own government



NUM 1:4 And with you there shall be a man of every tribe; every one head of the house of his fathers.

NUM 1:16 These were the renowned of the congregation, princes of the tribes of their fathers, heads of thousands in Israel.



DEU 1:15 "So I took the heads of your tribes, wise and experienced men, and appointed them heads over you, leaders of thousands and of hundreds, of fifties and of tens, and officers for your tribes.



This is very similar to the original thirteen colonies.



An example of how tribes functioned independently, Judah was the largest but still it was not “a given” that Judah would represent the other tribes;

JDG 1:1 Now after the death of Joshua it came to pass, that the children of Israel asked the LORD, saying, Who shall go up for us against the Canaanites first, to fight against them?

JDG 1:2 And the LORD said, Judah shall go up: behold, I have delivered the land into his hand.





This Senate and the Church go with Moses to obtain God’s laws



EXO 24:1 And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the LORD, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off.

EXO 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:



Representative governmental officials are elected



DEU 1:13 'Choose wise and discerning and experienced men from your tribes, and I will appoint them as your heads.'
DEU 1:15 "So I took the heads of your tribes, wise and experienced men, and appointed them heads over you, leaders of thousands and of hundreds, of fifties and of tens, and officers for your tribes.



Elected officials should be quality individuals.


EXO 18:21 "Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens.

These meet all three of Jefferson’s “test of official capacity”, if Jefferson had been wise enough to add the “fear of God” he would have all four of God’s tests.



DEU 16:18 ¶ "You shall appoint for yourself judges and officers in all your towns which the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment.



Responsibilities of elected officials
DEU 16:19 "You shall not distort justice; you shall not be partial, and you shall not take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and perverts the words of the righteous.
DEU 16:20 "Justice, and only justice, you shall pursue, that you may live and possess the land which the Lord your God is giving you.


1SA 11:15 So all the people went to Gilgal, and there they made Saul king before the Lord in Gilgal. There they also offered sacrifices of peace offerings before the Lord; and there Saul and all the men of Israel rejoiced greatly.



2SA 2:4 Then the men of Judah came and there anointed David king over the house of Judah



1CH 28:1 Now David assembled at Jerusalem all the officials of Israel, the princes of the tribes, and the commanders of the divisions that served the king, and the commanders of thousands, and the commanders of hundreds, and the overseers of all the property and livestock belonging to the king and his sons, with the officials and the mighty men, even all the valiant men.

1CH 29:22 So they ate and drank that day before the Lord with great gladness. ¶ And they made Solomon the son of David king a second time, and they anointed him as ruler for the Lord and Zadok as priest.



2SA 16:16 Now it came about when Hushai the Archite, David's friend, came to Absalom, that Hushai said to Absalom, "Long live the king! Long live the king!"

2SA 16:17 Absalom said to Hushai, "Is this your loyalty to your friend? Why did you not go with your friend?"

2SA 16:18 Then Hushai said to Absalom, "No! For whom the Lord, this people, and all the men of Israel have chosen, his I will be, and with him I will remain.



JDG 11:11 Then Jephthah went with the elders of Gilead, and the people made him head and chief over them; and Jephthah spoke all his words before the Lord at Mizpah.



The sovereignty of the people

EXO 19:7 ¶ So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the Lord had commanded him.

EXO 19:8 All the people answered together and said, "All that the Lord has spoken we will do!" And Moses brought back the words of the people to the Lord.

EXO 24:3 ¶ Then Moses came and recounted to the people all the words of the Lord and all the ordinances; and all the people answered with one voice and said, "All the words which the Lord has spoken we will do!"

EXO 24:7 Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said, "All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!"

DEU 5:27 'Go near and hear all that the Lord our God says; then speak to us all that the Lord our God speaks to you, and we will hear and do it.'

DEU 26:17 "You have today declared the Lord to be your God, and that you would walk in His ways and keep His statutes, His commandments and His ordinances, and listen to His voice.



The responsibility of pub­lic officers to their constituents



1SA 12:1 Then Samuel said to all Israel, "Behold, I have listened to your voice in all that you said to me and I have appointed a king over you.

1SA 12:2 "Now, here is the king walking before you, but I am old and gray, and behold my sons are with you. And I have walked before you from my youth even to this day.

1SA 12:3 "Here I am; bear witness against me before the Lord and His anointed. Whose ox have I taken, or whose donkey have I taken, or whom have I defrauded? Whom have I oppressed, or from whose hand have I taken a bribe to blind my eyes with it? I will restore it to you."

