unfulfilled portions of Daniel

Status
Not open for further replies.

vunderbar

Active Member
Oct 31, 2003
135
2
48
Cleveland, Ohio
Visit site
✟7,775.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Here are important excerpts from Daniel 2, 7 and 9. The blue sections are yet to be fulfilled:

"You, O king, were looking and behold, there was a single great statue; that statue, which was large and of extraordinary splendor, was standing in front of you, and its appearance was awesome. The head of that statue was made of fine gold, its breast and its arms of silver, its belly and its thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. You continued looking until a stone was cut out without hands, and it struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and crushed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were crushed all at the same time and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away so that not a trace of them was found. But the stone that struck the statue became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. This was the dream; now we will tell its interpretation before the king. You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory; and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold. After you there will arise another kingdom inferior to you, then another third kingdom of bronze, which will rule over all the earth. Then there will be a fourth kingdom as strong as iron; inasmuch as iron crushes and shatters all things, so, like iron that breaks in pieces, it will crush and break all these in pieces. In that you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it will be a divided kingdom; but it will have in it the toughness of iron, inasmuch as you saw the iron mixed with common clay. As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle. And in that you saw the iron mixed with common clay, they will combine with one another in the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, even as iron does not combine with pottery. In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. Inasmuch as you saw that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands and that it crushed the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver and the gold, the great God has made known to the king what will take place in the future; so the dream is true and its interpretation is trustworthy." - Daniel 2:31-45

"Daniel said, 'I was looking in my vision by night, and behold, the four winds of heaven were stirring up the great sea. And four great beasts were coming up from the sea, different from one another. The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle. I kept looking until its wings were plucked, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man; a human mind also was given to it. And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and thus they said to it, 'Arise, devour much meat!' After this I kept looking, and behold, another one, like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it. After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts. I kept looking until thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow and the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, its wheels were a burning fire. A river of fire was flowing and coming out from before Him; thousands upon thousands were attending Him, and myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; the court sat, and the books were opened. Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time. I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; and His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.'
As for me, Daniel, my spirit was distressed within me, and the visions in my mind kept alarming me. I approached one of those who were standing by and began asking him the exact meaning of all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of these things: 'These great beasts, which are four in number, are four kings who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Highest One will receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, for all ages to come.' Then I desired to know the exact meaning of the fourth beast, which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful, with its teeth of iron and its claws of bronze, and which devoured, crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet, and the meaning of the ten horns that were on its head and the other horn which came up, and before which three of them fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth uttering great boasts and which was larger in appearance than its associates. I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom. Thus he said: 'The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'" - Daniel 7:2-27

"Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." - Daniel 9:24-27

The final portions of these prophetic outlines from Daniel are yet to be fulfilled.

-Tim
 

Wills

Active Member
Jul 24, 2003
286
0
✟416.00
Faith
Messianic
And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." - Daniel 9:24-27

The final portions of these prophetic outlines from Daniel are yet to be fulfilled.

----

Christ put an end to animal sacrifices etc by his crucifixion.

Jerusalem was made desolate in70AD, and is it surprising that Christ spoke that very word of warning..

The city of Jerusalem is made "desolate"
  • [size=-1]"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." Mt 23:38[/size]
  • [size=-1]"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. [/size]
It is over.
 
Upvote 0

Patmosman_sga

Active Member
Jun 17, 2002
375
3
59
Georgia
Visit site
✟783.00
Faith
Protestant
Wills said:
And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." - Daniel 9:24-27

The final portions of these prophetic outlines from Daniel are yet to be fulfilled.

----

Christ put an end to animal sacrifices etc by his crucifixion.

Jerusalem was made desolate in70AD, and is it surprising that Christ spoke that very word of warning..

The city of Jerusalem is made "desolate"
  • [size=-1]"Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." Mt 23:38[/size]
  • [size=-1]"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. [/size]
It is over.
I never cease to be amazed by those who call themselves Christians who cannot understand something so simple. Ideological blindness is the only explanation I can come up with for the willingness of so many dispensationalists to twist this passage into a prophecy of a yet-to-come "Antichrist" establishing a "peace treaty" with Israel, rather than seeing it plainly for what it is: a prophecy of the coming of Christ to establish and inaugurate the New Covenant through his death and resurrection.
 
