Did Jesus come as God or as a human being?

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Jesus can NEVER be "God in the flesh." "

You're wrong ed, John chapter 1 clearly shows he is. Along with that Phil 2:5-8 shows Jesus was God and came down to dwell among us. Then in Col 2:8 it says all the fulliness of the diety dwelt in Christ (ie he was God).

Apostle John wrote: "No one has seen God at any time" (John 1:18; 1 John 4:12). Yet you say that John chapter 1 says Jesus is God! How could apostle John have wrote in John chapter 1 that Jesus is God when in the same chapter and in his first letter, he says that "NO ONE (that must include him) has SEEN God at ANY time?"

How can Jesus be "God in the flesh" when Jesus himself SAID that "God is SPIRIT" and does NOT have FLESH and bones like he has? If Jesus were "God in the flesh," are you suggesting that Jesus was telling a LIE when he SAID that "God is SPIRIT?"

"Jesus says "GOD is SPIRIT" (John 4:24"

This verse is in context refering to worship, not exsistance. I suggest you read context before ripping a meaning out of the verse ed. IE taking it out of context.

Of course this verse is referring to worship Louis. But this does NOT alter then TRUTH that God the Father is SPIRIT and that's the reason why TRUE worshippers MUST worship the Father in spirit and in truth (John 4:23).

Verse 23 tells us that the FATHER is seeking TRUE worshippers to worship him in spirit and in truth. Verse 24 tells us that God is SPIRIT and those who worship Him MUST worship in spirit and in truth. Verse 24 seems to be telling us the reason why the FATHER seeks true worshippers to worship Him in spirit and in truth is because God is SPIRIT.

Ed

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Originally posted by LouisBooth
"How could apostle John have wrote in John chapter 1 that Jesus is God when in the same chapter and in his first letter, he says that "NO ONE (that must include him) has SEEN God at ANY time?" "

Ed, I have proven you wrong many many times even on this subejct. Did you want me to do it again? John clearly says Christ is God in chapter 1. To not believe that is just being unscholarly and not reading the words in black and white but in your own little world of illogical reasoning.

John 1:1 DOES NOT clearly identify Jesus as God. Is it illogical for apostle John to have written that "NO ONE (including him) has ever SEEN God at ANY TIME." No, because apostle John NEVER believed that Jesus is God.

If apostle John BELIEVED that Jesus is God, he would have written thus in John 1:1: "In the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God and Jesus was God." And in John 1:14, apostle John could have written: "And the God Jesus BECAME the MAN Jesus."

Still, it would NOT be illogical or unscholarly to think that the God Jesus NO LONGER exists because it has BECOME the MAN Jesus. The Bible does NOT say, "the word BECAME flesh and spirit or MAN and GOD."

"Of course this verse is referring to worship Louis. "

So you agree with me when I say you rip the verse out of context and twist it to mean what you want it to mean?

Is this how you interpret the above sentence Louis? This only shows your propensity to TWIST anything to prove your point.

To take your words out of context, as you do to God, let me use your words to answer my pervious question..."TRUE "

This was my ansswer in full Louis:

"Of course this verse is referring to worship Louis. But this does NOT alter then TRUTH that God the Father is SPIRIT and that's the reason why TRUE worshippers MUST worship the Father in spirit and in truth (John 4:23).

Verse 23 tells us that the FATHER is seeking TRUE worshippers to worship him in spirit and in truth. Verse 24 tells us that God is SPIRIT and those who worship Him MUST worship in spirit and in truth. Verse 24 seems to be telling us the reason why the FATHER seeks true worshippers to worship Him in spirit and in truth is because God is SPIRIT."

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As you can see Louis, whatever the context is, the TRUTH remains that "God is SPIRIT" and that's the reason why the Father SEEKS true worshippers to worship Him in SPIRIT and in TRUTH.

Ed

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Originally posted by Apologist
Unbelieveable how people can twist scripture to fit their preconceived theologically heretical beliefs.

How right you are my friend! FYI,heresy is teaching or believing something that is AGAINST the TRUTH. The Bible is the TRUTH (John 17:17) and Jesus is the TRUTH (John 14:6). Jesus says he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3).

Hence, the TRUTH is, Jesus is MAN not God, and therefore, the TRINITY and DEITY of Jesus are HERETICAL beliefs!

Now, look at some verses that people TWIST to fit their preconceived theologically heretical belief of the TRINITY and DEITY of Jesus:

John 1:1: The Bible says "the WORD was God". Trinitarians TWIST this verse to make it say, "Jesus was God."

