I believe that the 3 series of judgments are concurrent, has anyone else studied and/or believes this view. Also what are your opinions on the 7 thunderers. Peace, but not yet.
The seals, trumpets, bowls of Revelation, are they consecutive are concurrent?
- Thread starter MARANATHA2002
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Hi Maranatha. I don't mean to open a can of worms with you, but the Bible itself proofs that the 7 trumpets, have already sounded. Lest look at scripture. But in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound the mystery of God would be finished, as He deciared to His servants the prophets (Revelation 10:7)
Notice here that it says when the mystery of God would be finished so would be the sounding of the seventh trumpet. Well according to the inspired Apostle Paul the mystery that had been hidding from the ages and
generations, was now is made manifest to his saints(Clossians 1:26; Ephesians 3:3; 6:19) Now if Paul says the mystery was now revealed to him, the 7 trumpet according to Revelation has already sounded over 2.000 years ago.
I know you will not agree however that is what the Bible says.
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Hmmmm. Interesting Observation Manifestation. I think however, that it is rather impossible that the first 6 trumptes have already occured because one for example is the diming of the sun. The Sun, the Moon and all the stars in the universe will lose A Third of their light (Rev. 8:10, 11), and surely at least Roman History records would have recorded such an event. Further, if you examine the context of Colossians 1:26, Paul is the mystery of Christ, not the one that is reffered to in Revelation 10:7. That's what I think at least.
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I have studied this a great deal. If you look at Rev 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
This shows the seven trumpet bearing angels after the seventh seal, so the trumpets are after the seals, not at the same time.
However, the trumpets and vials (to me) seem to be happening ALMOST at the same time, we see a trumpet sound and shortly we see a vial poured out, second trumpet, then shortly the second vial etc. It appears to me that the vials are a worsening of the trumpet judgments, not seperate judgments that occur as a whole after all the trumpets have sounded. When you compare the events that happen after the trumpets with those which occur after the vials they just seem to go together.
I've also learned that if you begin discussing whether these things are past or future that is where the discussion will end and you'll never find the answer to the question you asked, ie in what order do the things occur. On this bulletin board you must insist on sticking to the topic and not let the thread develop into yet another discussion of preterism vs premillennialism.
Rev 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
This shows the seven trumpet bearing angels after the seventh seal, so the trumpets are after the seals, not at the same time.
However, the trumpets and vials (to me) seem to be happening ALMOST at the same time, we see a trumpet sound and shortly we see a vial poured out, second trumpet, then shortly the second vial etc. It appears to me that the vials are a worsening of the trumpet judgments, not seperate judgments that occur as a whole after all the trumpets have sounded. When you compare the events that happen after the trumpets with those which occur after the vials they just seem to go together.
I've also learned that if you begin discussing whether these things are past or future that is where the discussion will end and you'll never find the answer to the question you asked, ie in what order do the things occur. On this bulletin board you must insist on sticking to the topic and not let the thread develop into yet another discussion of preterism vs premillennialism.
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The reason I believe that the judgments are concurrent. And what I believe is the key to understanding my conclusion, is the placement of the sixth seal in the time frame of the tribulation. I believe from scripture that the sixth seal happens at the very end of the tribulation. Lets read it together and see if we see the same conclusion.
REVELATION 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
As we see from verses 15-17, this is describing the very end of the tribulation, as CHRIST is returning to the earth. Now if we agree that the sixth seal happens at the end of the tribulation as described, why is there a need for the judgments of the trumpets and the bowls after CHRIST has returned. I believe that we can concur that the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments happen in the time frame of the 7 year tribulation. Try a study of these 3 series of judgments. placing the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet, and the 7th bowl of wrath, happening around the same time frame. The REVELATION describes 3 earthquakes. The concurrent view would make these earthquakes the same event. Peace, but not yet.