Upvote 0

vunderbar

Active Member
Oct 31, 2003
135
2
48
Cleveland, Ohio
Visit site
✟7,775.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Wills: Christ put an end to animal sacrifices etc by his crucifixion.

Nope, because sacrifices continued up to 70 A.D. regardless of the cross. Christ empowering the New Covenant is not one and the same as God introducing New Covenant blessings to Israel. Israel does not enter into New Covenant blessings until the kingdom age (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Daniel 9:24), and that doesn't come until after the great tribulation (Daniel 7). Obviously, Israel did not enter into New Covenant blessings at the time of the cross.

Wills: Jerusalem was made desolate in70AD, and is it surprising that Christ spoke that very word of warning..
The city of Jerusalem is made "desolate"

Yep. What a nice prophecy of 70 A.D.

Wills: "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." Mt 23:38
"And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
It is over.

That is only half the story (Luke 21:24, Zechariah 14). Why do nondispensationalists only believe half of their Bible?

-Tim
 
Upvote 0

vunderbar

Active Member
Oct 31, 2003
135
2
48
Cleveland, Ohio
Visit site
✟7,775.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Patmosman,

By cutting all of the garbage out of your post, we end up with this:

Patmosman: ...a prophecy of the coming of Christ to establish and inaugurate the New Covenant through his death and resurrection.

Prove it.

While you're at it, prove that the kingdom came in the first century, and prove that Daniel 7 doesn't really place the start of the kingdom at the close of the great tribulation (which some erring brethren on this board place at 70 A.D.).

-Tim
 
Upvote 0

Symes

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2003
1,832
15
72
Visit site
✟2,069.00
Faith
Christian


"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."


This has been fulfilled. Christ was offered as our sacrifice in the midst of the week. Then the Jews had another 3 and half years of probation. It was at this time that Stephen was stoned and the gospel was then taken to the Gentiles to finish of the end of the week. A week in Bible prophecy is 7 years. 3.5 years of earthly ministry and then 3.5 years of further probation which the Jews rejected.

 
Upvote 0

Patmosman_sga

Active Member
Jun 17, 2002
375
3
59
Georgia
Visit site
✟783.00
Faith
Protestant
vunderbar said:
Prove it.
Jesus rose from the dead. What further proof do you require?

While you're at it, prove that the kingdom came in the first century, and prove that Daniel 7 doesn't really place the start of the kingdom at the close of the great tribulation (which some erring brethren on this board place at 70 A.D.).
The kingdom was established before the foundation of the world, was inaugurated in history with the death and resurrection of Jesus, is presently advancing against the kingdoms of this world by the patient endurance of the saints through trial and tribulation, and will be fully consummated, with Jesus himself being personally present in the midst of a fully redeemed creation, at the end of history. The significance of A.D. 70 cannot be understood apart from the decisive victory of God in Christ at Calvary. It was then that the Temple sacrificial system was rendered obsolete. The Temple's destruction merely reiterated this and brought to full realization the effect of Christ's death and resurrection upon the Old Covenant. As it took an entire generation for the full effect of the resurrection to be realized upon the Temple, so it will take the complete run of human history for its effect to be fully realized upon the whole of God's creation.
 
Upvote 0

Uzziah

Active Member
Sep 23, 2003
187
0
Sydney, Australia
✟7,807.00
Faith
Christian
This has been fulfilled. Christ was offered as our sacrifice in the midst of the week. Then the Jews had another 3 and half years of probation. It was at this time that Stephen was stoned and the gospel was then taken to the Gentiles to finish of the end of the week. A week in Bible prophecy is 7 years. 3.5 years of earthly ministry and then 3.5 years of further probation which the Jews rejected.

Prove there were 3.5 years from the death of Christ to the death of stephen.

Luk 13:6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
Luk 13:7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
Luk 13:8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

Seems to me Israel was only given one more year.