1SA 12:4 They said, "You have not defrauded us or oppressed us or taken anything from any man's hand."

1SA 12:5 He said to them, "The Lord is witness against you, and His anointed is witness this day that you have found nothing in my hand." And they said, "He is witness."



1KI 12:4 "Your father made our yoke hard; now therefore lighten the hard service of your father and his heavy yoke which he put on us, and we will serve you."



DEU 17:19 "It shall be with him and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, by carefully observing all the words of this law and these statutes,

DEU 17:20 that his heart may not be lifted up above his countrymen and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, to the right or the left, so that he and his sons may continue long in his kingdom in the midst of Israel.



Even though Moses was obviously against a monarchy for of government, God had revealed that the people would reject a republican form of government in favor of a monarchy. As a result, the above verses clearly demonstrate that Moses established a “constitutional monarchy.”

Strict accountability to the people



1KI 12:1 Then Rehoboam went to Shechem, for all Israel had come to Shechem to make him king.

1KI 12:2 Now when Jeroboam the son of Nebat heard of it, he was living in Egypt (for he was yet in Egypt, where he had fled from the presence of King Solomon).

1KI 12:3 Then they sent and called him, and Jeroboam and all the assembly of Israel came and spoke to Rehoboam, saying,

1KI 12:4 "Your father made our yoke hard; now therefore lighten the hard service of your father and his heavy yoke which he put on us, and we will serve you."

1KI 12:5 Then he said to them, "Depart for three days, then return to me." So the people departed.

1KI 12:6 ¶ King Rehoboam consulted with the elders who had served his father Solomon while he was still alive, saying, "How do you counsel me to answer this people?"

1KI 12:7 Then they spoke to him, saying, "If you will be a servant to this people today, and will serve them and grant them their petition, and speak good words to them, then they will be your servants forever."

1KI 12:8 But he forsook the counsel of the elders which they had given him, and consulted with the young men who grew up with him and served him.

1KI 12:9 So he said to them, "What counsel do you give that we may answer this people who have spoken to me, saying, 'Lighten the yoke which your father put on us'?"

1KI 12:10 The young men who grew up with him spoke to him, saying, "Thus you shall say to this people who spoke to you, saying, 'Your father made our yoke heavy, now you make it lighter for us!' But you shall speak to them, 'My little finger is thicker than my father's loins!

1KI 12:11 'Whereas my father loaded you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke; my father disciplined you with whips, but I will discipline you with scorpions.'"

1KI 12:12 ¶ Then Jeroboam and all the people came to Rehoboam on the third day as the king had directed, saying, "Return to me on the third day."

1KI 12:13 The king answered the people harshly, for he forsook the advice of the elders which they had given him,

1KI 12:14 and he spoke to them according to the advice of the young men, saying, "My father made your yoke heavy, but I will add to your yoke; my father disciplined you with whips, but I will discipline you with scorpions."

1KI 12:15 So the king did not listen to the people; for it was a turn of events from the Lord, that He might establish His word, which the Lord spoke through Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat.

1KI 12:16 ¶ When all Israel saw that the king did not listen to them, the people answered the king, saying, "What portion do we have in David? We have no inheritance in the son of Jesse; To your tents, O Israel! Now look after your own house, David!" So Israel departed to their tents.

1KI 12:17 But as for the sons of Israel who lived in the cities of Judah, Rehoboam reigned over them.

1KI 12:18 Then King Rehoboam sent Adoram, who was over the forced labor, and all Israel stoned him to death. And King Rehoboam made haste to mount his chariot to flee to Jerusalem.

1KI 12:19 So Israel has been in rebellion against the house of David to this day.

1KI 12:20 ¶ It came about when all Israel heard that Jeroboam had returned, that they sent and called him to the assembly and made him king over all Israel. None but the tribe of Judah followed the house of David.



