Futurists vs Preterists

The Messenger · Apr 16, 2002

Originally posted by davo
It seems pretty clear this speaks to the "present life" of the saints -NOT future resurrection:

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, [present tense] He who raised Christ from the dead will also [speaks of assurance] give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

LOL how does that change anything?. "will" would be future tense and the "assurance" givin is the life of the mortal body, the word "also" wouild link this raising to life to Christs own resurection. which we know to be physical.

in other words, it still means what it simply says. this still has the preterist contradicting themselves because GW is saying the mortal body dies and ANOTHER body is givin in it's place, in direct oposition to the bible saying life will be givin to the MORTAL body, that will be raised from the dead and made glorified.

Originally posted by davo
1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then [the Greek actually means "afterwards" or, "later on"] we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is EXACTLY the same word as found in the following:

1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Click to expand...

it never fails preterists give one(or a partial) definition from the Strong's and say "see it means this"

well i have a Strong's too and "then" as used in 1 thess 4:17 is the Greek word "Epeita"(strong's #1899)

here is what the Strong's actually says...and i quote:

thereupon , thereafter, then , afterwards

it does NOT say "later on" as some unspecified time AFTER his coming,the meeting him in the air" is significant of DURING his coming and the wording of 1 cor 15:23 confirms this

1 Cor 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits ; THENthey that are Christ's AT his coming.

The Messenger · Apr 16, 2002

quote by davo
"Well if you believe these angels literally -it was the "men of Galilee" who were to see His return -and Jesus did say some would not die before they saw such. And don't forget, the verse before clearly states that "the cloud hid Him from their sight." Besides all that, Jesus "coming on the clouds" is covenant language describing Yahweh's coming in judgment, so often revealed in the Old Testament."

actually, it simply said he would return the "same way he left ". this was a physical ascension after the physical resurrection . trying to insert meaning from other scripture not pertinent is foolishness. this is but one of many reasons preterism is to me just another "ism" it is what happens when people intellectualize themselves into spiritual imbecility, and so pervert the truth they call the cross" a "mere death" not even knowing what it is for.

anyway, i have alot of work to do so i wont be posting for awhile, have fun with your false doctrine and bible editing...

davo · Apr 16, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger
actually, it simply said he would return the "same way he left ". this was a physical ascension after the physical resurrection . trying to insert meaning from other scripture not pertinent is foolishness. this is but one of many reasons preterism is to me just another "ism" it is what happens when people intellectualize themselves into spiritual imbecility, and so pervert the truth they call the cross" a "mere death" not even knowing what it is for.

LOL It's interesting you should mention "foolishness" -that you assert as "not pertinent" the preceding verse as being somehow not applicable is unbelievable, yet based on your posts, understandable.

davo

The Messenger · Apr 16, 2002

quote by davo
LOL It's interesting you should mention "foolishness" -that you assert as "not pertinent" the preceding verse as being somehow not applicable is unbelievable, yet based on your posts, understandable."

what i was saying was "not pertinent" was "cloud comings" because Acts 1:11 says and i quote:

and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? THIS Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

it does not say the apostles will be there that is another preterist rewrite...it says what it simply says he will come in the same way they saw him go.

he physically went up, they watched this happen. and as i pointed out before, Jesus "spiritually" returned decades before 70ad at the day of pentecost, and did not leave. it is well documented in the book of acts.

The Messenger · Apr 16, 2002

quote by davo
LOL It's interesting you should mention "foolishness" -that you assert as "not pertinent" the preceding verse as being somehow not applicable is unbelievable, yet based on your posts, understandable."

what i was saying was "not pertinent" was "cloud comings" in relation to Acts 1:11 says and i quote:

and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? THIS Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven."

it does not say the "apostles will be there" that is another preterist rewrite...it says what it simply says; he will come in the same way they saw him go, it does not say he will come back to them. to say that is to basically say the scripture is wrong itself, because the apostles were not on the mount of olives in 70ad.

he physically went up, they watched this happen. and as i pointed out before, Jesus "spiritually" returned decades before 70ad at the day of pentecost, and did not leave. it is well documented in the book of acts.

