On the clouds?

Pacigoth13 said:

And when this happens, every "eye shall behold him" and "every knee shall bow, every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord" but this event is not so much an event but the end of all events.

There are "second coming" type passages, but those that speak of "coming on the clouds" are not so. This is for two primary reasons. 1. A better translation of "erchomenon" would be "going" not "coming". 2. The "on the clouds" thing is a very recognisable 1st century metaphor denoting exaltation, not return. When Jesus left the earth (ascension) he went to be glorified, exalted. The exaltation of Jesus means that he is the vindicated King, the Messiah. Christians who die in the Lord will be exalted in the clouds with Christ, since Jesus is the first born of all that will be for his followers (this is what Paul was talking about Thessalonians). This is language which is very important and necessary and honestly do not necessitate doctrines about "second coming" or "rapture".

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have you ever imagined the dread that people will feel when they

even hear the mention of Jesus's return?

People will bow even before they set sight on him.....

Bear in mind that the atmosphere would even react to His presence

the localisation of Christ in space does not reduce the massive impact he will have

Revelation 1:7
"Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen."


See exactly what this verse says. He come with "clouds" not on them, but with them.

So what are "clouds"

Let the Bible tell us what "clouds" are.


Ps 104:3
"He lays the beams of His upper chambers in the waters, Who makes the clouds His chariot, Who walks on the wings of the wind"


What is now His "chariot"


Ps.68:17
"The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place."


Is. 66:15-18

" For behold, the Lord will come with fire And with His chariots, like a whirlwind, To render His anger with fury, And His rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by His sword The Lord will judge all flesh; And the slain of the Lord shall be many. 17 "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens After an idol in the midst, Eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together," says the Lord."


The clouds that Jesus returns with are His angels. He will come back with fire and at that time many will be slain. According to these verse amongst those who will suffer this fate will be those who eat swines flesh, which is an abomination to the Lord.

Pacigoth: Look up in the sky. It's a bird, it's a plane, it's superman... No man, it's not superman! It's the Son of Man flying on the clouds!!! Well, I guess that Jesus could play Superman if he wanted to, but I hope that this illustrates how bizzarre the idea really is.

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No, but it illustrates how blasphemous some of you Christians can be without even realizing it.

"The LORD says to my Lord: 'Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.' The LORD will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying, 'Rule in the midst of Your enemies.'" - Psalm 110:1-2

"And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time." - Acts 3:17-21

Is it not obvious from these two passages that Messiah will remain in heaven, at the right hand of the Father, until the time comes for him to be sent? It seems obvious enough to me.

The passage in Acts actually parallels this future coming to his presence on earth during the first advent, when he "suffered" all the things spoken of through the prophets. Both periods concern the fulfillment of Messianic prophecy spoken through all the prophets. This passage alone proves that Messianic prophecy concerning his kingdom reign cannot be fulfilled while the king is absent from the earth. An actual return from heaven is demanded in order for the rest of Messianic prophecy to be fulfilled.

Now, here is the real kicker:

"And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them. They also said, 'Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.'" - Acts 1:9-11

Pacigoth: I do believe in the "second coming" and therefore am not full preterist. But it is not a space-time event. It is an eternal now, present ongoing realised reality. Someday, when time ends, Jesus' glory and parousia will fully engulf all that is and God will be all in all.

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Sounds to me like you believe in a second coming which has already occurred, but is yet to be fully realized. That would fall under the category of "various full blown preterist heresies."

-Tim

"Let the nations be aroused and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat, for there I will sit to judge. Put in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe. Come, tread, for the wine press is full; The vats overflow, for their wickedness is great. Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision! The sun and moon grow dark, and the stars lose their brightness. And the LORD roars from Zion and utters His voice from Jerusalem, and the heavens and earth tremble" (Joel 3:12-16). (pp Zech. 12-14; Matt. 24:29-31; Rev. 19:11-21)

In Christ,
Tracey

vunderbar said:

Sounds to me like you believe in a second coming which has already occurred, but is yet to be fully realized. That would fall under the category of "various full blown preterist heresies."

