O/F OSAS vs. fall from grace

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I am totally convinced after thoroughly studying this for myself in the bible that Jesus will not let us go, providing we continue to want his grace, love, mercy and forgiveness.
I believe that we can let go of Jesus if we are saved and provided that we haven't hardened ourselves to the point that we eternally choose NEVER to come back, he will always take us back -and by that I mean, as a choice we deliberately continue despite God offering to take us back and freely offering his grace and forgiveness, to eternally reject him despite this.
I don't belive that anyone who wants to be forgiven and saved will be rejected by Jesus, even if this is after a long period where they have completely and utterly rejected him.
However I do believe that it is theoretically possible at least to eternally cancel out your salvation and deliberately choose to eternally give back God's grace and forgiveness and I believe that we will have thaty choice for all eternity (though there, there will be no opportunity to come back). I believe that God is a God of free will and will never take us as his prisoners, which is why he gave us the choice to depart from him in the first place. To be eternally secure in the arms of God against your will would be against freewill and we would eternally be prisoners of God.
I believe this because of personal experience and because of the many testimonies I have read of Jesus literally sending backslidden Christians to the gates of hell and only taking themn back when they cried out for mercy, of people having visions, personal visitations by Jesus where he gave them a final ultimatum in their live to come back to him, or lose him for all eternity and others who having come back after many years rejecting Jesus, have been told that it is their final chance or they're out.
I myself too have been clearly told by Jesus, despite going to a Church that believes in OSAS that a Christian can deliberately commit the eternal unpardonable sin, of deliberately eternally rejecting Christ and all that he did for us upon the Cross, I do believe that it is possible to cancel out our salvation. Nothing else in all creation can do it, or force us to do it, but we can deliberately choose to be eternally lost through our own free will, which I believe that God will never deny us for ALL eternity.
Nevertheless, I do believe in the concepts of being born again of God, being given a new spirit by God that cannot exist eternally without God- once we are saved, we will always have the desire in our hearts to come back to God even if we do give ourselves over to the old nature and world and fall away and I do believe in irresistible grace that a genuine Christian cannot resist the grace of God for ever and to be honest I don't believe that in reality, anyone truly born again of the Spirit of God has been or ever will be lost, despite it being theoretically possible- but I am not sure.
:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
Sorry, I LOVE that smilie!
 
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Christi

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Just speaking from my personal experience....I spent YEARS and YEARS out of fellowship with God after salvation. I did what I wanted to do. I never stopped believing in Him, but I did not let Him into my life. In my experience "He chased me back down". He put so many Christians in my life, so many "co-incidences", He popped up into EVERYTHING. I couldn't get away if I wanted to! I was drinking and dancing at a bar one night, and someone I didn't even KNOW came up to me and said, "Remember, God loves you." and walked off. A lady in a mall marched right up to me and said she felt like she'd like to pray for me, if I didn't mind. It was in another city, she didn't know me at all, but she prayed that I would find my way back to "My First Love". To me, it has always reminded me of the one lost sheep, that the shepherd leaves the flock to go searching for. He is good.
 
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Mandy

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The book of Hebrews does not contain verses that say you can lose your salvation. Hebrews was written to Jews who were being heavily persected and some were seeking to go back to the law, under which there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin, because it was made obsolete, of no effect because Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice.
Those who have been truly saved are eternally secure because of Jesus'sacrifice and not because of what we do.
If I can't work for my salvation, then I can't work to keep it. If we are kept secure because of what we do or do not do, then we are not saved by grace.
Jesus said the He is the Good Shepherd and to His sheep He gives eternal life, if it can be lost, then it isn't eternal life.
OSAS is not a license to sin. Those who say the sinners pray and turn to God for the sole means of attaining "fire insurance" are not truly born again.
The important thing is that we abide in Christ where we have absolute assurance.
We as Christians will sin, but if our lives are characterized by continually practicing sin then we have to really take a good hard look at our relationship to God. We can backslide, but the truly redeemed ones will always return to God, because God chastens whom He loves.
Our sin nature does not go away, we still have the old man, yet we have a new nature as well.
 