GW · Apr 16, 2002

Messenger Said:
the preterist contradicting themselves because GW is saying the mortal body dies and ANOTHER body is givin in it's place, in direct oposition to the bible saying life will be givin to the MORTAL body, that will be raised from the dead and made glorified.

GW replies
No. The life given to our mortal bodies is the quickening work of the Holy Spirit that is in us FOR THE PURPOSE that we should no longer be helpless slaves to the fleshly impulses of these earthy bodies that we live in. As Paul states: THEREFORE we are not debtors to the flesh to live after the flesh. What flesh? Our future resurrection bodies? No. He continues...

"For if you live after the flesh you shall die; but if you THROUGH THE SPIRIT DO MORTIFIY THE DEEDS OF THE BODY ye shall live." (Rom 8:13)

Which body? The future resurrection body? Of course not. The quickening of the Holy Spirit in our mortal bodies is so that through the Spirit we do mortify the deeds of the body and thereby not be debtors to fulfill their lusts which are in them according to a law of evil Paul just discussed in Romans 7:19-25. Paul's cure for the dilemma of the believer stated in Romans 7:19-25 is Romans 8:1-13! -- namely, the quickening work of the Holy Ghost in us so that our "outward man" will not rule over us to do its evil lusts.

Finally, please quit mis-stating my beliefs about Christ's atonement. Unless you are a universalist who believes all people are saved regardless of whether or not they have Christ, then you must agree that for them Christ's death has gained nothing. The damned gain NOTHING from Christ. When Paul's churches were heading back to the Law as their means of righteousness Paul said:

"IF you be circumcised [as a means of righteousness with God] CHRIST SHALL PROFIT YOU NOTHING ... CHRIST IS BECOME OF NO EFFECT UNTO YOU, whoever of you are justified by the Law"
--Gal 5:2,4

That's all I mean and you are trying to misrepresent me as if I am saying something I am not. Please read my support from Gal 5:2-4 and stop intentionally misrepresenting me.

Thanks,
GW

davo · Apr 16, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger what i was saying was "not pertinent" was "cloud comings" in relation to Acts 1:11 says...

Jesus is part of the Godhead -I trust we agree, do a search in the OT and you'll see you are wrong.

Originally posted by The Messenger he physically went up, they watched this happen. and as i pointed out before, Jesus "spiritually" returned decades before 70ad at the day of pentecost, and did not leave. it is well documented in the book of acts.

So, you're saying Jesus never left?? -guess that means He's here, so there's no need for a future return?? Sounds like you're contradicting your self again. I know Jesus actually promised the Spirit would come -or do you view Jesus as somehow schizoid, or worse -do you hold to the heresy of sabellianism?

davo

Hoonbaba · Apr 16, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger
the old covenant is already being treated as obsolete. it was ratified at the cross and Christ became the new covenant mediator...all before 70ad

But the old covenant practices didn't stop until 70 AD, so it didn't fully disappear until then. And even Paul kept telling the Galatians to throw out the old covenant practices (Gal 4:1-10)

the simple answer" is they were wrong! Christ was resurected physically, our resurrection is compared to it in Romans 8:11 and Romans 6:5

But we know that there was something remarkably different about Jesus's post-resurrection body. He was able to walk through walls, he wasn't easily recognized by his disciples, etc. I think that might have something to do with our resurrected bodies. Honestly I really don't know much about how the resurrection is to be understood.

Romans 8:11
If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you.

Hm...somehow I never noticed this passage. But Ecclesiates 12:7 implies that the human body is done away with

"and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it. " (Ecc 12:7)

And as I mentioned earlier 1 John 3:2 implies the resurrection isn't physical, since we won't know what we will be like.

-Jason

GW · Apr 16, 2002

Originally posted by the Messenger
Romans 8:11
If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you.

This verse is not about the resurrection of the dead. Context, context, context. That quickening action is applied to all living believers in Christ Jesus who must mortify the deeds of our flesh bodies by the Spirit so as to not be debtors to the flesh to obey its lusts.

