unfulfilled portions of Daniel

Symes · Nov 15, 2003

From the opening it is clear that the seventy weeks are not yet accomplished or else there would be an end to sin.

Actually there was an end to the sin problem. Jesus Christ was crucified on Calvary. That put an end to the reign of sin that had been since Adam and Eve had been put out of Eden.

This cutting off of the Messiah is said to happen after 69 weeks of years.

True, it would take place in the middle of the 70th week. Which it did.

In 458 BC, Artaxerxes gave permission for an offering to be collected and brought to the Temple where worship should be established. In none of these three decrees is there a specific mention of a "commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem", (presumably the city walls).

History records that it took place in 457 BC.

Daniel 9:24-27
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

We see from here that it is 69 weeks from the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the anointing of the Messiah. That was done in 27 AD. By working backwards you can check on the date to see if it was 457 or 458. Don't forget to take into account there is no year zero.

Now we see in Ezra that we can get the exact date.

Ezra 7:7,12-26
"7 Some of the Israelites, including priests, Levites, singers, gatekeepers and temple servants, also came up to Jerusalem in the seventh year of King Artaxerxes. 12 [1] Artaxerxes, king of kings,
To Ezra the priest, a teacher of the Law of the God of heaven: Greetings. 13 Now I decree that any of the Israelites in my kingdom, including priests and Levites, who wish to go to Jerusalem with you, may go. 14 You are sent by the king and his seven advisers to inquire about Judah and Jerusalem with regard to the Law of your God, which is in your hand. 15 Moreover, you are to take with you the silver and gold that the king and his advisers have freely given to the God of Israel, whose dwelling is in Jerusalem, 16 together with all the silver and gold you may obtain from the province of Babylon, as well as the freewill offerings of the people and priests for the temple of their God in Jerusalem. 17 With this money be sure to buy bulls, rams and male lambs, together with their grain offerings and drink offerings, and sacrifice them on the altar of the temple of your God in Jerusalem.
18 You and your brother Jews may then do whatever seems best with the rest of the silver and gold, in accordance with the will of your God. 19 Deliver to the God of Jerusalem all the articles entrusted to you for worship in the temple of your God. 20 And anything else needed for the temple of your God that you may have occasion to supply, you may provide from the royal treasury.
21 Now I, King Artaxerxes, order all the treasurers of Trans-Euphrates to provide with diligence whatever Ezra the priest, a teacher of the Law of the God of heaven, may ask of you- 22 up to a hundred talents [2] of silver, a hundred cors [3] of wheat, a hundred baths [4] of wine, a hundred baths [5] of olive oil, and salt without limit. 23 Whatever the God of heaven has prescribed, let it be done with diligence for the temple of the God of heaven. Why should there be wrath against the realm of the king and of his sons? 24 You are also to know that you have no authority to impose taxes, tribute or duty on any of the priests, Levites, singers, gatekeepers, temple servants or other workers at this house of God.
25 And you, Ezra, in accordance with the wisdom of your God, which you possess, appoint magistrates and judges to administer justice to all the people of Trans-Euphrates-all who know the laws of your God. And you are to teach any who do not know them. 26 Whoever does not obey the law of your God and the law of the king must surely be punished by death, banishment, confiscation of property, or imprisonment."

Read through all this and you will see that it is a very comprehensive order. All the things he was to do. It certainly fulfills what Daniel says in chapter 9:24-27.

It appears to be 477 years, not quite the 483 years we expect from 69 weeks of years (69 x 7 = 483).

He is dead set wrong. It is 483 years exact. Prophecy is either right or wrong. It is always right. You cannot have the Bible saying it is 483 years and then some so called scholar coming up with his own interpretation and using 477 years and trying to make allowances for this or that and saying it takes the place of 483. Come on lets get real about this. You want to take notice of what the Bible says or make your own rules up as you go along.

You are making something, so simple so complicated.