Uz
 
Upvote 0

Donny_B

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2003
570
3
North Carolina
✟740.00
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
"In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision." Daniel 10:1 KJV

The phrase in the KJV, "and the thing was true, but the time appointed was long", along with the phrase "and after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off" in Daniel 9:26 does give support for a gap in the 490 years prophecy.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

vunderbar

Active Member
Oct 31, 2003
135
2
48
Cleveland, Ohio
Visit site
✟7,775.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Hi Symes.

Symes: Christ was offered as our sacrifice in the midst of the week.

Where do you see Christ's sacrifice in the middle of the 70th week? I see Messiah "cut off" after the first 69 weeks, but nothing about his sacrifice in the middle of the 70th week.

It couldn't be the "put a stop to sacrifice in the midst of the week" statement. "Put a stop to sacrifice" has a particular meaning in the book of Daniel, and it is not the atoning work of the Savior. Note the following:

"Thus he said: 'The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.'" - Daniel 7:23-26

"Then the male goat magnified himself exceedingly. But as soon as he was mighty, the large horn was broken; and in its place there came up four conspicuous horns toward the four winds of heaven. Out of one of them came forth a rather small horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Beautiful Land. It grew up to the host of heaven and caused some of the host and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down. It even magnified itself to be equal with the Commander of the host; and it removed the regular sacrifice from Him, and the place of His sanctuary was thrown down. And on account of transgression the host will be given over to the horn along with the regular sacrifice; and it will fling truth to the ground and perform its will and prosper. Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, 'How long will the vision about the regular sacrifice apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?' He said to me, 'For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored.'" - Daniel 8:8-14

"Forces from him will arise, desecrate the sanctuary fortress, and do away with the regular sacrifice. And they will set up the abomination of desolation. By smooth words he will turn to godlessness those who act wickedly toward the covenant, but the people who know their God will display strength and take action. Those who have insight among the people will give understanding to the many; yet they will fall by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plunder for many days." - Daniel 11:31-33

"He said, 'Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand. From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age.'" - Daniel 12:9-13

Was there also an "abomination of desolation" at the midpoint of the week? Did Christ perform the abomination described in Daniel 9:27? How could Antiochus Epiphanes prefigure Christ's atoning work (compare Daniel 11:31 to 9:27)?

Symes: Then the Jews had another 3 and half years of probation. It was at this time that Stephen was stoned and the gospel was then taken to the Gentiles to finish of the end of the week.

But Steven's stoning came long before 70 A.D. The final "seven," according to Daniel 9, comes sometime after the destruction of the temple in 70 A.D.

"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate." - Daniel 9:26-27

So, it seems a break-up of the chronological flow of the prophecy will also be necessary in order to interpret v.27 as concerning Christ's ministry and sacrifice.

-Tim
 
Upvote 0

vunderbar

Active Member
Oct 31, 2003
135
2
48
Cleveland, Ohio
Visit site
✟7,775.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Patmosman: Jesus rose from the dead. What further proof do you require?

How does that prove Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled?

Patmosman: The kingdom was established before the foundation of the world, was inaugurated in history with the death and resurrection of Jesus, is presently advancing against the kingdoms of this world by the patient endurance of the saints through trial and tribulation, and will be fully consummated, with Jesus himself being personally present in the midst of a fully redeemed creation, at the end of history.

How could the kingdom have been established before the foundation of the world when Scripture traces its begining through Saul, David, Solomon, etc.? The Covenants form the foundation of kingdom teaching in Scripture, and it is this covenanted kingdom Christ came to establish (Matthew 1:1).

Patmosman: The significance of A.D. 70 cannot be understood apart from the decisive victory of God in Christ at Calvary. It was then that the Temple sacrificial system was rendered obsolete. The Temple's destruction merely reiterated this and brought to full realization the effect of Christ's death and resurrection upon the Old Covenant. As it took an entire generation for the full effect of the resurrection to be realized upon the Temple, so it will take the complete run of human history for its effect to be fully realized upon the whole of God's creation.

That is an interesting theory and all, but can you prove that Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled?

-Tim
 
Upvote 0

Symes

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2003
1,832
15
72
Visit site
✟2,069.00
Faith
Christian
Where do you see Christ's sacrifice in the middle of the 70th week? I see Messiah "cut off" after the first 69 weeks, but nothing about his sacrifice in the middle of the 70th week.
In Daniel 9:24
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people..."

