Cessation of the gifts?

OnederWoman · Nov 17, 2003

I am a self admitted skeptical charismatic... in that... though I believe the gifts do exist still today... I am very wary of some of the Pentacostal typpe movements such as Word of Faith, and anything that places the gifts above the word and/or tries to say that salvation is works based. When seeing the gifts manifested I am critical, meaning that I look closely at anything that happens and weigh it against the Word, if it is contradictory of the Word of God then it's not of God. I also pray about anything that happens.

So... I was listening to Christian radio while taking my son to school this morning and I hear a piece on warning that the rise in Pentacostalism is a sign of hte end times and that anyone who uses the gifts is deceiving or being deceived. It warned of Prosperity teaching and works based salvation teaching. I agreed on some points and already know that you really need to pray to be able to discern these types of things. I just can't be convinced though that all those who practice in the gifts are in the wrong. I just have witness too much that I just know was from the Lord. (of course I've also witnessed some instances when it was definately not from the Lord).

So... anyway... I was just curious for those here that are on the cessationist side. Are there any scriptures other than those used from 1 Corinthians 13 that support the view of cessation?

Thanks

MikeMcK · Nov 17, 2003

I believe very much in the perpetuity of the gifts but I have serious concerns about the way they're commonly practiced in the church today.

Grace_Alone4gives · Nov 17, 2003

MikeMcK said:
I believe very much in the perpetuity of the gifts but I have serious concerns about the way they're commonly practiced in the church today.

I agree completely.

I believe all gifts are still alive today in the Church - but I would not say alive and well.

I believe in miracles, in the gift of tongues, healings etc...but I also believe in the gifts of Intercession, Mercy, Exhortation and Teaching etc... I have seen all these gifts and more, operate today.

What I have concerns about it the way they are being operated by some believers today. When one is in search for a gift, or the experience of that gift, over God, it becomes higher than God. Many people experience God's power through the sign gifts, then constantly seek that experience pver and over again. When the experience does not come, they become depressed, concerned...even tend to fall away. When the opposite happens, their walk is so focused on the gifts, that there is little room for the simple faith they once had...doctrin and theology gets lost....and at times, false gifts are exposed and practices...I believe this is happeneing today.

I hope I am coming across as someone who is concerned, not someone fearful of the Charasmatic Movement. I myself am Charasmatic in alot of ways...

Bruce S · Nov 17, 2003

HopeTheyDance said:
I agree completely.

I believe all gifts are still alive today in the Church - but I would not say alive and well.

I believe in miracles, in the gift of tongues, healings etc...but I also believe in the gifts of Intercession, Mercy, Exhortation and Teaching etc... I have seen all these gifts and more, operate today.

What I have concerns about it the way they are being operated by some believers today.

There is NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN.

The same discussions were held the day OF Pentecost, and will be held in heaven too I fear.

Now, in heaven, does one NEED foretelling...grin.

Hey, it is there, some have IT, some use IT, some need IT, some abuse IT, some want IT, some distrust IT, some wonder what **IT** is.

Like anything else in life, IT can be misused, not used, or unused.

Faith is NOT logical, not real faith anyway, it can be JUSTIFIED by logic, but never proved by logic, it is anti logic frankly. Not belief, but faith, many believe, sort of, few believe all the way....

The "gifts" help one, who uses them, get over some of those barriers.

And YES, sometimes, they do seem odd, even to those exercising them.

Grace_Alone4gives · Nov 17, 2003

Bruce S said:
There is NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN.

The same discussions were held the day OF Pentecost, and will be held in heaven too I fear.

Now, in heaven, does one NEED foretelling...grin.

Hey, it is there, some have IT, some use IT, some need IT, some abuse IT, some want IT, some distrust IT, some wonder what **IT** is.

Like anything else in life, IT can be misused, not used, or unused.

Faith is NOT logical, not real faith anyway, it can be JUSTIFIED by logic, but never proved by logic, it is anti logic frankly. Not belief, but faith, many believe, sort of, few believe all the way....

The "gifts" help one, who uses them, get over some of those barriers.

And YES, sometimes, they do seem odd, even to those exercising them.

Agreed......how is this in response to my post? Sorry - I must be missing something.

stantar · Nov 18, 2003

Here is what I believe

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

I see 1 Corinthians 13:10 as describing the completion of the perfect Word of God...aka the Bible...

OnederWoman · Nov 18, 2003

stantar said:
Here is what I believe

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

I see 1 Corinthians 13:10 as describing the completion of the perfect Word of God...aka the Bible...

Well... after I specifically asked for soemthing other than 1 Cor 3 that would back up cessationism... it was still used.

As you see the 'perfect' being the Bible... I see the 'perfect' as being God, the Lord Jesus. http://www.biblebell.org/stdycor1310.html and http://members.aol.com/twarren17/shall_cease.html make good points.