Luke 3:1-6
1"In the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar--when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, Herod tetrarch of Galilee, his brother Philip tetrarch of Iturea and Traconitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilene-- 2during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert. 3He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 4As is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet:
"A voice of one calling in the desert,
'Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.
5Every valley shall be filled in,
every mountain and hill made low.
The crooked roads shall become straight,
the rough ways smooth.
6And all mankind will see God's salvation."

This was 27 AD according to history which agrees with the start of the 69 week prophecy of 457 BC.

You go back to the previous chapter and again history shows that Jesus was born on time.

Luke 2:1-3
"In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. 2(This was the first census that took place while Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3And everyone went to his own town to register."

Jesus was then cut off in the midst of the 70th week.

Patmosman_sga · Nov 15, 2003

vunderbar said:
Yuck... preterist heresies. Show me where Daniel 9:27 was fulfilled, Patmosman. Show me where the great tribulation, return of the Lord, and establishing of the kingdom occurred at 70 A.D., Patmosman. And, if you are a "consistent preterist," than show me where resurrection occurred at 70 A.D.

The above snipet from your latest rant will suffice to demonstrate your obstinate refusal to consider any interpretation but your own. I have already said that the kingdom was established before the foundation of the world, was inaugurated in history through Christ's death and resurrection, is advancing now against the kingdoms of this world, and will be fully realized in the consummation of history. Why, then, do you continue to insist that I "prove" the validity of a position that I do not even subscribe to?

Even if I were to offer historical proof for the only above mentioned event which did take place in A.D. 70, the great tribulation, you would simply reject it because you do not understand what its purpose was. If, as you seem to believe, the purpose of the great tribulation is to usher Israel (according to the flesh) into a new "kingdom age," then such an event has obviously not happened. But if its purpose was to separate out of Israel (according to the flesh) the faithful remnant as the firstfruits of the New Covenant, then it can hardly be disputed that the events surrounding the fall of Jerusalem served that very purpose. In fact, throughout history, times of great revival have often been preceded by times of trial and testing, perhaps not as intense as the fall of Jerusalem, but certainly intense enough to harken back not only to A.D. 70, but indeed back to the cross itself, as a reminder that God is always at work effecting perfect redemption through suffering.

Again, I am left to ask, if Jesus rising from the dead is not enough, what further proof do you require?

vunderbar · Nov 15, 2003

me: Yuck... preterist heresies. Show me where Daniel 9:27 was fulfilled, Patmosman. Show me where the great tribulation, return of the Lord, and establishing of the kingdom occurred at 70 A.D., Patmosman. And, if you are a "consistent preterist," than show me where resurrection occurred at 70 A.D.

Patmosman: The above snipet from your latest rant will suffice to demonstrate your obstinate refusal to consider any interpretation but your own.

lol! This coming from a man who started hurling insults from the very get go...

"I never cease to be amazed by those who call themselves Christians who cannot understand something so simple. Ideological blindness is the only explanation I can come up with for the willingness of so many dispensationalists to twist this passage into a prophecy of a yet-to-come "Antichrist" establishing a "peace treaty" with Israel, rather than seeing it plainly for what it is: a prophecy of the coming of Christ to establish and inaugurate the New Covenant through his death and resurrection."

If you wimpy antis are going to start hurling insults from the get go, than don't be surprized when dispensationalists turn around and point out that your covenant spiritualizing nonsense is nothing more than apostate teaching. There was no great tribulation, return of the Lord, destruction of Antichrist and establishing of the kingdom at 70 A.D., Patmosman. Not according to Scripture, and not according to history.

Patmosman: I have already said that the kingdom was established before the foundation of the world, was inaugurated in history through Christ's death and resurrection, is advancing now against the kingdoms of this world, and will be fully realized in the consummation of history.

And I have already pointed out that such a view is purly unscriptural, unhistorical, and is in denial of the covenants.

Are you going to explain to me when and how Daniel 9:27 was fulfilled, Patmosman?