“But in that obedience which we hold to be due to the commands of rulers, we must always make the exception, nay, must be particularly careful that it is not incompatible with obedience to Him to whose will the wishes of all kings should be subject, to whose decrees their commands must yield, to whose majesty their sceptres must bow. And, indeed, how preposterous were it, in pleasing men, to incur the offence of Him for whose sake you obey men! The Lord, therefore, is King of kings. When he opens his sacred mouth, he alone is to be heard, instead of all and above all. We are subject to the men who rule over us, but subject only in the Lord. If they command anything against Him let us not pay the least regard to it, nor be moved by all the dignity which they possess as magistrates—a dignity to which no injury is done when it is subordinated to the special and truly supreme power of God. On this ground Daniel denies that he had sinned in any respect against the king when he refused to obey his impious decree (Dan. 6:22), because the king had exceeded his limits, and not only been injurious to men, but, by raising his horn against God, had virtually abrogated his own power. On the other hand, the Israelites are condemned for having too readily obeyed the impious edict of the king. For, when Jeroboam made the golden calf, they forsook the temple of God, and, in submissiveness to him, revolted to new superstitions (1 Kings 12:28). With the same facility posterity had bowed before the decrees of their kings. For this they are severely upbraided by the Prophet (Hosea 5:11). So far is the praise of modesty from being due to that pretence by which flattering courtiers cloak themselves, and deceive the simple, when they deny the lawfulness of declining anything imposed by their kings, as if the Lord had resigned his own rights to mortals by appointing them to rule over their fellows, or as if earthly power were diminished when it is subjected to its author, before whom even the principalities of heaven tremble as suppliants. I know the imminent peril to which subjects expose themselves by this firmness, kings being most indignant when they are contemned. As Solomon says, “The wrath of a king is as messengers of death” (Prov. 16:14). But since Peter, one of heaven’s heralds, has published the edict, “We ought to obey God rather than men” (Acts 5:29), let us console ourselves with the thought, that we are rendering the obedience which the Lord requires, when we endure anything rather than turn aside from piety. And that our courage may not fail, Paul stimulates us by the additional consideration (1 Cor. 7:23), that we were redeemed by Christ at the great price which our redemption cost him, in order that we might not yield a slavish obedience to the depraved wishes of men, far less do homage to their impiety.” (Calvin’s Institutes 4:20.32)



A prompt, cheap, and impartial administration of justice



DEU 1:17 'You shall not show partiality in judgment; you shall hear the small and the great alike. You shall not fear man, for the judgment is God's. The case that is too hard for you, you shall bring to me, and I will hear it.'



Prompt

DEU 16:18 ¶ "You shall appoint for yourself judges and officers in all your towns which the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment.

EXO 18:21 "Furthermore, you shall select out of all the people able men who fear God, men of truth, those who hate dishonest gain; and you shall place these over them as leaders of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties and of tens.



2CH 19:5 He appointed judges in the land in all the fortified cities of Judah, city by city.

2CH 19:6 He said to the judges, "Consider what you are doing, for you do not judge for man but for the Lord who is with you when you render judgment.

2CH 19:7 "Now then let the fear of the Lord be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the Lord our God will have no part in unrighteousness or partiality or the taking of a bribe."

2CH 19:9 Then he charged them saying, "Thus you shall do in the fear of the Lord, faithfully and wholeheartedly.



Peace and friendship with other nations



There was no standing army in Israel. Citizens who owned property were expected to fight when their country need them.



JDG 5:23 'Curse Meroz,' said the angel of the Lord, 'Utterly curse its inhabitants; Because they did not come to the help of the Lord, To the help of the Lord against the warriors.'



Use of calvery was prohibited so nation would not become warlike and riders would not become a rich aristocracy.



DEU 17:16 "Moreover, he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor shall he cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, since the Lord has said to you, 'You shall never again return that way.'



ISA 31:1 Woe to those who go down to Egypt for help And rely on horses, And trust in chariots because they are many And in horsemen because they are very strong, But they do not look to the Holy One of Israel, nor seek the Lord!



JOS 11:6 ¶ Then the Lord said to Joshua, "Do not be afraid because of them, for tomorrow at this time I will deliver all of them slain before Israel; you shall hamstring their horses and burn their chariots with fire." (i.e., not to be used by Israel)



2SA 8:4 David captured from him 1,700 horsemen and 20,000 foot soldiers; and David hamstrung the chariot horses, but reserved enough of them for 100 chariots.



Israel was to give peace terms first



DEU 20:10 ¶ "When you approach a city to fight against it, you shall offer it terms of peace.

Good example of Israel seeking peace first



JDG 11:12 ¶ Now Jephthah sent messengers to the king of the sons of Ammon, saying, "What is between you and me, that you have come to me to fight against my land?"

JDG 11:13 The king of the sons of Ammon said to the messengers of Jephthah, "Because Israel took away my land when they came up from Egypt, from the Arnon as far as the Jabbok and the Jordan; therefore, return them peaceably now."