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Blackhawk

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I believe in OSAS. i will have to get verse support for all my views later since i just can't right now.

But here is the scorecard for me.

1. Total depravity w/ previent grace- Arminian
2. Unconditional election- Calvinistic
3. unlimited atonement- ARminian
4. Resistable grace- Arminian
5. OSAS- CAlvinistic

So I am 3/2 Arminian. So I guess i am an Arminian that stresses God and His Sovereignty over our free choice.

BH6
 
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VOW

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To Louis:

did he ever stop being a son? Nope.

Oh, of course he never stopped being a son! We are all Children of God, whether we acknowledge it or not. We all have the OPPORTUNITY to avail ourselves of God's grace. The son-ship means that the son will always find the family relationship available to him.

But while he was out in the world, out from underneath his father's roof, was he living as part of the family? Was he accepting the family relationship?

I see the father's household in the Prodigal Son as HEAVEN. The constant open door to the son is our constant opportunity to accept God' grace. But when we wave goodbye and walk away, we are rejecting Heaven, rejecting our relationship with God. It's like a teen who cannot live with the rules of the house. I tell my kids constantly, "Hey, as long as you live here, you do things MY WAY. When you live on your own, you can make up your own rules."

Isn't that essentially what God says? In order to live in God's house, we have to abide by His rules. When we decide we know better than God how to live our own lives, when we declare independence from God, isn't that like the Prodigal Son who leaves home?

I just love that story!


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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BigEd

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The main problem with "falling form Grace" is that it denigns the power of Christ's death and resurrection. It would suggest that this is not enough to ensure our salavtion.
another problem seeps in. what exactly is "falling from Grace"? Do we constanlly have to worry that we will someday in the future fall from grace? If we are struggling with a sin in our life , do we need to suffer this added sense of guilt (when we should instead repent from this sin) that we may be "falling from grace" while we struggle with this sin? "fall from Grace" takes us away of Salvation by Grace through faith , and turns it into effectively into salvation by works ( because we would be have to do works to ensure the fact we had not "fallen from Grace" , rather then Christ inside me performing these works.)

So I'm a OSAS man.
 
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LouisBooth

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"We are all Children of God, whether we acknowledge it or not. "

Noo...it means he was always a christian, in the context you put it in. He never stopped being a christian regardless of his actions, again showing OSAS.

"Isn't that essentially what God says? In order to live in God's house, we have to abide by His rules. "

Nope, he says love me and the rules will come naturally. I don't see a meantion of following "rules" in the greatest commandment. ;)
 
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Blackhawk

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"Isn't that essentially what God says? In order to live in God's house, we have to abide by His rules. "

I do not think that this is what it is saying. i do believe that at first the son did not want to live by the rules of the house. Yes. I think that is Original sin. Adam said "I like the garden and all but I do not like that rule about not eating the fruit of that tree." Okay but notice when the son comes back from the city. The Father does not say "Sonare you now ready to accept my rules! If not leave." No He ran to greet him. I think the parable is clearly showing that although we as a human race and we as individuals have really messed up our lives and blew a good thing that God is still eagerly awaiting our return.

Think about God sitting there waiting and watching for us to come back to Him. And when He sees us He runs to us and grabs and hugs us. That sounds really cool to me. that is what I believe the parable is speaking about. God's grace and His desire for us to be saved. Tozer once said that "God is emotionally concerned about you." That is so awesome. The God of the universe is concerned about me. That kind of picture of God's grace and His love for us makes me believe that irresistable grace just could be possible for who would say no to such an awesome gesture.

BH6
 
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Amen to your return Christi...

On Topic: Looking at Hebrews chapter 10...if there remains no more sacrifice for sin...then if future sin loses us our salvation, we are all damned.