-Tim

Hitch · Nov 16, 2003

If you wimpy antis are going to start hurling insults from the get go, than don't be surprized when dispensationalists turn around and point out that your covenant spiritualizing nonsense is nothing more than apostate teaching. There was no great tribulation, return of the Lord, destruction of Antichrist and establishing of the kingdom at 70 A.D., Patmosman. Not according to Scripture, and not according to history.

LMAO I just love it when the 'literalist' claim Jesus got the timing of the tribulation wrong...

But then EVERY unambiguous passage relating to the timescale is wrong according to DF. The Resurrection cant be at the last day, the tribulation cant be in 'this generation' and the events of the Apocalypse cant be 'soon' nor 'at hand' in the lives of the very ones the latter was addressed to.

And of course this is always done in the name of holy literalism.

Hey v what SCRIPTURE say the tribulation will occur several thousand years after Jesus' generation?

Hey v what SCRIPTURE says the resurrection will be 1,000 years before the last day?

Hey v what Scripture reverses

Matt 12:28
28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
(KJV)

Ben_Hur · Nov 16, 2003

Symes said:
Actually there was an end to the sin problem.

The passage said an "end to sin," not an end to the "sin problem." I know that redefining the passage to imlpy that it means "sin problem" makes your theology work a little better, but I think "adding" words like that to the scripture is a bit dangerous. Just an observation....

Hitch · Nov 16, 2003

Ben_Hur said:
The passage said an "end to sin," not an end to the "sin problem." I know that redefining the passage to imlpy that it means "sin problem" makes your theology work a little better, but I think "adding" words like that to the scripture is a bit dangerous. Just an observation....

Well Ben to apply your definition to the passage history must abruptly end and he eternal state commence. Yet no one teaches that a complete and totall 'end of sin' will occur at or did occur at this point of history. Im sure you recall the rebellion at the end of the 1,000 years.

So this stark literilistic approach cannot be supported by Scripture, or common sense.

Its not hard to see that in the regicide the apostates could do no worse, and in Christ everlasting right standing with God is our gift, In two ways and end of sin is visible. Remember the constext is
Dan 9:24
, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and
(KJV)

The transgression Jesus spoke of so often historicly and parabolicly is the murder of God's servants and his Son.

Hitch

Symes · Nov 16, 2003

Dan 9:24
, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and
(KJV

That is exactly what happened. This would take place after the end of the 70 weeks. Read the enxt few verses and it will show that we are talking about an event that took place at the cross, "end of sins, and to make reconcilaition for iniquity" No other choice, it has to be the cross. Rconciliation for iniquity took place then, not at any other time.

vunderbar · Nov 18, 2003

Hitch: But then EVERY unambiguous passage relating to the timescale is wrong according to DF. . . . Hey v what Scripture reverses Matt 12:28 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Hitch,

You change the subject to "time texts" (which I address here: http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=3849&mesg_id=3900&page=2 ) and "kingdom of God is among you" (which I address here: http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=4010&mesg_id=4321&page=3 ), but you don't seem to want to prove to me when and how the final portions of Daniel's prophecies were fulfilled. Ramming home the "time text" issue to justify some sort of "invisible fulfillment" does little to prove anything. The Bible does not prophesy the invisible and unverifiable... which should be obvious to all is an idea which is absurd to the very core.

You also could explain to me why the ancient church didn't seem to notice any Man of Sin and Great Tribulation, didn't seem to notice any return of the Lord, and didn't seem to notice any establishing of the kingdom. These are important questions.

-Tim

Symes · Nov 18, 2003

You also could explain to me why the ancient church didn't seem to notice any Man of Sin

Paul noticed that the "mystery of iniquity doth already work" (2 Thes 2:7)

The great tribulation was at that stage not there, it was some time in the future. See Revelation 16. Can't get much worse tribulation than described there. That is still future. Although it may come much sooner thaan many think it will.

vunderbar · Nov 18, 2003

me: You also could explain to me why the ancient church didn't seem to notice any Man of Sin

Symes: Paul noticed that the "mystery of iniquity doth already work" (2 Thes 2:7)

True, but he also made clear that the revealing of the Man of Sin was yet future, and would follow the "taking out of the way" of the restrainer. Why the ancient church would fail to recognize such events, if in fact they occurred in the first century, is difficult for preterists to explain.