JDG 11:14 But Jephthah sent messengers again to the king of the sons of Ammon,

JDG 11:15 and they said to him, "Thus says Jephthah, 'Israel did not take away the land of Moab nor the land of the sons of Ammon.

JDG 11:16 'For when they came up from Egypt, and Israel went through the wilderness to the Red Sea and came to Kadesh,

JDG 11:17 then Israel sent messengers to the king of Edom, saying, "Please let us pass through your land," but the king of Edom would not listen. And they also sent to the king of Moab, but he would not consent. So Israel remained at Kadesh.

JDG 11:18 'Then they went through the wilderness and around the land of Edom and the land of Moab, and came to the east side of the land of Moab, and they camped beyond the Arnon; but they did not enter the territory of Moab, for the Arnon was the border of Moab.

JDG 11:19 'And Israel sent messengers to Sihon king of the Amorites, the king of Heshbon, and Israel said to him, "Please let us pass through your land to our place."

JDG 11:20 'But Sihon did not trust Israel to pass through his territory; so Sihon gathered all his people and camped in Jahaz and fought with Israel.

JDG 11:21 'The Lord, the God of Israel, gave Sihon and all his people into the hand of Israel, and they defeated them; so Israel possessed all the land of the Amorites, the inhabitants of that country.

JDG 11:22 'So they possessed all the territory of the Amorites, from the Arnon as far as the Jabbok, and from the wilderness as far as the Jordan.

JDG 11:23 'Since now the Lord, the God of Israel, drove out the Amorites from before His people Israel, are you then to possess it?

JDG 11:24 'Do you not possess what Chemosh your god gives you to possess? So whatever the Lord our God has driven out before us, we will possess it.

JDG 11:25 'Now are you any better than Balak the son of Zippor, king of Moab? Did he ever strive with Israel, or did he ever fight against them?

JDG 11:26 'While Israel lived in Heshbon and its villages, and in Aroer and its villages, and in all the cities that are on the banks of the Arnon, three hundred years, why did you not recover them within that time?

JDG 11:27 'I therefore have not sinned against you, but you are doing me wrong by making war against me; may the Lord, the Judge, judge today between the sons of Israel and the sons of Ammon.'"



Males had to go to capital three times a year, disincentive to forming a military



EXO 23:17 "Three times a year all your males shall appear before the Lord God.

EXO 34:23 "Three times a year all your males are to appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel.

DEU 16:16 ¶ "Three times in a year all your males shall appear before the Lord your God in the place which He chooses, at the Feast of Unleavened Bread and at the Feast of Weeks and at the Feast of Booths, and they shall not appear before the Lord empty-handed.



David was severely rebuked for numbering the people to form a standing army and military government



1CH 21:2 So David said to Joab and to the princes of the people, "Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan, and bring me word that I may know their number."

1CH 21:5 Joab gave the number of the census of all the people to David. And all Israel were 1,100,000 men who drew the sword; and Judah was 470,000 men who drew the sword.

1CH 21:7 ¶ God was displeased with this thing, so He struck Israel.

1CH 21:8 David said to God, "I have sinned greatly, in that I have done this thing. But now, please take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have done very foolishly."


The inviolability of private property



EXO 20:15 ¶ "You shall not steal.

EXO 20:17 ¶ "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."



The sacredness of the family relation



EXO 20:12 ¶ "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

EXO 20:14 ¶ "You shall not commit adultery.

EXO 20:17 ¶ "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor."



The sanctity of human life



EXO 20:13 ¶ "You shall not murder.



Universal education



DEU 6:7 You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up.

DEU 6:8 "You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as frontals on your forehead.

DEU 6:9 "You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

DEU 4:9 ¶ "Only give heed to yourself and keep your soul diligently, so that you do not forget the things which your eyes have seen and they do not depart from your heart all the days of your life; but make them known to your sons and your grandsons.

DEU 11:19 "You shall teach them to your sons, talking of them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road and when you lie down and when you rise up.



EXO 13:14 "And it shall be when your son asks you in time to come, saying, 'What is this?' then you shall say to him, 'With a powerful hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt, from the house of slavery.

EXO 13:15 'It came about, when Pharaoh was stubborn about letting us go, that the Lord killed every firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man and the firstborn of beast. Therefore, I sacrifice to the Lord the males, the first offspring of every womb, but every firstborn of my sons I redeem.'