Which of us since our conversion has not sinned?

Does not Paul clearly say in Romans 7:20 "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. "
 
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Blackhawk

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Okay I think we all here believe that salvation is only possible because of God's grace and it is a gift of God right?

Ephesians 2:8,9
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

okay. then I came to this verse.

Romans 11
29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

in context it is speaking of God's covenant with the Isrealites. But also in Romans it shows that we are now the Isrealites because the promise to Abraham was not to his physical descendants but to his spiritual descendants.

Now it does not say some of God's gifts are irrevocable so i assuming it means all of them are. So I think this is just further evidence that God's gift of salvation is permanent and that no angel or man, including myself, can take it away.

Bh6
 
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Philippians 1:6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 1:13 In Him, you also after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ryrie's note: A seal indicates possession and security, The presence of the Holy Spirit, the seal, is the believer's guarantee of the security of his salvation.

Matthew Henry's commentary: We are said to be marked with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit. He makes us holy. He is the promised Spirit. By Him believers are sealed and set apart for God. The Spirit "is the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance". The deposit is part of payment, and it secures the full sum. All his influences are the beginning of heaven, glory in the seed and bud. His comforts are pledges of everlasting joys. He is said to be the deposit, "until the redemption of those who are God's possession." This deposit makes it as sure to the heirs as though they already possessed it; and it is purchased for them by the blood of Christ.


Regeneration takes time and indeed Christ will not accomplish it in any of us this side of the grave (or rapture as the case may be :) )

However, salvation is instant...the washing away of sins is instant (and permanent) else how could Christ say to the thief, this day you will be with me in paradise?

The washing of sins is preemptive (correct usage?) ...Hebrews clearly states that there remains no more sacrifice for sin...impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (6:6)

This at the very least means that simple sin cannot lose us our salvation since we all still sin, all would lose salvation, be unable to regain it; none would be saved and Christ's sacrifice would be for nothing.

I am also convinced that a true turning away by a true believer is impossible since the Spirit is in every true believer (and is there also to convict of sin) and will tax each son or daughter of God 'till he/she returns to the correct path. I see this in my own life.

Furthermore...it is my faith in Christ which saves me, not the fact that I have not sinned. We are able to sin without ever once losing our faith that He is able to save us. However, we then face the displeasure of the Spirit as well as bear the results (though not the consequences) of our sin.
 
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VOW

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To Pstroke:

This at the very least means that simple sin cannot lose us our salvation since we all still sin, all would lose salvation, be unable to regain it;

Just out of curiosity, where do you get the information that if salvation is lost, you don't have the ability to regain it?

The Catholic position is that Free Will is what obtains the Salvation (grace through faith makes it understood, Free Will accepts it), and that Free Will is not abolished upon Salvation. In other words, you can still screw up. The beauty of it is, though, we can always reconcile ourselves back with God.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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Hebrews 6:4-6 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame.
 
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Andrew

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A Christian cannot lose his salvation

First and foremost, we are talking about true-blue, born-again Christians. This statement, however, leads to a problem: How do we know if someone is truly born of God?

In some cases, it is really hard to tell and only God would know. We must also not expect overnight changes in the person and underestimate the work of the Holy Spirit. We need only ask ourselves how long we took to "produce fruit" to remember our own stubborness and our Lord's patience.

That said, let's deal first with easy scriptures that clearly support eternal security.

It is comforting to note that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all "play a part" in keeping us saved. We can call this triple protection!

The Father...

* John 10:29 -- My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

The Son...

* John 10:28 -- I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

A Christian might argue that he can "snatch" himself out of the Father's hand by wilfully renouncing Christ. But he forgets that "no one" in John 10:28,29 includes him! (See "Renouncing Christ".) Furthermore, Jesus said : "I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish." Common spiritual sense tells us that "eternal life" is not "eternal" if it can be cut off at some point. Also, "never" simply means never. It can't get any simpler than that!