Daniel 9:25,26
"....shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks...and after threescore and two weeks shall the Messiah be cut off..."

That tells us that the Jews had 70 weeks of probation. After 69 weeks the Messiah would be cut off in the middle of the last remaining week. We then have a total of 70 which is what verse 24 tells us took place.

At this time when Christ was crucified the temple curtain was ripped from top to bottom. Signifying an end the sacrificial system. Even if some Jews were still sacrificing animals, the system was over and out.



 
Upvote 0

vunderbar

Active Member
Oct 31, 2003
135
2
48
Cleveland, Ohio
Visit site
✟7,775.00
Faith
Non-Denom
me: Where do you see Christ's sacrifice in the middle of the 70th week? I see Messiah "cut off" after the first 69 weeks, but nothing about his sacrifice in the middle of the 70th week.

Symes: In Daniel 9:24
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people..."

That passage shows me that Israel does not enter into New Covenant blessings until the 70 weeks are completed. Not after 69 1/2, but after 70.

I do not see how v.24 justifies the opinion of an atoning sacrifice of Christ in the midst of the 70th week.

Symes: Daniel 9:25,26
"....shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks...and after threescore and two weeks shall the Messiah be cut off..."
That tells us that the Jews had 70 weeks of probation. After 69 weeks the Messiah would be cut off in the middle of the last remaining week.

It is doubtful that the cutting off of Messiah after the 69 weeks is the same event as the putting a stop to sacrifice in the middle of the 70th week.

First of all, such a position does not take into account the meaning of "put a stop to sacrifice" which is clearly given us in the book of Daniel. Why would it always mean a tyrant putting a stop to Israel's temple worship except for this particular instance in Daniel 9? That is inconsistent. If the book of Daniel is permitted to interpret the book of Daniel, than "put a stop to sacrifice" in Daniel 9:27 does not mean "perform an atoning sacrifice for sin rendering the Mosaic sacrificial system obselete." (Also, the 3 1/2 years would now concern the time from the cross to ???? instead of the time Antichrist wreaks havoc upon Israel (Daniel 7:25), and the abomination of desolation would mean ???? instead of a tyrant setting up an abomination of desolation as typified by Antiochus Epiphanes (Daniel 11:31). These are three major themes in Daniel 9:27 which are neglected by many interpretors.)

Secondly, it breaks up the chronological flow of the prophecy. You would have Gabriel specifically relating the events of the first 69 weeks, then giving general details about the sacrifice of Christ to follow, and also, for whatever reason, events of destruction in 70 A.D. (all in v.26). Then Gabriel, in v.27, would be jumping back again to the years surrounding Christ's sacrifice (27-33 A.D.?), and then again jumping forward to 70 A.D. for no apparent reason telling us about an abomination of desolation occurring in 70 A.D.? That is not a straightforward treatment of the prophecy. It is broken into nonchronological pieces which, in my opinion, are not warranted by the text.

Symes: At this time when Christ was crucified the temple curtain was ripped from top to bottom. Signifying an end the sacrificial system. Even if some Jews were still sacrificing animals, the system was over and out.

Yes, the tearing of the temple veil shows the significance of the blood of the New Covenant. It does not, however, indicate that Israel passes from Old to New Covenant blessings. That is not scheduled to occur until after the completion of the 70 weeks.

-Tim
 
Upvote 0

Symes

Well-Known Member
Nov 11, 2003
1,832
15
72
Visit site
✟2,069.00
Faith
Christian


Yes, the tearing of the temple veil shows the significance of the blood of the New Covenant. It does not, however, indicate that Israel passes from Old to New Covenant blessings. That is not scheduled to occur until after the completion of the 70 weeks.

-Tim
Where do you get that idea from?

The everlasting covenant or the new covenant was made long before the so called first covenant was made with the Children of Israel. It was made with Abraham. The covenant made with the Children of Israel failed because they said "all that the Lord has said we will do"

They could not do anything, they failed because they thought they could do it. God through the spilt blood of Jesus Christ is our only source of strength and hope.