Higher Education Institutions



1SA 19:18 ¶ Now David fled and escaped and came to Samuel at Ramah, and told him all that Saul had done to him. And he and Samuel went and stayed in Naioth.

1SA 19:20 Then Saul sent messengers to take David, but when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing and presiding over them, the Spirit of God came upon the messengers of Saul; and they also prophesied.

1SA 19:21 When it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they also prophesied. So Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they also prophesied.

1SA 19:22 Then he himself went to Ramah and came as far as the large well that is in Secu; and he asked and said, "Where are Samuel and David?" And someone said, "Behold, they are at Naioth in Ramah."

1SA 19:23 He proceeded there to Naioth in Ramah; and the Spirit of God came upon him also, so that he went along prophesying continually until he came to Naioth in Ramah.

1SA 19:24 He also stripped off his clothes, and he too prophesied before Samuel and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Therefore they say, "Is Saul also among the prophets?"



2KI 2:3 Then the sons of the prophets who were at Bethel came out to Elisha and said to him, "Do you know that the Lord will take away your master from over you today?" And he said, "Yes, I know; be still."

2KI 2:4 ¶ Elijah said to him, "Elisha, please stay here, for the Lord has sent me to Jericho." But he said, "As the Lord lives, and as you yourself live, I will not leave you." So they came to Jericho.

2KI 2:5 The sons of the prophets who were at Jericho approached Elisha and said to him, "Do you know that the Lord will take away your master from over you today?" And he answered, "Yes, I know; be still."



Social union



1CH 23:31 and to offer all burnt offerings to the Lord, on the sabbaths, the new moons and the fixed festivals in the number set by the ordinance concerning them, continually before the Lord.

2CH 31:3 He also appointed the king's portion of his goods for the burnt offerings, namely, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths and for the new moons and for the fixed festivals, as it is written in the law of the Lord.

EZR 3:5 and afterward there was a continual burnt offering, also for the new moons and for all the fixed festivals of the Lord that were consecrated, and from everyone who offered a freewill offering to the Lord.



A well adjusted balance of pow­ers



Levites (church) separated from all other tribes and government.



Moses is in charge of laws and gov't as a sorta 1st president

EXO 18:19 "Now listen to me: I will give you counsel, and God be with you. You be the people's representative before God, and you bring the disputes to God,
EXO 18:20 then teach them the statutes and the laws, and make known to them the way in which they are to walk and the work they are to do.

Aaron was in church of the church and Levites, there was strict instruction for the Levites to be separate from Moses and gov't

NUM 3:6 "Bring the tribe of Levi near and set them before Aaron the priest, that they may serve him.
NUM 3:7 "They shall perform the duties for him and for the whole congregation before the tent of meeting, to do the service of the tabernacle.



Church and state functions were to be separate



2CH 26:16 ¶ But when he became strong, his heart was so proud that he acted corruptly, and he was unfaithful to the Lord his God, for he entered the temple of the Lord to burn incense on the altar of incense.

2CH 26:17 Then Azariah the priest entered after him and with him eighty priests of the Lord, valiant men.

2CH 26:18 They opposed Uzziah the king and said to him, "It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have been unfaithful and will have no honor from the Lord God."

2CH 26:19 But Uzziah, with a censer in his hand for burning incense, was enraged; and while he was enraged with the priests, the leprosy broke out on his forehead before the priests in the house of the Lord, beside the altar of incense.

2CH 26:20 Azariah the chief priest and all the priests looked at him, and behold, he was leprous on his forehead; and they hurried him out of there, and he himself also hastened to get out because the Lord had smitten him.

2CH 26:21 King Uzziah was a leper to the day of his death; and he lived in a separate house, being a leper, for he was cut off from the house of the Lord. And Jotham his son was over the king's house judging the people of the land.



Three branches government



ISA 33:22 For the Lord is our judge, The Lord is our lawgiver, The Lord is our king; He will save us –



Constitutionalism



“For as Scripture teaches us, a well-constituted republic is a singular benefit of God, while on the other hand, a disordered state with wicked rulers and perverters of law is a sign of divine wrath against us…Thus even though the world today is inundated with a flood of impiety and iniquity, let us not wonder if we see so much plundering and robbery of people everywhere, and kings and princes thinking they deserve everything they want, simply because no one opposes them.” (Calvin’s Sermon XXIX on 1 Samuel 8:11-22.)



1SA 10:25 ¶ Then Samuel told the people the ordinances of the kingdom, and wrote them in the book and placed it before the Lord. And Samuel sent all the people away, each one to his house.