-Tim

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Your post falls under the category of "i have nothing to answer with, so I call you a full preterist" - Turning the coin, dispensationalism is only a 150 year old heretical system that denies almost 2,000 years of Church history of dogma.

So if I'm reading these posts right, there must be a gap for partial preterists that occurs in Revelation. I'm thinking it is between Rev. 20 and Rev. 21. Is that right?

Is there a partial preterist detailed explanation of the events described in Rev 1-20? A link, maybe?

Pericles: Your post falls under the category of "i have nothing to answer with, so I call you a full preterist

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Um, those who say the parousia is "already underway" are full blown preterist heretics. Since you deny a future return of the Lord, Pericles, than you are a heretic according to all of Christian history.

Pericles: Turning the coin, dispensationalism is only a 150 year old

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Not much "younger" than covenant theology. Why do you refuse to research this fact, Pericles?

Pericles: heretical system

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Prove it, Pericles. I can prove the heretical nature of your theology. Now, prove your accusations against mine.

that denies almost 2,000 years of Church history of dogma.

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No, actually we are the only ones upholding the literal interpretation and premillennialism of the ancient church. All you other folks are heretics.

-Tim

vunderbar said:

Not much "younger" than covenant theology. Why do you refuse to research this fact, Pericles?

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Yeah yeah...Paul set forth covenant theology all over the place. You keep reciting the same old dispensationalist mantra, and everyone that challenges your ridiculous theology is a heretic! Is that a "damnable heretic" or just a "heretic"?

You are the only ones practicing literal hermeneutics allright. Generation literally means generation in your dictionary, soon literally means soon, and at hand is literally at hand.

Pericles: Yeah yeah...Paul set forth covenant theology all over the place. You keep reciting the same old dispensationalist mantra, and everyone that challenges your ridiculous theology is a heretic! Is that a "damnable heretic" or just a "heretic"?

I love all these scriptures that you presented. Lets see... Paul said here and Paul said it there. Please present some proof.

Vunderbar: Not much "younger" than covenant theology. Why do you refuse to research this fact, Pericles?


You know as well as I do why they don't research it. They want to be willingly ignorant.God Bless.

Pericles: You are the only ones practicing literal hermeneutics allright. Generation literally means generation in your dictionary, soon literally means soon, and at hand is literally at hand.

Ok, we do take this stuff literal. We have explained it time and time again. You are the one ignoring this. You take all this stuff literal but then ignore his coming in matthew. Please present some proof. Everytime I have asked this of you, you have never delivered.

Josh1 said:

Ok, we do take this stuff literal. We have explained it time and time again. You are the one ignoring this. You take all this stuff literal but then ignore his coming in matthew. Please present some proof. Everytime I have asked this of you, you have never delivered.

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You take "soon" and "at hand" literally? How is that? Last time you said anything about this, you told me that they could mean thousands of years in God's language! That doesn't sound very literal to me...please don't make me laugh now!

Pacigoth13 said:

Look up in the sky. It's a bird, it's a plane, it's superman... No man, it's not superman! It's the Son of Man flying on the clouds!!!

Well, I guess that Jesus could play Superman if he wanted to, but I hope that this illustrates how bizzarre the idea really is.

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Am I to assume that the waters of the Sea did not depart to allow Moses' people to cross and then wash all the Egyptians away? Bizzarre, so it must not have happened.

The sea turned to blood as Moses said. Bizzarre? Must not have happened.

Voice from Heaven? Bizzarre? Must not have happened.

Yes, it sounds bizzarre, but that is not a basis for discrediting the possibility. Funny how you think it is bizzarre with a superman comparison. But, I guess the other bizzarre things Jesus has done did not happened... Like giving the blind back their sight. RAISING THE DEAD. Healing the lame with a mere touch. Walking ON water. Ascending into Heaven. Let me say that if one could do these things, coming on the clouds would NOT be bizzarre.

cbk: Am I to assume that the waters of the Sea did not depart to allow Moses' people to cross and then wash all the Egyptians away? Bizzarre, so it must not have happened.
The sea turned to blood as Moses said. Bizzarre? Must not have happened.
Voice from Heaven? Bizzarre? Must not have happened.
Yes, it sounds bizzarre, but that is not a basis for discrediting the possibility. Funny how you think it is bizzarre with a superman comparison. But, I guess the other bizzarre things Jesus has done did not happened... Like giving the blind back their sight. RAISING THE DEAD. Healing the lame with a mere touch. Walking ON water. Ascending into Heaven. Let me say that if one could do these things, coming on the clouds would NOT be bizzarre.