The Messenger · Apr 16, 2002

hello again Hoonbaba,

i agree with you about Paul, even though he participated in OC temple worship he did not do so because he was under law as GW supposes, Paul himself tells us why:

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews; to those under the law I became as one under the law--though not being myself under the law-- that I might win those under the law.

as far as the physical resurrection Job says:

Job 33:23-25
If there be for him an angel, a mediator , one of the thousand, to declare to man what is right for him; and he is gracious to him, and says, 'Deliver him from going down into the Pit, I have found a ransom; let his flesh become fresh with youth; let him return to the days of his youthful vigor '

we see Christ revealed and know who the mediator was, and what the ransom was.

Job 10:11-12
Thou didst clothe me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews. Thou hast granted me life and steadfast love; and thy care has preserved my spirit.

Job 19:25-27
For I know that my Redeemer lives , and at last he will stand upon the earth; and after my skin has been thus destroyed, then from my flesh I shall see God , whom I shall see on my side, and my eyes shall behold, and not another. My heart faints within me!

also contrary to what GW says, this mortal body is not "made by hands" God made it. a reference to a building is out of context to the temple that is our body, just as Jesus was refering to the temple of His body that will be raised again, and the jews thought he was referring to the stone temple. we will be raised again.

quote by GW
"This verse(Romans 8:11) is not about the resurrection of the dead. Context, context, context.

actually it is GW, i just sat and read the whole of chapter 8 and i cannot fathom how you can logically say this. your toally distorting Paul's writing. the quickening is not the sole subject but rather being led by the spirit AND the resurrection, that if we let the flesh rule we will die but if we are ruled by the we will live. it is a reminder that if we let the spirit lead us, our reward is the resurrection.

postrib · Apr 16, 2002

GW:

...The writer of Hebrews describes the institution of the Temple System and what it meant to them at the present time at which the writer of Hebrews was writing...

He made clear it has been annulled: "There is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof" (Hebrews 7:18). As did Paul in Galatians 3:23-25.

Hebrews 9:8-9 clearly states in the past tense that under the old covenant the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, and that the old covenant practices were a figure "for the time then present," while Hebrews 9:15 and 10:19-22 clearly state in the present tense that the new covenant is manifest, and in the past tense that their hearts have been sprinkled and their bodies washed.

...the "YOU" in the Olivet Discourse is not you and me...

It may be, if you or I are alive when it is fulfilled, which it still has not been. For in no history do we find that the stars fell from heaven and the sign of the Son of man appeared in heaven, at which all the tribes of the earth mourned; nor does any history describe how all the tribes of the earth saw when the Son of man came in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory and sent his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they gathered together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:29-31). None of this has been fulfilled.

GW · Apr 16, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger
actually it is GW, i just sat and read the whole of chapter 8 and i cannot fathom how you can logically say this. your toally distorting Paul's writing. the quickening is not the sole subject but rather being led by the spirit AND the resurrection, that if we let the flesh rule we will die but if we are ruled by the we will live. it is a reminder that if we let the spirit lead us, our reward is the resurrection.

No. The passage says that it is the Holy Spirit's quickening in us that enables us to not be bound to the law of sin in our earthly bodies that we have "crucified with Christ" Paul explains the law of evil that exists in flesh and then launches into the solution to the dilemma. The solution is that we via the Spirit's quickening within us are able to cancel out the law of evil which is in our "dead" flesh bodies. We are regenerate in our "inner man" but our outer man is opposed to the will of the regenerate "inner man." What's the solution? The quickening work of the Holy Spirit so that we, by the Holy Spirit, do "mortify the deeds" of our "dead" bodies. That's what Romans 8 is about. Romans 8:14-25 is parallel to Gal 4:1-5:5 and proves that the adoption of the saints had not happened yet (8:23-25).

Our sin bodies are now "reckoned dead" (Romans 6:11) that they can be annihilated (Romans 6:6). Our "old man is crucified with Him that the body of sin might be destroyed" (Romans 6:6). Only Jesus had sinless flesh that was not to be left to corruption (Acts 2:27-31). No such luck for our sin bodies. We are to view our "outer man" (earthly bodies) as something now dead that they should also be annihilated (Romans 6:6). If not for the quickening work of the Holy Spirit we would be helpless to do anything against the sinful impulses of the flesh. Because of the quickening work of the Holy Spirit "we are not debtors to the flesh" to live after the flesh. For we do by the quickening work of the Holy Spirit mortify the deeds of the flesh.