Calvin taught that this scripture revealed an excellent example of a Constitutional form of government. This form of government was revealed from heaven as a government of laws and not men. This was a model from which Calvin, the Reformers, the Puritans, the Separatists and our Founding Fathers used to model church and civil governments, in that exact historical and political order. Other related Constitutional scriptural model verses included:



DEU 17:18 ¶ "Now it shall come about when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself a copy of this law on a scroll in the presence of the Levitical priests.

DEU 17:19 "It shall be with him and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, by carefully observing all the words of this law and these statutes,

DEU 17:20 that his heart may not be lifted up above his countrymen and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, to the right or the left, so that he and his sons may continue long in his kingdom in the midst of Israel.

DEU 31:26 "Take this book of the law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may remain there as a witness against you.



JOS 1:1 Now it came about after the death of Moses the servant of the Lord, that the Lord spoke to Joshua the son of Nun, Moses' servant, saying,

JOS 1:7 "Only be strong and very courageous; be careful to do according to all the law which Moses My servant commanded you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, so that you may have success wherever you go.

JOS 1:8 "This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success.



These constitutional evidences were directly opposed to monarchy as Calvin explains in his sermons on II Samuel. In Sermon XIV, he states, concerning David’s many wives: “Beyond the fact that he committed adultery for its own sake, was the customary attitude of princes that they ought to be privileged to do wrong above everyone else.” Sermon XVIII says, “Pride blinds [princes] so totally that they think they ought to be put in the rank of God.”

Whewwwww! How 'bout tat?

crazyfingers said:

Have you read my first post in this topic?

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Didn't you see mine? It seems you were astonished....

crazyfingers said:

Since I'd say it's a near certainly that you didn't type all that yourself, why do you not site your source?

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I did, didn't you see my site's of the sources?

crazyfingers said:

Of course I saw them. If you claim to have actually typed all that then I'll accept it. However I'd also say that I don't think that it proves much.

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Disprove those rightwing Christian truth revealing historical statements!

EvanCalvin said:

Didn't you see mine?

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Then you'll see that the OP to this topic by "The Truth" had false quotes. They have been sho2wn to be false. Even Barton now admits it.

It seems you were astonished....

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Astonished that you write so much and say so little?

I did, didn't you see my site's of the sources? [/font]

Disprove those rightwing Christian truth revealing historical statements!

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I have no idea what you are talking about. I am talking about the false quotes in the opening post of this topic.

Those quotes have been shown to be fabrications. I linked to the evidence.

EvanCalvin said:

Uh...wrong again:

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the
Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord" I wonder who that could be?

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You really need a better argument than that. BWAHAHAHAHA. By that same argument you'd say that using the calendar and naming the months is a tribute to the gods. You do know that January, Febuary, March, April, etc.. are mostly tributes to ancent gods? Same argument dude.

No problemo' but they are so voluminous they make take several pages...Hang on...........

The law was separate branch of government as “a check” on rulers. This is the origin of separation of powers.

Nation of laws

The unity of the nation

Civil liberty

Political equality

An elective magistracy

The sovereignty of the people

The responsibility of pub­lic officers to their constituents

A prompt, cheap, and impartial administration of justice

Peace and friendship with other nations

The inviolability of private property

The sacredness of the family relation

The sanctity of human life

Universal education

Social union

A well-adjusted balance of pow­ers



These were the vital elements of the constitution of given to Moses.



Nation of laws



DEU 4:5 ¶ "See, I have taught you statutes and judgments just as the Lord my God commanded me, that you should do thus in the land where you are entering to possess it.
DEU 4:6 "So keep and do them, for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes and say, 'Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.'
DEU 4:7 "For what great nation is there that has a god so near to it as is the Lord our God whenever we call on Him?
DEU 4:8 "Or what great nation is there that has statutes and judgments as righteous as this whole law which I am setting before you today?



Unity of the Nation



The nation of Israel is addressed as one man.



There was much danger to commit the custody of the church to one man alone, and therefore God put it in trust "to all the people." The king being in such a high position that he might easily be corrupted. For fear that the church should stumble with him, God intended the people also to be answerable for it. He, or (in His place) the High Priest is the stipulator in this contract, the king and all the people, to wit, Israel, do jointly and voluntarily assume, promise, and oblige themselves for one and the same thing. The High Priest demands that the king and the people promise that the people shall be the people of God, and that God shall always have His temple, His church, among them, where He shall be purely served. The king is answerable, so also are the people (the whole body of the people are representative of the office and place of one man) not individually, but jointly, as the words themselves make clear, and immediately and without interruption, first the king, then the people.