Speaking of eternal life, it is given to us by God the moment we are born again. Eternal life does not begin after we die physically. As long as we have Christ in us, we have eternal life -- we are not waiting to get it someday.

* 1 John 5:12 -- He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

The Holy Spirit...

* 2 Corinthians 1:22 -- set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
* Ephesians 1:13 -- And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
* Ephesians 4:30 -- And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

The Holy Spirit in us is God's sonship seal and guarantee to us. Can God's seal be broken? Surely not! And God does not have to guarantee us anything -- His word alone is sufficient for He cannot lie. Yet, He gives us this double assurance of salvation!

Can sinning cause us to lose it?

The answer lies in this verse:

* Romans 5:19 -- For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Man is a sinner because of what Adam had done, not because he sins -- he sins because he has inherited Adam's sinful nature. Likewise, a Christian is righteous because of what Jesus Christ had done at the cross, not because he does good -- he does good because Christ is in him.

When we were sinners, our good deeds could not undo what Adam had done and make us righteous. Similarly, now that we are righteous, our bad deeds or sins cannot undo what Christ had done and make us unrighteous!

If we believe that the former is impossible but the latter, possible, then we are saying:

* Adam's work was superior to Christ's, when the opposite is true (Romans 5:15).
* Our sinning is more powerful than the perfect work and blood of Christ.
* The blood of bulls and goats in the Old Testament is more "potent" than the blood of Christ, since the former could atone for the sins of Israel for at least one year, but that the latter loses its effect the moment we sin.

Consider also that because of what Jesus Christ had accomplished on the cross, God is not even counting men's sins against them, let alone Christians!

* 2 Corinthians 5:19 -- that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
* Hebrews 10:17 -- Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

Predestination

Paul himself talks about eternal security in Romans.

* Romans 8:29,30 -- For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
* Ephesians 1:4-6,11 -- For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves....In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Predestination is beautiful because it says that God did not save us reluctantly. In fact, He did it in love and with pleasure! The very idea of predestination also presupposes that God knows beforehand. He is, afterall, omniscient. Those who believe that a born again Christian can lose his salvation should ask themselves if God could, in His perfect foreknowledge, predestinate persons "to be conformed to the image of his Son", knowing that they would eventually renounce Christ and lose their salvation (assuming that were possible). The very purpose of predestination and GodÕs perfect foreknowledge contradict that!

Note also the unbroken chain of events: predestinate -- called -- justified -- glorified. God will complete the process for every Christian, not just some! (See "He's faithful, not us".)

In a sense, Christians are already glorified in Christ Jesus, being seated with Him in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6). But there is more to come!

At the rapture, they will receive new imperishable bodies (1 Corinthians 15:52-54). There is also further glorification when the church is presented as the spotless bride to the Father by her bridegroom, Jesus Christ (Ephesians 5:27).

So, how can "them he also glorified" be completely true if believers can lose their salvation? And how can a "justified" Christian be unjustified and cast into hell?

Renouncing Christ

Christians who believe that salvation can be lost generally agree that there are many clear verses in the Bible that support eternal security. However, they draw the line when it comes to wilfully renouncing Christ. In other words, these same verses don't "cover" the Christian who decides to give up Christ.

But which true-blue, born-again Christian would, in his right mind, suddenly decide to renounce Christ? Surely it must be a temptation of the devil, a demonic influence. It cannot be a self-contained decision.

This being the case, let's suppose that the Christian does renounce Christ and lose his salvation. This would mean that the "demons" and "powers" responsible for influencing him have succeeded in seprating him from the love of God. This, however, is in direct contradiction to Romans 8:38,39!

* Romans 8:38,39 -- For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

He is faithful, not us

Many Christians think that after they are saved, they need to work at keeping their salvation, or they might lose it. This is really no different from trying to earn salvation, which can only be received by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8)!