 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

vunderbar

Active Member
Oct 31, 2003
135
2
48
Cleveland, Ohio
Visit site
✟7,775.00
Faith
Non-Denom
me: Yes, the tearing of the temple veil shows the significance of the blood of the New Covenant. It does not, however, indicate that Israel passes from Old to New Covenant blessings. That is not scheduled to occur until after the completion of the 70 weeks.

Symes: Where do you get that idea from?

Where do I get the idea that Israel does not enter into New Covenant blessings until the completion of the 70 weeks? I get it from the Daniel 9 prophecy, first of all (v.24). I get it from the fact that Daniel's prophecies outline God's dealings with Old Covenant Israel (Mosaic age) up until its completion at the close of the great tribulation, return of the Lord, and destruction of Antichrist and establishing of the kingdom (Daniel 2, 7, 9). I get it from the fact that Israel does not enter into New Covenant blessings until the kingdom age (Jeremiah 31:34, 32:40, Ezekiel 20:37, 34:23-26, Daniel 9:24, Hosea 2:14-20). I get it from the fact that prophecy concerning the great tribulation does not describe New Covenant blessings between God and Israel (Zechariah 13:7-9).

Symes: The everlasting covenant or the new covenant was made long before the so called first covenant was made with the Children of Israel. It was made with Abraham. The covenant made with the Children of Israel failed because they said "all that the Lord has said we will do"

The New Covenant was made with Abraham? No, the Abrahamic Covenant was made with Abraham. The fact that a "New Covenant" would replace the "Old Covenant" (Mosaic Law), was first made plain through the prophet Jeremiah (Hebrews 8:7-13), and was enabled through the work of Christ (Hebrews 9:12).

They could not do anything, they failed because they thought they could do it. God through the spilt blood of Jesus Christ is our only source of strength and hope.

I agree.

-Tim
 
Upvote 0

Patmosman_sga

Active Member
Jun 17, 2002
375
3
59
Georgia
Visit site
✟783.00
Faith
Protestant
vunderbar said:
How does that prove Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled?
All prophecies ultimately point to Christ and the resurrection. No prophecy can be understood without seeing Jesus' death and resurrection as the decisive act of God in human history.




How could the kingdom have been established before the foundation of the world when Scripture traces its begining through Saul, David, Solomon, etc.?
Because Jesus said it was: "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you before the foundation of the world (Matthew 25:34b). Paul concurs: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him" (Ephesians 1:3-4).





That is an interesting theory and all, but can you prove that Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled?
The Church is living PROOF that the whole of the law and the prophets is fulfilled in Christ. We are the embodiment of the hope of creation and the ongoing fulfillment of the eschatological kingdom which is and shall be the final outcome and consummation of history.
 
Upvote 0

vunderbar

Active Member
Oct 31, 2003
135
2
48
Cleveland, Ohio
Visit site
✟7,775.00
Faith
Non-Denom
me: How does that prove Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled?

Patmosman: All prophecies ultimately point to Christ and the resurrection.

No, most prophecies point to Christ's glorious coming and establishing of the kingdom. Why else would Jews overlook a suffering Messiah and two advents?

No prophecy can be understood without seeing Jesus' death and resurrection as the decisive act of God in human history.

I will ask you again, Patmosman. Show me when and how Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled.

If you can't make a good case for your interpretation, than perhaps you should hesitate to say things like "I never cease to be amazed by those who call themselves Christians who cannot understand something so simple. Ideological blindness is the only explanation I can come up with for the willingness of so many dispensationalists to twist this passage into a prophecy of a yet-to-come 'Antichrist' establishing a 'peace treaty' with Israel, rather than seeing it plainly for what it is."

me: How could the kingdom have been established before the foundation of the world when Scripture traces its begining through Saul, David, Solomon, etc.?

Patmosman: Because Jesus said it was: "Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you before the foundation of the world (Matthew 25:34b).

Just because the kingdom is part of God's eternal purpose does not mean the kingdom age existed from Genesis 1:1 thru to present. Such a notion is in complete denial of the covenants...... the very foundation of kingdom teaching in Scripture.

