The Trinity Doctrine

Sorry if i'm not supposed to post here...but I am

Messenger: One question, have you made the choice and prayed to Jesus to ask Him to come into your heart? Do you know Him and kind of "know" He's there? Then you are. Of course, I can't really say if you are or not, that's a thing between you and God. Pray about it, ask Him. Then you'll know for sure.

Hope this helps.

God Bless.

--Emily

Messanger:

You are a -- "believer"

You are also a babe in the Word. It just means that there is plenty of room for growth.

L I C - Hervey

Messenger,

You do not have to have a title. Read your Bible and listen to God. Also listen to men who have listened to God like a pastor or other great men of faith. After awhile then maybe you can say this is what I believe and give it a title or claim a title that someone else has already defined. But you really do not need a title for your beliefs.

I like some titles because they help categorize what I believe and help me think of it as a unit but it took me a long time before I was ready to do that. I first had to (I am glad that I did0 see for myself what the scriptures teach. So do not get bogged down into titles. Use them as tools but the only title I will never want ot give up is that I am a son of the living God.

BH6

well if you're having a problem with the trinity, search the scriptures, its in there. The staff can help you if you want, although some of us have had to do this repeated times I can send you a short document on some scriptures.

Just because you don't understand the Trinity does not mean you are not a believer. Not even the Apostle Paul understood the Trinity so don't feel bad. We must bow the knee to God's majesty and believe what He has revealed about Himself even if we don't understand it. The only way I could help you with the Trinity is like this:
The bible teaches that there is but one God. The bible also teaches that the Father is God, The Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God and yet they are all eternally distinct.
So what we have theologically is one God (One 'what'), who is revealed in three persons (three 'who's'). God is one in essence and three in nature. Do I understand that fully? No! Can I apprehend it? Yes!

God Bless

You have an honest heart and I applaud that. I know if you study the Trinity you will pobably accept it. I have used this analogy before and think it needs said again.

Mr.A lives in a two dimensional world. Length and width. Get the picture. Now God steps into his world and reveals himself as a point. Now Mr.A can understand a point and tells his friends that God is a point.

Now God steps back into his world and reveals himself as a line......"ok" says Mr.A "God is a point and a line" Mr.A can relate to these two dimensional truths.

God blows his mind and now reveals himself as a square. Mr.A is quite amazed but God revealed himself these three ways and Mr.A believes that God is a point and a line and a square.

Now here in the three dimensional world we see this God as a cube. When he entered Mr.A's world by touching one corner of himself in it Mr.A sees a point. When this God layed one edge in his world he sees a line. When God layed one side in his world he sees a square......But no matter how hard us three dimensional beings try to explain a cube to Mr.A he will never, never be able to understand it........but he may apprehend it and believe it.

This is not a good analogy of the Trinity but it does show that we can not fully understand God but we believe in his revelations of himself.

rkbo...sounds like a book I read once, excellent way to explain it...sphereland..i recommend it to every christian to read.

I do not buy into the trinity also Messenger, I believe in G_d but not the trinity and yet I am afraid to say you are on a sticky wicket as you might find some people not so understanding out there! All I can say is go to G_d in heaven as he is the first and the last. You must take care as lots of people seem well meaning but at the end of the day you must remember that that is their take on christianity and the trinity package and how they believe, and to them it makes sense and that is that but you must live within the boundaries of your own perspective of G_d if you are to grow in your spiritual walk with G_d. Pray to G_d and know that you are not on your own with your thoughts and as for titles we do not need titles, as long as we believe in G_d then that is all that matters. And yes this is my opinion so you can take what you will and G_d bless.

I think about the scripture where some-one asks Jesus what is the most important commandment and his reply can be found in

Mark 12
The Greatest Commandment

28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one .

We all grow as Christians. Many things are learned and revealed. When you study the Trinity and reject it, you are rejecting truth. How then can you act like it's ok not to believe. The doctrine works in every verse you'll find. I have debated this for years and have yet to see ONE verse that it does not work in. This is not a subjective thing. It is verifiable from scripture and that is a certanty.

There is another gospel and another Jesus
2 Cor 11:3-4
3 But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity {of devotion} to Christ.
4 For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear {this} beautifully.
(NAU)

You must have the real Jesus
Matt 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
(KJV)

Exactly rbko..its like saying, well we can work our way to heaven, or no God isn't omni..or no, God does hate and isn't love. I was actually thinking about that verse in 2 cor...Paul says the same thing again seemingly in col. If you come with a different gospel (this includes who Jesus is) then you are not of God. That's what false teachers they change the truth just a little (and no I'm not saying you're false teachers, just saying if you don't know who God is, you can't really love him).

I believe that Jesus is God.

Read the baptism in Mark 1. The trinity, it's in there.
Hard thing to explain though.

I have read both threads on trinity. I am still left with one question. I posted this on the other thread and was ignored...

If trinity is fact...