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cbk, oh man oh man was that awesome!

-Tim

Pericles: Yeah yeah...Paul set forth covenant theology all over the place.

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lol! You can't prove a word of it. You can't show me a single Bible verse which even remotely outlines a two-covenant-system. You can't show me a single Bible verse which describes the Scriptural covenants as a mere subset of covenants revealing the higher so-called "covenant of grace." Sheesh!

Pericles: You keep reciting the same old dispensationalist mantra...

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Same old mantra? Pericles, if covenant theology was formulated in the sixteenth century and systematized by Herman Witsius and Johannes Coccius (which it was according to all historians), than any attempt by covenantalists to use "recent origin" arguments to discredit dispensational theology is shown to be incorrect, and even a bit hypocritical. Why do you continue to use an "argument" against dispensational theology which is just as valid against covenantal theology? As I have already said, there was no systematized theology in the early church, and, furthermore, there is no reason to expect such a thing in the early church. These are obvious facts to most people.

Pericles: ...and everyone that challenges your ridiculous theology is a heretic!

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Nah, I don't drop the "heretic" bomb or "apostate" bomb very often. I only drop it on people, like you, who deserve it. You have called me names from the very first day I started posting here, Pericles. That last post of your's contained the third time you referred to dispensational theology as "heretical" without providing any real reason for doing so. I let the other two incidents go, but this time I felt it was necessary to point out who the real heretics are on this board. It is those, like you, who deny a future return of the Son of God from heaven to earth, a second advent of Messiah, a second presence (parousia) of Messiah upon earth. It is those, like you, who deny a future and bodily resurrection of the dead for judgement. No "spiritual resurrection" that began in 70 A.D. No, that is not what the Bible teaches at all. Since we can go to the cemetary and dig up Christians, Pericles, than it should be obvious that the resurrection has not occurred. It is obvious to all except the preterists, whom believe in a "resurrection" which somehow does not have anything to do with the dead body. A simple reading of Mark 16:6 refutes that notion outright.

Pericles: Is that a "damnable heretic" or just a "heretic"?

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I simply pointed out that the ancient church was premillennial, and all non-premillennial views (which rely on denying the literal interpretation also held by the ancient church) are views which have drifted from the doctrine of the ancient church on these matters. If you're going to throw around "heretic" labels, my friend, than brace yourself... for it is a simple thing to prove the unorthodox nature of your views, and all non-premillennial views for that matter.

Pericles: You are the only ones practicing literal hermeneutics allright.

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Actually, everyone practices "literal hermeneutics." Its just that most choose, for whatever reason, to employ a "spiritual" method when it comes to eschatology. I reject that inconsistent notion, and since I therefore employ literal interpretation to all fields of Bible doctrine, I end up a dispensationalist.

Pericles: Generation literally means generation in your dictionary, soon literally means soon, and at hand is literally at hand.

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You clearly have not read the past posts of mine on this issue which I have linked to you and others on this board:
http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3849&mesg_id=3900&page=2
http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=4281&mesg_id=4319&page=4
http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=4281&mesg_id=4333&page=4

Pericles, was God "wrong" when he said "you shall die and not live" (2Kings 20:1)? If he was not "wrong," then your whole argument based on time texts is reduced to nothing. The reason you can't see this is because you have no understanding of the kingdom offer presented in the New Testament. You don't seem to realize that God sometimes conditions things on the actions of individuals. Your denial of the reality of the kingdom offer does not void our explanations. It only shows that you are apparently unable to place yourself in our shoes before attempting to present a critique.

-Tim

p.s. You did not present a single reason to conclude that dispensational theology is a "heretical" system. I am not surprized.

wow vunderbar...glad you found these forums...good stuff..