Paul concurs: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him" (Ephesians 1:3-4).

Same thing. The Bible traces the kingdom back no earlier than Saul, and the Davidic Covenant is a defining feature of God's Anointed (Matthew 1:1).

me: That is an interesting theory and all, but can you prove that Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled?

Patmosman: The Church is living PROOF that the whole of the law and the prophets is fulfilled in Christ. We are the embodiment of the hope of creation and the ongoing fulfillment of the eschatological kingdom which is and shall be the final outcome and consummation of history.

There is no proof whatsoever that Israel has suffered through the great tribulation and entered into the kingdom age.

-Tim
 
Upvote 0

Patmosman_sga

Active Member
Jun 17, 2002
375
3
59
Georgia
Visit site
✟783.00
Faith
Protestant
vunderbar said:
No, most prophecies point to Christ's glorious coming and establishing of the kingdom. Why else would Jews overlook a suffering Messiah and two advents?



I will ask you again, Patmosman. Show me when and how Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled.

If you can't make a good case for your interpretation, than perhaps you should hesitate to say things like "I never cease to be amazed by those who call themselves Christians who cannot understand something so simple. Ideological blindness is the only explanation I can come up with for the willingness of so many dispensationalists to twist this passage into a prophecy of a yet-to-come 'Antichrist' establishing a 'peace treaty' with Israel, rather than seeing it plainly for what it is."
I stand by my original statement. I do not presume myself to be more powerful or persuasive than Christ himself. If his resurrection is not proof enough for you that he is the fulfillment of all the prophecies, then I hardly think it is possible for me to do so. Jesus rose from the dead, the Temple was rendered obsolete, and within one generation the Temple was destroyed and Jerusalem made desolate. I ask again, what further proof do you require?




Just because the kingdom is part of God's eternal purpose does not mean the kingdom age existed from Genesis 1:1 thru to present. Such a notion is in complete denial of the covenants...... the very foundation of kingdom teaching in Scripture.
I never said the kingdom "age" began with Genesis 1:1. I said the kingdom itself has been established before the foundation of the world. The kingdom "age," if you wish to use such a term, was inaugurated with the death and resurrection of Jesus.




Same thing. The Bible traces the kingdom back no earlier than Saul, and the Davidic Covenant is a defining feature of God's Anointed (Matthew 1:1).
The "kingdom" that began with Saul and reached its zenith with David was a temporal, earthly kingdom which, like everything associated with the Old Covenant, was only a shadow of the kingdom to come. Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world." It is an eternal kingdom which is not constrained by "ages" or "dispensations."

There is no proof whatsoever that Israel has suffered through the great tribulation and entered into the kingdom age.
The "kingdom age" for the Old Testament Israel is past! That was the temporal kingdom (Saul, David) referred to above. (Why is it that "dispensational futurists" are so enamored with the past?) Jesus ushered in the kingdom of God and confirmed the New Covenant through the ordeal of his own suffering, death, and resurrection. The true Israel of God consists of all who follow Christ and share with him in his sufferings, becoming like him in death, and finally attaining with him and in him the resurrection from the dead.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

vunderbar

Active Member
Oct 31, 2003
135
2
48
Cleveland, Ohio
Visit site
✟7,775.00
Faith
Non-Denom
me: No, most prophecies point to Christ's glorious coming and establishing of the kingdom. Why else would Jews overlook a suffering Messiah and two advents?

No response? Do you agree with this, Patmosman?

me: I will ask you again, Patmosman. Show me when and how Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled.

No response? Do you plan on showing me when and how Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled, Patmosman?

me: If you can't make a good case for your interpretation, than perhaps you should hesitate to say things like "I never cease to be amazed by those who call themselves Christians who cannot understand something so simple. Ideological blindness is the only explanation I can come up with for the willingness of so many dispensationalists to twist this passage into a prophecy of a yet-to-come 'Antichrist' establishing a 'peace treaty' with Israel, rather than seeing it plainly for what it is."