We see here then two undertakers, the king and Israel, who by consequence are responsible one for another and each for the whole. (i.e. if the people with the king are responsible to God then if the king violates…he is a tyrant!). If one of them becomes an idolater or breaks the covenant in any other sort, the one of them must pay the forfeiture and be punished for the other. Now that the covenant of which we at this time treat is of this nature, it appears also by other testimonies of Holy Scripture. Saul being established king of Israel, Samuel, priest and prophet of the Lord, speaks in this manner to the people.



"Both you and your king which is over you serve the Lord your God, but if you persevere in malice" (he taxes them of malice for that they preferred the government of a man before that of God) "you and your king shall perish." (2 Sam. 12:14-15) He adds after the reason, "for it has pleased God to choose you for His people." (2 Sam. 12:22)



Civil liberty



EXO 20:2 ¶ "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.



EXO 13:3 ¶ Moses said to the people, "Remember this day in which you went out from Egypt, from the house of slavery; for by a powerful hand the Lord brought you out from this place. And nothing leavened shall be eaten.



DEU 7:8 but because the Lord loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the Lord brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.



PSA 119:45 And I will walk at liberty, For I seek Your precepts.



ISA 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, Because the Lord has anointed me To bring good news to the afflicted; He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to captives And freedom to prisoners;



PSA 146:6 Who made heaven and earth, The sea and all that is in them; Who keeps faith forever;

PSA 146:7 Who executes justice for the oppressed; Who gives food to the hungry. The Lord sets the prisoners free.



Political equality



Free access to ownership of property to all citizens. The land is God’s not the states.



NUM 33:54 'You shall inherit the land by lot according to your families; to the larger you shall give more inheritance, and to the smaller you shall give less inheritance. Wherever the lot falls to anyone, that shall be his. You shall inherit according to the tribes of your fathers.



LEV 25:23 ¶ 'The land, moreover, shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine; for you are but aliens and sojourners with Me.



As a result of all having property all had an equal interest in government and ensuring just laws were in place. This also encouraged a strong work ethic.



PRO 24:27 ¶ Prepare your work outside And make it ready for yourself in the field; Afterwards, then, build your house.



PRO 15:19 The way of the lazy is as a hedge of thorns, But the path of the upright is a highway.



God ensured equality by Jubilees and Sabbatical years.



LEV 25:10 'You shall thus consecrate the fiftieth year and proclaim a release through the land to all its inhabitants. It shall be a jubilee for you, and each of you shall return to his own property, and each of you shall return to his family.

LEV 25:13 ¶ 'On this year of jubilee each of you shall return to his own property.

LEV 25:28 'But if he has not found sufficient means to get it back for himself, then what he has sold shall remain in the hands of its purchaser until the year of jubilee; but at the jubilee it shall revert, that he may return to his property.

LEV 25:40 'He shall be with you as a hired man, as if he were a sojourner; he shall serve with you until the year of jubilee.

LEV 27:24 'In the year of jubilee the field shall return to the one from whom he bought it, to whom the possession of the land belongs.

NUM 36:4 "When the jubilee of the sons of Israel comes, then their inheritance will be added to the inheritance of the tribe to which they belong; so their inheritance will be withdrawn from the inheritance of the tribe of our fathers."



DEU 15:1 "At the end of every seven years you shall grant a remission of debts.

DEU 15:2 "This is the manner of remission: every creditor shall release what he has loaned to his neighbor; he shall not exact it of his neighbor and his brother, because the Lord's remission has been proclaimed.



An elective magistracy



The head of State



The head of state was for life and it was not hereditary. Moses took no step’s to perpetuate his position to an heir or even to a member of his own tribe.



The chief magistrate was elected.



JDG 11:11 Then Jephthah went with the elders of Gilead, and the people made him head and captain over them: and Jephthah uttered all his words before the LORD in Mizpeh.



MIC 5:5 And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men.