Foundthelight · Nov 18, 2003

What I would like to see;

A linguistic analysis of people speaking in tongues that supports the tongue being a real language. If some one has access to such analyses please post a link. Is there a tongue using church willing to let someone come in and record and analyse? Remember, on the day of Pentacost the community of believers were speaking in real languages. I have had people tell me that today's tongues are "Angelic languages" which to me seems to be unBiblical.
Reliable before and after documentation of healings performed by the various TV and radio preachers that claim to have such powers.

I believe that these gifts exist today. I also believe that there are many false claims.

stantar · Nov 18, 2003

Sorry to use the Corinthians verse, but I see that the Word of God is God:
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So I take one verse very stongly. Even though it can be a bit confusing, I think it comes down to faith just like everything else. Knowlege kills faith.

RevKidd · Nov 18, 2003

stantar said:
Sorry to use the Corinthians verse, but I see that the Word of God is God:
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So I take one verse very stongly. Even though it can be a bit confusing, I think it comes down to faith just like everything else. Knowlege kills faith.

I believe that we all understand John 1:1's reference to "Word" as meaning Jesus Christ, which is correct in stating that the "word" is God. But in Corinthians it is speaking of a future event. John 1:1 is speaking of a past event that has happened.

So you either believe that Christ has already returned making you a preterist in some way, or your understanding of the scriptures is some what IMO misconstrude. Please explain in better detail.

God Bless

Foundthelight · Nov 18, 2003

stantar said:
Sorry to use the Corinthians verse, but I see that the Word of God is God:
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So I take one verse very stongly. Even though it can be a bit confusing, I think it comes down to faith just like everything else. Knowlege kills faith.

I have a lot of knowlege of the world. I have a BS in Physics another in Electrical Engineering, and a minor in Math. I saw the world in the Navy and lived a sinner's life for many years. I am a senior executive in a Fortune 100 company. I have helped my wife give birth to three children and watched one of them die at six weeks immediately following major heart surgery.

It was knowlege of the Word obtained primarily from reading the Bible that brought me back to Christ and the narrow path. In my case knowlege strengthened my faith. We can never know too much.

stantar · Nov 18, 2003

I do not think Jesus has already come back, just that the perfect Word of God has been completed. At the time of corinthians, the Bible was not complete so God had signs and wonders. Once people had the Word of God and the Apostles died off, the signs and wonders dissapeared. Now this is what I get from the scripture I posted. I actually don't mind what people believe as long as they have a correct salvation message and can back themselves up with the Bible.

Thanks for listening and keep in the faith.

OnederWoman · Nov 18, 2003

stantar said:
Knowlege kills faith.

I find the above statement to be ignorant of what the word of God says. Personally I find that as I grow in knowledge of the Lord, so do I grow in Faith...

Romans 11:33 - O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Romans 15:14 - And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another.

1 Corinthians 1:5 - That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;

1 Corinthians 12:8 - For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

2 Corinthians 6:6 - By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,

2 Corinthians 8:7 - Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

Ephesians 1:17 - That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Ephesians 3:4 - Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Ephesians 4:13 - Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Philippians 1:9 - And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;

Philippians 3:8 - Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Colossians 1:9 - For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Colossians 1:10 - That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

2 Peter 1:2 - Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

2 Peter 1:3 - According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

2 Peter 1:5 - And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2 Peter 1:8 - For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 3:18 - But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

admtaylor · Nov 18, 2003

RevKidd said:
I believe that we all understand John 1:1's reference to "Word" as meaning Jesus Christ, which is correct in stating that the "word" is God. But in Corinthians it is speaking of a future event. John 1:1 is speaking of a past event that has happened.

So you either believe that Christ has already returned making you a preterist in some way, or your understanding of the scriptures is some what IMO misconstrude. Please explain in better detail.

God Bless

I think what he's saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that the Scriptures weren't completed at the time, not perfected. Since the Word is God (Christ) then the completion of the Word had not yet occurred. Therefore the perfection of the Word had not yet happened. Is this what you meant?

Personally, on the subject of the Word, I see no difference between the Word of God and God Himself. Let me explain, although all of God's knowledge and righteousness isn't conveyed in the Word it is breathed from God and as stated in John 1:1 the Word is God. Therefore I believe that it is to be trusted as infallible. No biasis, no mistakes, no misguidance. As far as the issue at hand you need to take into account more than just a few verses, you need to take the revelation of the entire Word into account. Then I don't see any problem in understanding that Gifts such as are being spoken of here have ceased. Having said that I don't put ANYTHING beyond God. If it's His will to heal someone it is and I believe He does, if it's His will to enlighten someone I believe He will and He does. I don't believe though that all believers are endowed with a supernatural gift as is being talked about here. We are empowered by the Holy Spirit to discern the Scriptures, to inspect our lives and actions and He even brings those sufferings and longings that we can't express in words to God for us. The Holy Spirit emboldens us when we are walking with God, but there's no need now days to show amazing signs and wonders. His Word is completed and if a person's ears and eyes are open they will come to know Christ.