Then why do people have to know Jesus to be saved?

If God...Jesus...Holy Spirit...are One...

God = (GodJesusHolySpirit)

Wouldn't they automatically have both him and the holy Spirit by believing in God? So then the Jews are saved? Other religions who believe in the creator are saved? For it is a package deal...Buy one get two free!

Before you answer please remember that I am most definitely a Christian! Some of you have been really judgmental on the other thread. I do not have all the answers and neither do you. I will always question doctrine that is not spelled out in my Bible. Surely Jesus would have told us the word trinity if it made the difference in our salvation.

LOVE

When we get to heaven, that means you too "Catchup," we can all ask about the trinity thing. I don't mess around with this topic too much because there's better things to do. I don't mess with end times either. They're gonna happen and no one ever gets anything right. I enjoyed eschatology for a while but now I think it's ridiculous. Anyway, if we're gonna get into fights about the trinity we should take it as a sign to do something else with our time.

"Then why do people have to know Jesus to be saved? "

Before you can be saved you have to know who is saving you and why. Its part of the repentance process in my mind. How can I appolgize and confess to someone I say I love if I don't know who they are.

"Some of you have been really judgmental on the other thread. "

If you're refering to me, and ya might be for I was the one that passed on the if you dont' know who God is you can't be saved thing...look at the book of ephesians

How can I call God my God if I don't know who he is. If that is so..then why isn't God's name Allah, or Krishna, or a thousand other names? Why? Because they are different characters. Knowing Who God is includes knowing Christ is God and the Holy Spirit is God along with God the father and that they are one according to scripture.

"Surely Jesus would have told us the word trinity if it made the difference in our salvation"

I think he did. The whole bible declares that Christ is God..do you agree there? The whole bible declares that the Holy Spirit is God....as it does with God the father. Thus there is one God, three in one..trinity. Christ DID tell us about it. Just didn't use the word trinity..a rose by any other name is still a rose

Messenger said:

I always called myself a Christian. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I believe in the Holy Spirit. I believe God is just that God...all good all powerful. I believe Jesus is the one and only son of God and died for our sins and lived to show us how to live. I believe the Holy Spirit guides us...kinda like our thoughts and morals. But I am not sure I believe in putting God into a trinity package and pretending to have it all figures out that the 3 are actually 1. I was told trinity is the base of Christianity and if I do not believe in trinity than I am not a Christian. I am no certain denomination as I believe they are all right in their own beliefs. I don't have a title because everytime I think I got a title someone informs me I'm not. I am a person who is loved by God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and believes in the Bible 100%. I search for the truth according to God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit not truth according to man and majority rules.
Love and God Bless you all...If anyone knows what I am let me know???

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The early follower of Jesus did not follow the trinity idea so true christians do not today!
barryob

Messenger said:

I always called myself a Christian. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I believe in the Holy Spirit. I believe God is just that God...all good all powerful. I believe Jesus is the one and only son of God and died for our sins and lived to show us how to live. I believe the Holy Spirit guides us...kinda like our thoughts and morals. But I am not sure I believe in putting God into a trinity package and pretending to have it all figures out that the 3 are actually 1. I was told trinity is the base of Christianity and if I do not believe in trinity than I am not a Christian. I am no certain denomination as I believe they are all right in their own beliefs. I don't have a title because everytime I think I got a title someone informs me I'm not. I am a person who is loved by God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and believes in the Bible 100%. I search for the truth according to God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit not truth according to man and majority rules.
Love and God Bless you all...If anyone knows what I am let me know???

Click to expand...

The question is what do the Scriptures teach.

There is ONE God

The Father is called God

The Son is called God

The Spirit is called God

Yet the three operate as distinct in person

The various attempts at a formulation that reconciles all these in an orthodox manner is called Trinity.

I don't buy many of the explanations . . . but I do affirm the Scriptures.

There is ONE God who is Three in Person . . .

Catchup said:

I have read both threads on trinity. I am still left with one question. I posted this on the other thread and was ignored...

If trinity is fact...

Then why do people have to know Jesus to be saved?

If God...Jesus...Holy Spirit...are One...

God = (GodJesusHolySpirit)

Wouldn't they automatically have both him and the holy Spirit by believing in God? So then the Jews are saved? Other religions who believe in the creator are saved? For it is a package deal...Buy one get two free!

Before you answer please remember that I am most definitely a Christian! Some of you have been really judgmental on the other thread. I do not have all the answers and neither do you. I will always question doctrine that is not spelled out in my Bible. Surely Jesus would have told us the word trinity if it made the difference in our salvation.

LOVE

Click to expand...

Wouldn't they automatically have both him and the holy Spirit by believing in God?

Click to expand...

No because the idea of "God" is so fluid . . . from a dot on the wall to a 6 armed woman. Many are directly contradictory to each other . . . Like Islam and Christianity.