Calvin takes the term “shepherds” in the above verse in the sense of civil authorities, and notes:



“For the condition of the people most to be desired is that in which they create their shepherds by general vote (communibus suffragus). For when anyone by force usurps the supreme power, that is tyranny. And where men are born to kingship, this does not seem to be in accordance with liberty. Hence the prophet says: we shall set up princes for ourselves; that is, the Lord will not only give the Church freedom to breathe, but also to institute a definite and well-ordered government, and establish this upon the common sufferage of all.” (Corpus Reformatorum XLIII, 374, as quoted in J.T. McNeill’s introduction to John Calvin, On God and Political Duty, Library of Liberal Arts, volume 23, 1956)



Calvin pusues this theme in his sermon on 1Samuel 8:11-22, where he discusses at length the utter foolishness of the Israelites in rejecting decentralized government by patriarchal elders for a hereditary monarchy: “Well, a formerly free people who sought royal dominance and subjected themselves willingly to it and thus gave up their liberty really deserves no better.” (Trans. Kelly and Raynal, eds., Calvin Studies Colloquium, p.67)



Calvin’s desire for an elective, representative, republican type of government, was certainly influenced by his many years of writing and preaching on the Old Testament. The regular practice (especially in the Northern Kingdom) of popular elections and deposition of kings in view of a higher “covenant” with God defined, bound, and limited civil power and human relationships within the theocratic, Isralite community. Local Old Testament rule by councils of patriarchals elders “sitting in the village gate,” as well as the prototypical council of seventy elders raised up to help Moses in the wilderness, undoubtedly entered Calvin’s thought about proper civil polity.

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I see that you subscribe to the "Drown them in BS" theory of debate.

The funny thing is, you can also find the opposite in the Bible. Explain how gious liberty as found in our constitution is contradicted by the 1st commandment.

Don't you get it? The Bible is an inconsistent repository for about any argument you want to make and you can find quotes that say the exact opposite.

Read this if you want to have a more accurate understanding of what the founders used to draw up the constitution. Here

Crazyfingers, your diligence and devotion to the truth amaze me. I am humbled, seeing this, at how much further I have to go.

Keep it up. You are fighting the good fight; you are sticking up for an uncomfortable truth over a comforting lie.

I would, however, like to raise one small concern; I believe that Christianity very strongly teaches freedom of religion. Yes, the first commandment commands us, the believers, to have no other gods before our own. However, consider the standard by which Christian interaction with others is judged:

1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

This testimony is totally and fundamentally incompatible with attempts to push Christianity on people by force of law. Indeed, such attempts can only harm the faith, replacing genuine faith and discovery of God with a mindless state-provided routine.

seebs said:

Crazyfingers, your diligence and devotion to the truth amaze me. I am humbled, seeing this, at how much further I have to go.

Keep it up. You are fighting the good fight; you are sticking up for an uncomfortable truth over a comforting lie.

I would, however, like to raise one small concern; I believe that Christianity very strongly teaches freedom of religion. Yes, the first commandment commands us, the believers, to have no other gods before our own. However, consider the standard by which Christian interaction with others is judged:

1 Peter 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

This testimony is totally and fundamentally incompatible with attempts to push Christianity on people by force of law. Indeed, such attempts can only harm the faith, replacing genuine faith and discovery of God with a mindless state-provided routine.

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Seebs, I believe that Christianity itself is anti-freedcom of religion. It says, believe in Jesus as savior/god, despitre the lack of evidence, or go to hell.

crazyfingers said:

Seebs, I believe that Christianity itself is anti-freedcom of religion. It says, believe in Jesus as savior/god, despitre the lack of evidence, or go to hell.

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Well, first off, I am not entirely convinced that that interpretation is the true one.

Even granting that for the sake of argument, that isn't a basis for telling anyone else to believe. My belief that person X will go to Hell (if, indeed, I could say such a thing with certainty) is no justification for any legal force. Indeed, it requires that I ensure no legal force interferes with his possible acceptance of my position!

To earnestly seek the salvation of others requires that they be totally free to accept or reject your claims; if they are coerced, they cannot really accept the position on its own merits, and this is a great barrier to overcome.

crazyfingers said:

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You really need a better argument than that. BWAHAHAHAHA. Don't you get it? The Bible is an inconsistent repository for about any argument you want to make and you can find quotes that say the exact opposite.

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That's it?

That's your response to 100's of specific bible verse references used by our founders to model the Hebrew Republic or the form of government handed down by God to His people?

How enlightening?

EvanCalvin said:

That's it?

That's your response to 100's of specific bible verse references used by our founders to model the Hebrew Republic or the form of government handed down by God to His people?

How enlightening?

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That's it from you? Now I'm laughing.

All you've done is plagiarized a webpage from someone far smarter than yourself to post a horde of quotes. You have not proven that the Founders used them in the least.