Patmosman: I stand by my original statement. I do not presume myself to be more powerful or persuasive than Christ himself. If his resurrection is not proof enough for you that he is the fulfillment of all the prophecies, then I hardly think it is possible for me to do so. Jesus rose from the dead, the Temple was rendered obsolete, and within one generation the Temple was destroyed and Jerusalem made desolate. I ask again, what further proof do you require?

Yuck... preterist heresies. Show me where Daniel 9:27 was fulfilled, Patmosman. Show me where the great tribulation, return of the Lord, and establishing of the kingdom occurred at 70 A.D., Patmosman. And, if you are a "consistent preterist," than show me where resurrection occurred at 70 A.D.

You said that I probably was not a Christian, that my "blindness" was keeping me from seeing the "real" meaning of the Daniel 9 prophecy, and other such nonsense. Are you going to defend these ridiculous charges with a sound Scriptural exposition of Daniel 9:27, or are you going to apologize for your nonsense?

me: Just because the kingdom is part of God's eternal purpose does not mean the kingdom age existed from Genesis 1:1 thru to present. Such a notion is in complete denial of the covenants...... the very foundation of kingdom teaching in Scripture.

Patmosman: I never said the kingdom "age" began with Genesis 1:1. I said the kingdom itself has been established before the foundation of the world.

Same difference.

Patmosman: The kingdom "age," if you wish to use such a term, was inaugurated with the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Wrong. The New Covenant was empowered through Christ's work. That is far different from the idea that Israel passed from Old to New Covenant blessings at the time of the cross.

Now show me where New Covenant blessings came to Israel prior to the great tribulation. If Christ's sacrifice actually put the New Covenant into force with Israel, than Israel entered into New Covenant blessings prior to the great tribulation. Show me the Bible verses which teach such a thing.

me: Same thing. The Bible traces the kingdom back no earlier than Saul, and the Davidic Covenant is a defining feature of God's Anointed (Matthew 1:1).

Patmosman: The "kingdom" that began with Saul and reached its zenith with David was a temporal, earthly kingdom which, like everything associated with the Old Covenant, was only a shadow of the kingdom to come.

Okay, than Matthew was mistaken in Matthew 1:1.

Patmosman: Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world."

Oh boy, not this "proof text" again. You do realize that your interpretation of that passage would result in alien disciples from another planet, don't you? (John 17:14, 16)

By the way, that sort of "language" to describe the kingdom was quite common among the strict premillennialists of the ancient church:

"And when you hear that we look for a kingdom, you suppose, without making any inquiry, that we speak of a human kingdom; whereas we speak of that which is with God, as appears also from the confession of their faith made by those who are charged with being Christians, though they know that death is the punishment awarded to him who so confesses. For if we looked for a human kingdom, we should also deny our Christ, that we might not be slain; and we should strive to escape detection, that we might obtain what we expect. But since our thoughts are not fixed on the present, we are not concerned when men cut us off; since also death is a debt which must at all events be paid." - Justin Martyr, First Apology, ch.11
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-46.htm#P3593_620967

Of course, such statements are not "non-premillennial" in nature, for we elsewhere find Justin Martyr saying the following:

And Trypho to this replied, "I remarked to you sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies?" Then I answered, "I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. . . . But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare." - Justin Martyer, Dialogue with Trypho, ch.80
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm#P4043_787325

Patmosman: It is an eternal kingdom which is not constrained by "ages" or "dispensations."

It is a kingdom which finds its defining features in the covenants. Care to prove that the covenants don't really mean what they say, Patmosman?

me: There is no proof whatsoever that Israel has suffered through the great tribulation and entered into the kingdom age.

Patmosman: he "kingdom age" for the Old Testament Israel is past! That was the temporal kingdom (Saul, David) referred to above. (Why is it that "dispensational futurists" are so enamored with the past?) Jesus ushered in the kingdom of God and confirmed the New Covenant through the ordeal of his own suffering, death, and resurrection.

Care to show me where the Bible teaches any such thing, Patmosman?

Patmosman: The true Israel of God consists of all who follow Christ and share with him in his sufferings, becoming like him in death, and finally attaining with him and in him the resurrection from the dead.

The "true Israel"? Quit with the covenantalist assumptions and start proving things to me with Scripture, Patmosman.

-Tim
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.