The Messenger · Apr 16, 2002

Originally posted by davo

Jesus is part of the Godhead -I trust we agree, do a search in the OT and you'll see you are wrong.

actually the OT says im right, especially Isaiah 63 which shows final judgment taken by Christ Himself, and not through the roman army.

Originally posted by davo

So, you're saying Jesus never left?? -guess that means He's here, so there's no need for a future return?? Sounds like you're contradicting your self again.

Click to expand...

i beleive in the physical nature of his departure per Acts 1:11, but Spiritually he came at Pentecost and did not leave. the spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit, how else would Christ be IN you now? how else would the apostles say(pre70ad) they have Christ IN them in the present tense?

Originally posted by davo

I know Jesus actually promised the Spirit would come -or do you view Jesus as somehow schizoid, or worse -do you hold to the heresy of sabellianism?

Click to expand...

actually no, as i say that Christ was always the physical manifestation of God, he is all over the OT as "The Angel of the LORD" plus Christ himself said he was returning to Glory he already had "before the world was made"(John 17:5) both of which clearly refute sabellianism.

since being a Trinitarian i believe Christ is the Physical manifestation of God, it would be "this" Jesus(Acts 1:11) that would return. this presents another problem for preterism, they have a theory saying Christ came back in 70ad, but cannot seem to produce him. the return of Christ is not a visit, scripture does not have him hovering around a bit then leaving, it has him staying.

The Messenger · Apr 16, 2002

quote by GW
"No. The passage says that it is the Holy Spirit's quickening in us that enables us to not be bound to the law of sin "

it is the CROSS that unbinds us from the law.

if we as you say "cancel out" sin in the body, then why are you also saying the body must die because it sins, does the Holy Spirit fail?

even in greek it seems loosely structured as a chiasm, which is why your trying to say it is about one thing only is not working out real well, it obviously covers more than one subject and uses references to the resurrection to add punch to his instruction on walking in the Spirit.

GW · Apr 16, 2002

Originally posted by The Messenger
it is the CROSS that unbinds us from the law.
if we as you say "cancel out" sin in the body, then why are you also saying the body must die because it sins, does the Holy Spirit faill

Brother, the law that I'm talking about (and what Paul is talking about) is listed in Romans 7:21-23. Paul calls it the "law of sin which is in my members" in Romans 7:22-23. It is sin living in our fleshly earthly bodies. The earthly body, according to Paul, has a sinful nature all of its own. Read Romans 7:15-25. Our earthly bodies are sin-soaked things wherein no good thing dwells (Romans 7:18). When we become regenerated, we gain an "INNER MAN" that is totally good and wants God's will. For Paul, that becomes our TRUE SELF now (Romans 7:17,20,22). So when we commit sin it is not WE that do it but SIN in the fleshly earthly body that does it (Romans 7:17,20,22).

Our new INNER MAN alone, which is our true self, cannot of itself overcome the sinful impulses of the "OUTER MAN" (our natural human body) which is by nature a sin body. Therefore we have "RECKONED THEM DEAD" (Romans 6:11), yet we still live in our sin-bodies and feed them and clothe them and they are by nature always against our INNER MAN. God no longer recognizes our sinful flesh bodies nor holds them against us. In HIS EYES they are dead and non-existing. God only sees our INNER MAN because of Christ's atonement. Nevertheless we live in our human, mortal bodies and must cope with their sin-disposition.

Are we just helpless in our earthly bodies that we can't overcome the sin-impulses which is their very nature? NO! Why not? Because of the QUICKENING WORK of the Holy Spirit who comes to the aid of our "INNER MAN" and allows us the strength to live holy lives wherein we can actually overcome the sinful deeds of our earthly bodies, walking true to the INNER MAN -- our true selves. We CANNOT walk true to our INNER MAN without the Holy Spirit's quickening work. That's Paul's teaching from Romans 7:7 all the way through to Romans 8:13.

Our human, mortal bodies and their natural sin-dispositions are annihilated via physical death. Only Christ's flesh was not to experience this corruption (Acts 2:27-31). "Corruption cannot inherit incorruption" (1 Cor 15:50).

Follow?

Hoonbaba · Apr 16, 2002

Hm...

I just read all of Romans 7-8, and I don't see how it has anything to do with the resurrection, just like how 1 Cor 12-14 has nothing to do with Christ's second coming.