If anything I said confused anyone just let me know, I was just typing as the thoughts rolled out of my mind.

-Adam

OnederWoman · Nov 19, 2003

Adding another scripture regardling knowledge....

HOSEA 4: 6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.

stantar · Nov 19, 2003

I was just trying to say that knowlege can easily become a stumbling block when you need to know why everything is the way it is to the point you are more concerned with theology than the Word of God. You miss out when you lose faith to your pursuit of knowlege. Not all knowlege is bad, but when if becomes more than God himself, which it easily can, it is time to pluck the eye.
Didn't mean to be offensive,
Brian

Bruce S · Nov 20, 2003

Foundthelight said:
What I would like to see;

A linguistic analysis of people speaking in tongues that supports the tongue being a real language. If some one has access to such analyses please post a link. Is there a tongue using church willing to let someone come in and record and analyse? Remember, on the day of Pentacost the community of believers were speaking in real languages. I have had people tell me that today's tongues are "Angelic languages" which to me seems to be unBiblical..

PRIVATE, in a closed room, by yourself is the most common form of Tounges nowadays.

Seeking to invalidate that REAL presence of the Holy Spirit, with a demand for translatable foreign language outpourings restricts the potential believer.

And is a stumbling block to the ENTIRE gifts that all Christians should have, if they are willing to humble themselves, feel foolish, and just do it.

"Head Faith" versus "Heart Faith" for many with a strong analytical background, they need to KNOW, and some aspects are just NOT going to respond to that need, BEFOREHAND, of what happens.

Pentacostalism is anti-head, it is something that is like looking in a rearview mirror. You DO IT, and only AFTER doing it, does any of this make sense.

Swallow your headstuff, turn it off, [you keep it anyway] and get on your knees, in the privacy of your home, waggle the tounge, do it for five minutes, for real, ignore the thoughts that still ARE in your mind, they don't go away, but your SPIRIT now will communicate with God, and you most likely will start to tremble when doing so [scared me half to death]

WARNING: You will feel like a fool, you will sound worse....grin. But you WILL find edification, and watch, odd things like courage to witness will emerge.

I can't really explain it in words it is not a written thing, it is an experientially type of EVENT.

pmarquette · Nov 20, 2003

I see 1 Corinthians 13:10 as describing the completion of the perfect Word of God...aka the Bible...
when we are in heaven , with Jesus , face to face , we will no longer need the gifts , for there will no longer be a devil to oppose , or a need for them to manifest ; as long as we are within the kingdom of darkness , there is a need for armor, gifts , and authority - the present ministry of the Holy Spirit

Tracie · Nov 22, 2003

I believe in the gifts, but I've just seen tounges used un-Biblically so many times. I go to my in-law's church when we visit and people do it at very inappropriate times. And it looks to me that it means nothing at those times. Once I went to an Assembly of God and this one guy was speaking in tounges while the pastor was giving his sermon. All I could listen to was the scary guy in the back. It completely took my concentration off the sermon. At my inlaws church it is mostly at worship time, but here I am trying to woship and I've got some person rambling on in my ear. (with nobody translating, by the way. I've never heard anyone translate in a public place like is supposed to be done) It makes me feel like in situations like that it might be more likely to be from Satan than God. I honestly don't think God wants people speaking in tongues at times that it will interrupt other people from hearing the Word. I totally became unimpressed when I saw a guy forcing his little kid to lay down on the floor and do weird stuff. Shouldn't a reaction like that be from the Holy Spirit? It's not something you teach your kid to do, is it?

My husband and I are starting a discipleship with a couple from our church and we just did the first lesson tonight (It's a program through the Navigators). It talked about faith being based on fact, not emotion. Emotion changes with circumstances. Facts don't change. It scares me becaue it feels to me that the churches I've been to who act like that base so much on feelings and emotion. And you can see it in their spiritual walk as well. If they aren't attending some sort of revival or going to a worship service every night they get depressed. It's sad. It's hard to see a true joy in them.

Oh, one more thing. I read recently that the practice of speaking in tongues during church or worship didn't come about until the late 19th century. It was at the beginning of the Pentecostal denomination. Does anyone know about this? That also makes me wonder what's up. Why would that practice be dead for centuries if it were genuine?

Speaking in tongues on your own is one thing...that's just between you and God. I just hate hearing it when it's interrupting a sermon or distracting me from my own worship. That's all.

Tracie

Foundthelight · Nov 22, 2003

Tracie Oh said:
1Co 14:5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may be edified.
1Co 14:6 Now, brothers, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?

1Co 14:19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.

I can't speak to the modern practice. I can remind you that Paul was so concerned with the improper use of tongues that he set restrictions on its use.

No tongues in church without an Interpreter present.

Pray in tongues in private if there is no-one who can interpret for you.

Paul was a great believer in tongues, when they did not detract from others' ability to worship. I believe that those churches which allow tongues during services are in error if it detracts from the service and if there is no interpreter.

Cessation of the gifts?

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