Messenger said:

I always called myself a Christian. I believe in God. I believe in Jesus. I believe in the Holy Spirit. I believe God is just that God...all good all powerful. I believe Jesus is the one and only son of God and died for our sins and lived to show us how to live. I believe the Holy Spirit guides us...kinda like our thoughts and morals. But I am not sure I believe in putting God into a trinity package and pretending to have it all figures out that the 3 are actually 1. I was told trinity is the base of Christianity and if I do not believe in trinity than I am not a Christian. I am no certain denomination as I believe they are all right in their own beliefs. I don't have a title because everytime I think I got a title someone informs me I'm not. I am a person who is loved by God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and believes in the Bible 100%. I search for the truth according to God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit not truth according to man and majority rules.

Click to expand...

Messenger said:

Love and God Bless you all...If anyone knows what I am let me know???

Click to expand...

Where the trinity idea came from.

a) "Was the idea of the Trinity - that One God exists in three Persons and One Substance - influenced by pre-Christian traditions? It is well known that the New testament offers no such doctrine, and there is no evidence the Jesus of Nazareth regarded himself as a member of the Trinity. The doctrine was developed during the first four Christian centuries, culminating in the Council of Constantinople in AD 381. . . . In Egypt the concept of trinity was of ancient origin, but it flourished especially in the second century AD and afterwards, when the mystery cult of Isis reached its acme of popularity in a Graeco-Egyptian framework which found adherents in many countries of the Roman empire. This religious amalgam exercised a potent influence on early Christian thinkers, particularly in Alexandria"

b) "There is no clear evidence that the apostles of Jesus entertained that doctrine. Nor does he give his claim to be "Christ" or his participation in the godhead any such prominence as on feels would have been done had he considered it a matter of prime significance."

c) "Professor Studer shows how early apocalyptic vision developed into sophisticated, philosophically orientated theology concerning the mystery of God, the world and humankind."

d) "Christian thought, working with data of the NEW T ESTAMENT AND USING GREEK PHILOSOPHY AS ITS INSTRUMENT, CONSTRUCTED THE DOCTRINE OF TRINITY IN UNITY."

e) "The Platonism and Stoic of the pagan philosophers of the Hellenistic Age was used by the early church Fathers of the Church as a welcome aid to the formulation of Christian doctrine ... "

f) "Those wishing to see Jesus as god rather than man could rely on the Gospel according to St John. For this, despite its Hellenism, had concentrated in mystical and allegorical fashion on the divine nature of Jesus, seeing him not as a man but as a personified idea pp.206, 207)."

g) "Now if, when it emerged, the Nicene dogma was inevitable, it was nonetheless new. . . . Equally, it marks a transition from things related to us as they are in themselves, from the relational concepts of God as supreme agent, Creator, Omnipotent Lord of all, to an ontological concept of the divine substance itself."

h) "It may be that the Platonic contribution in this field [Plaestinian-bred Christian religion] has already been absorbed, and digested by the Christian Fathers, but Plato is perenninial."

i) "Plato's Influence - "Although Plato did not hold a dominant place in the philosophy of the Hellenistic Age, he came to the that position in the early centres of the Christian era. Patristic theology took shape largely in the framework of platonic philosophy. Not only Christian thought but also some Jewish (notably Philo) and later Islamic philosophy owed much to him. Plato's emphasis on nonmaterial reality, a deathless soul distinct from the body, the idea of a cosmic religion (beauty of the celestial order), and a just society has been enormously influential."

j) "The Apologists were in the direct line of decent of Christian tradition. With them began a process of accommodation, inevitable in the progress of the Church, between Christianity and the dominant philosophy, a process carried on with greater skill and knowledge by Alexandrian doctors of the third century and issuing finally in the fourth century in the comprehensive Faith of Nicaea and the Christianization of Hellenism rather that the "Hellenization of Christianity.""

The above quotes from the following publications:-
a) From the dust cover of the book 'Triads and Trinity' by John Gwyn Griffiths BA, DD (Wales), MA (Liverpool), D.Phil., D.Litt. (Oxon,) is Professor Emeritus of Classics and Egyptology at the University of Wales, Swansea
b) H.G. Wells' book 'The Outline of History' p.52, 6l
c) The back cover of Basil Studer's book 'Trinity and Incarnation'
d)'Christian Doctrine' by J.S. Whale p.41
e)'Greek and Roman Philosophy after Aristotle' by Jason L. Saunders Ed p.12
f)'The Climax of Rome' by Michael Grant p.21l
g)'The Way to Nicea' by Bernard Lonergan p.136
h)'PLATO and the Christians' by Adam Fox Archdeacon of Westminster (1757) p.27
i) 'Background if Early Christianity' 2nd Ed. by Everett Ferguson p.315
j) 'The Greek Fathers' by James M. Campbell associate professor of Greek & Latin in the Catholic University America pp.23-24 and all being eminent scholars and or orthodox theologians