Also, they are foolish to think that they have the power to "maintain" their salvation. It is God who "keeps" them saved! It is God who is always faithful, not them!

* Romans 14:4 -- Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
* 1 Corinthians 1:8 -- He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God who has called you into fellowship with his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, is faithful.
* 1 Corinthians 10:13 -- No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
* 2 Corinthians 1:21 -- Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ.
* 2 Thessalonians 3:3 -- But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.
* 2 Timothy 4:18 -- The Lord will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
* Hebrews 2:18 -- Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.
* Hebrews 7:25 -- Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
* Jude 1:24 -- To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy--
 
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VOW

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To Andrew:

* Romans 8:38,39 -- For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

God will always keep US, but we, of our Free Will, can turn away from God.



Many Christians think that after they are saved, they need to work at keeping their salvation, or they might lose it. This is really no different from trying to earn salvation, which can only be received by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8)!

Also, they are foolish to think that they have the power to "maintain" their salvation. It is God who "keeps" them saved! It is God who is always faithful, not them!

Your suppositions about "working to keep salvation" and "foolish to think" are in direct conflict with the teachings of the Catholic Church. While you are entitled to YOUR interpretations of Salvation, you may not denigrate the beliefs of others.

Discussion is fine; personal judgment ("foolish") is not.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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isshinwhat

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Galatians 5
1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
2 Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law.
4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.
5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love.
7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Notice here in verse 1, Paul is speaking to Christians, "true" ones who have been set free from their sins. He tells them not to submit AGAIN to a yoke of slavery. This means that they have been set free from their yoke of sin, they have died to them and risen in Christ.

In verse 2 Paul tells us that if we do submit to the yoke again, Christ will be of no use to us, going so far as to say that we will be severed from Christ. Notice here we are severed. That means at one time we were joined to Christ.

I find verse 4 the scariest of all. Here Paul tells us to beware, lest we fall from grace. How do we do fall? Chapter 6 answers this question. We have a faith that does not WORK through love (see also James 2:14-24).

Like VOW said, it is not anyone, not angels, nor Satan, who steals us from God's hand. We leave. We stop obeying the truth, as chapter 7 states. "...he who endures to the end will be saved." (Matthew 24:13)

In Christ,

Neal
 
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LouisBooth

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"In verse 2 Paul tells us that if we do submit to the yoke again, Christ will be of no use to us, going so far as to say that we will be severed from Christ. Notice here we are severed. That means at one time we were joined to Christ. "

*sigh* again context is needed here. We know and can assume this letter was written to the church at galitia due to a group of judizers that had recently been there saying they were of Peter. Paul systematically goes through and shows the error of this way of thinking first by asserting his authority to speak as a teacher and preacher of God's word. This passage is not ment to say you can fall away but that you should not go back to your old habits (as indicated by verse 2 jewish tradition of circumsion). What Paul is saying is that you are free and should live that way, not taht you can fall away from God. This is proven in many verses in Galatians Take 4:18-20 "If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a law-breaker (ie not a christian) For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God I have been crucifed with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me." He is saying (as the next verse further implies) that the law was "put to rest" by christs sacrifice so it can no longer "hurt or kill" the christian. OSAS stands firm ;)
 
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Originally posted by isshinwhat
Like VOW said, it is not anyone, not angels, nor Satan, who steals us from God's hand. We leave. We stop obeying the truth, as chapter 7 states. "...he who endures to the end will be saved." (Matthew 24:13)

In Christ,

Neal

I disagree. That quote from Matthew is not a condition in which we must work to "keep" ourselves saved. It is a description of true faith. A person who is truely born-again WILL endure to the end. Go to this link and listen to what Dr. MacArthur has to say on this very same subject from the Grace to You broadcast that aired today. It is entitled, "The Nature of Saving Faith" and it is excellent!

http://www2.oneplace.com/Ministries/Grace_to_You/
 
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