Symes: The great tribulation was at that stage not there, it was some time in the future. See Revelation 16. Can't get much worse tribulation than described there. That is still future. Although it may come much sooner thaan many think it will.

Agreed.

-Tim

Symes · Nov 19, 2003

but he also made clear that the revealing of the Man of Sin was yet future,

Click to expand...

TRUE, interesting subject.

Wills · Nov 19, 2003

vunderbar said:
True, but he also made clear that the revealing of the Man of Sin was yet future, and would follow the "taking out of the way" of the restrainer. Why the ancient church would fail to recognize such events, if in fact they occurred in the first century, is difficult for preterists to explain.

Agreed.

-Tim

How could the restrainer be the Christian church since the Church is so weak

it allows Gay bishops and cannot even use the scriptures to make it imposible to ban the name of Christ in various settings in a nation like the USA.. supposed to be a Christian nation.

The restrainer is far more powerful than that.

Ben_Hur · Nov 19, 2003

Wills said:
How could the restrainer be the Christian church since the Church is so weak

Are you saying the Holy Spirit is gone? Who/what is the restrainer in your view?

Wills said:
it allows Gay bishops and cannot even use the scriptures to make it imposible to ban the name of Christ in various settings in a nation like the USA.. supposed to be a Christian nation.

The restrainer is far more powerful than that.

Were there Christian persecutions going on before 70AD? I'm asking because I don't know. I thought the restrainer was for the Christian's benefit... So...the souls of those beheaded under the alter were...Jews? I mean I thought the destruction in 70AD affected Jews, not Christians...and the destruction in Rev sounds like it affects the church, which are Christians, not Jews....

These threads confuse me more than teach me anything....

But can't...stop....reading.....

vunderbar · Nov 20, 2003

Wills: How could the restrainer be the Christian church since the Church is so weak
it allows Gay bishops and cannot even use the scriptures to make it imposible to ban the name of Christ in various settings in a nation like the USA.. supposed to be a Christian nation.
The restrainer is far more powerful than that.

It could be the church because it could be referring to the special ministry of the Spirit during this age (John 7:37-39), which also includes regeneration and the presence of the Spirit in individual believers.

Another popular theory of the ancient church was that the restrainer was the Roman Empire, which would need to collapse, or reform, to allow the uprising of the ten horns and little horn. Today, however, that theory seems impossible.

-Tim

vunderbar · Nov 21, 2003

Here is why certain portions of Daniel's prophecies have not yet been fulfilled:

"You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome. The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, (present church age goes here) its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. This was the dream; now we will tell its interpretation before the king. You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory; and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold. After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth. Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces. (present church age goes here) In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay. As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle. And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery. In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take place in the future; so the dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy." - Daniel 2:31-45

"Daniel said, 'I was looking in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea. And four great beasts were coming up from the sea, different from one another. The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle. I kept looking until its wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man; a human mind also was given to it. And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and thus they said to it, 'Arise, devour much meat!' After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it. After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, (present church age goes here) and it had ten horns. While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts. I kept looking until thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow and the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, its wheels were a burning fire. A river of fire was flowing and coming out from before Him; thousands upon thousands were attending Him, and myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; the court sat, and the books were opened. Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time. I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; and His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.'
As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me. I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 'These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.' Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet, and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates. I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom. Thus he said: 'The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. (present church age goes here) As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'" - Daniel 7:2-27

"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. (present church age goes here) And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." - Daniel 9:24-27

-Tim

vunderbar · Nov 25, 2003

Yep, thats why.

-Tim

unfulfilled portions of Daniel

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