And 1 Corinthians 15:50 says that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom. But those Job passages are interesting. I'll spend time reading on them later.

-Jason

Bill · Apr 16, 2002

Hello: I am new to Christian Forums and I am trying to navigate around through the program. I am very interested in being involved in the discussion about the end times and the coming of Christ Jesus. I do believe that this is the Generation that would not pass and we would experience His Glorious coming.
Bill :clap:

Hoonbaba · Apr 16, 2002

Originally posted by Bill
Hello: I am new to Christian Forums and I am trying to navigate around through the program. I am very interested in being involved in the discussion about the end times and the coming of Christ Jesus. I do believe that this is the Generation that would not pass and we would experience His Glorious coming.
Bill

Hi Bill,

Welcome aboard! Actually I'm a bit new too

But anyway, just for your information, there are 4 major views on the end times:

Historicist
Idealist
Dispensationalist
Preterist

For the most part, this board primarily consists of dispensationalists and preterists. I know all these terms may be somewhat confusing, but if you believe that this generation is the terminal generation, then you would be described as a dispensationalist.

But, I'm a preterist. I believe all end times scripture was fulfilled in the first century. ::gasp::

Preterists look at the 'time of the end' as the end of Biblical Judaism, not the end of the world (Ecclesiastes 1:4). I get the impression you think I'm crazy. That's perfectly understandable

Honestly if you'd like to know more about preterism, I'll share about it. If not, then that's fine.

God bless!

-Jason

GW · Apr 16, 2002

Originally posted by postrib
He made clear it has been annulled: "There is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof" (Hebrews 7:18). As did Paul in Galatians 3:23-25.

It was only disannulled at that time to those who firmly grasped onto righteousness by faith in the HOPE of salvation which was about to occur (1 Peter 1:3-5; Rom 13:11; Heb 9:28; Rom 8:23-25). All jews who were not in Christ during AD 30-70, AS WELL as all those early Christians who were slipping back into bondage, were fully stuck in the bondage of THE LAW OF MOSES. It was still an active, living code up until AD 70, and the earliest believers who had received the hope of salvation were not yet adopted as sons of God, but were waiting to receive the adoption (Romans 8:22-25).

So we see that salvation was yet future for the early followers of Jesus (Heb 9:28; Rom 8:23-25; 1 Peter 1:3-5; Romans 13:11) because they were not just ZAPPED magically out of the Law Covenant at AD 30. Those Jews were being preached to by Paul and the apostles that they might come out of the bondage of keeping the Law of Moses for righteousness and grasp onto righteousness by faith. As we see in Gal 4:1-5:5 and Romans 8:14-25, the AD 30-70 Church was fully entangled in the Law of Moses which was not yet vanished until AD 70 when the Temple was destroyed. The Law of Moses for righteousness was fully active in the Nation and overpowering weaker followers of Jesus in the years AD 30-70.

Originally posted by postrib
Hebrews 9:8-9 clearly states in the past tense that under the old covenant the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, and that the old covenant practices were a figure "for the time then present,"

The text does not say "THEN present," (meaning before AD 30) but rather says "THE PRESENT TIME," meaning the 60s AD when the book of Hebrews was written and the church of those hebrews were still carrying out a Judaic form of Christianity including Law practices and many were believing falsely they would be saved via the Mosaic system.

Hebrews 9:9
which is a simile in regard TO THE PRESENT TIME, in which both gifts and sacrifices ARE OFFERED, which are not able, in regard to conscience, to make perfect him who is serving

The book of Hebrews was written to stop Christians from going back under the Law of Moses as a means for righteousness.

Christ had become to those law-stumbling jews a promise of "good things TO COME." [again, future].

Hebrews 9:11
But Christ having become a high priest of the good THINGS TO COME

Colossians 2:16-17
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: which are a shadow of the THINGS TO COME

Bill · Apr 16, 2002

Hi Jason:
Thanks for your response. Actually I leave myself open to discover the truth of what God is attempting to say. Of the four I am probably a dispensationalist. No, I do not think you are crazy, I love to talk about God's word and share with brothers and sisters in Christ. Sure remind me about the fundamentals of preterism.
In Christ,
Bill

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