REVELATION 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
As we see from verses 15-17, this is describing the very end of the tribulation, as CHRIST is returning to the earth. Now if we agree that the sixth seal happens at the end of the tribulation as described, why is there a need for the judgments of the trumpets and the bowls after CHRIST has returned. I believe that we can concur that the seal, trumpet, and bowl judgments happen in the time frame of the 7 year tribulation. Try a study of these 3 series of judgments. placing the 7th seal, the 7th trumpet, and the 7th bowl of wrath, happening around the same time frame. The REVELATION describes 3 earthquakes. The concurrent view would make these earthquakes the same event. Peace, but not yet.
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rollinTHUNDER
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Hello MARANATHA2002,
WOW !! I love your handle !!
I believe that there are short gaps in between the judgments. I have studied it several times, but I would admit that I never really thought about it that much, mainly because I don't plan on being around to witness God's anger, or wrath. But it does appear that even though God is pouring out His anger, it is carefully measured and consecutive. And I believe that He is still displaying His loving mercy shortly after each judgment, and still offering His salvation. But this group must pay with their own blood, and I believe the ones that do accept His offer in these judgments are the 5 foolish virgins spoken of in Matt.25. They are being purified as gold in the hot fire, which makes me thankful that I accepted His offer while it was still free. See ya
WOW !! I love your handle !!
I believe that there are short gaps in between the judgments. I have studied it several times, but I would admit that I never really thought about it that much, mainly because I don't plan on being around to witness God's anger, or wrath. But it does appear that even though God is pouring out His anger, it is carefully measured and consecutive. And I believe that He is still displaying His loving mercy shortly after each judgment, and still offering His salvation. But this group must pay with their own blood, and I believe the ones that do accept His offer in these judgments are the 5 foolish virgins spoken of in Matt.25. They are being purified as gold in the hot fire, which makes me thankful that I accepted His offer while it was still free. See ya
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This is a little exercise I did while studying these things. Assume for a moment that trumpets and vials happen at the same time, and that if a certain judgement is said to last for a duration assume all the same judgments last the same amount of time unless we are specificly told otherwise. I believe that by doing things like this we can predict fairly close to when these things happen during the seven year period.
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I believe all three happen not at the same time ...notice that the 144,000 are the representatives of Israel ...God's people choosen to preach all over the world, or whats left after each of the first two judgements...also note that after that second judgement its impossible for anyone to come to know the lord, for the lord has proven He is who He is and those not saved in the tribulation period by the 144,000 are goners...
Not to mention that after that second the unbelievers will find it impossible to die to excape the wrath of God...and knowing and cursing the true God.....
Those left behind and that did not take the mark will subcomb to the wrathe of the anti-christ and become marytrs or excape the anti-christ I believe hopefully by faith in the Lord...and the mana from heaven ie: God will provide...and be around for the 1000 yr reign of Jesus Christ's kingdom....along with possibly the return of those marytered during the tribulation period....
my .02 cents worth
Not to mention that after that second the unbelievers will find it impossible to die to excape the wrath of God...and knowing and cursing the true God.....
Those left behind and that did not take the mark will subcomb to the wrathe of the anti-christ and become marytrs or excape the anti-christ I believe hopefully by faith in the Lord...and the mana from heaven ie: God will provide...and be around for the 1000 yr reign of Jesus Christ's kingdom....along with possibly the return of those marytered during the tribulation period....
my .02 cents worth
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I'm thinking they are consecutive. *shrugs* With a break in the middle there that explains the whole thing from Christ till the last.
I made it a whole other thread because thre are so many different views and such.
I made it a whole other thread because thre are so many different views and such.
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The question I guess I am asking is, if the sixth seal happens at the very end of the tribulation, as REVELATION 6:12-17 states. How can the trumpets and bowls follow in the 7 year time frame. Is the consecutive view stating, that the trumpets and bowls will happen after the return of CHRIST? Peace, but not yet.
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I'm not aware of anyone who believes that the judgments continue after Christ returns on the White horse. We see some of the judgments carry all the way through to the end of the tribulation period so even if the sixth seal includes the return of Christ on the white horse it doesn't necessarily follow that the seal was opened at the same time as the sixth trumpet sounds or that the sixth vial is poured out.
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