John 1:18: The Bible says "NO ONE has ever SEEN God at ANY time." Trinitarians TWIST this verse to make it say, "NO ONE has ever SEEN God at ANY time referring to the pre-incarnate nature of Jesus."

1 John 4:2: The Bible says "Jesus has COME in the flesh." Triniarians TWIST this verse to make it say, "Jesus CAME as God AND man."

And many more verses that would make apostle Paul look like he wrote one thing to one group and wrote the opposite of the same thing to other groups.

Ed, why don't you call a good seminary and discuss the original Greek with a scholar so that he can show you how terrible that TEV version you are wasting your time with is. Rightly did Blaise Pascal say: "Truth is so obscure in these times and falsehood so established, that unless we love the truth, we cannot know it."

Please show me why you think the TEV is a terrible version. The KJV and NKJV talk of a "Godhead" referring to God, but the Old Testament of the sme version NEVER talks of a "Godhead." It was NOT "Godhead" that created the world and man. And look at how rotten the NIV translation of John 1:18 is. It makes Jesus "God, the one and only" who sits at the Father's side. If Jesus is God, the one and only, WHAT is the Father then?

Yes, truth is so obscure and falsehood so established for the last 1600 years, that unless we TRULY seek the TRUTH, we cannot know it.

Ed

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Originally posted by PrinceJeff
"Let us make man in OUR image". If only the father is God and nobody ascended to Heaven yet, then who is he talking to Ed?

Most professing Christians PRESUME that it was Jesus and the Holy Spirit whom God (the Father) was talking to when he said "Let us make man in our image."

However, there is NOTHING in the Bible to indicate that the SAME God (the Father) who SPOKE was helped in the creation by the son and the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:1-26). Thus, the Father ALONE created the world.

Was God (the Father) talking to Jesus or to himself?

The ONLY recorded account of someone other than God who was in heaven at that time is Gen. 3:24 where God placed CHERUBIMS or winged creatures at the east of Eden after the fall of Adam.

Thus, it is Biblical to PRSUME that God was talking to CHERUBIMS when he said, "Let us make man in or image."

Ed

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Originally posted by Karen123
Hi edpobre.

How odd for me to come here. I was just on another site discussing the Trinity and this is the first thread I read and one of the first posts! Quite coincidental since I haven’t written on here in days!

Anyhow you mentioned,

Hence, the TRUTH is, Jesus is MAN not God, and therefore, the TRINITY and DEITY of Jesus are HERETICAL beliefs!

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Although a man, Jesus has made it quite clear he IS God. John 10:30: “I and my father are one”. Therefore, even if you say the Father is the only God (as you mentioned) would mean Jesus would be referring to himself as well, because they are one as He states.

If it is TRUE that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3), then there is NO WAY that John 10:30 would make Jesus God.

First, the verse does NOT specifically state that Jesus and the FATHER are ONE "God". The word "God" is an ADDITION to the verse that God does NOT allow anyone to do. Trinitarians want Jesus and the Father to be one God. Thus, they ADD God AFTER the sentence to TWIST the verse to FIT their FALSE Trinity belief.

Second, the FACT that John 17:3 is TRUE (thus making the FATHER the ONLY TRUE God), should warn the Bible student NOT to think that the phrase "I and the Father are ONE" makes Jesus ALSO God IN ADDITION to the Father.

Jesus is both man and 100% God at the same time. It boggles your mind huh? I can see how you might get caught on that though. I’ve heard someone else mention think that too. Due to this verse:

John 14:28 Jesus says “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.”

Your probably thinking… SEE he IS saying the Father is greater! BUT wait, in addition to John 10:30 where Jesus says “I and the Father are one”…read this…

"Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be EQUAL with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross"(Philippians 2:5-8).

If He were not God, how could He "not consider it robbery to be equal with God"?
This verse clearly reflects that Jesus is equal with God.
In addition, Jesus is claiming to be God here as well, because one can not BE EQUAL with God unless one IS God.

So now your probably confused because John 14:28 is saying the Father is Greater than I (first quote mentioned above) but then there’s these other verses that say Jesus IS God (John 10:30) and so hence is of coarse is equal with God, as mentioned in Philippians 2:5-8.

It appears these two verses don’t go together, but we know they DO if the Bible is true in it’s entirety, right? And I believe it is.

If the Bible is TRUE in it's entirety, then, YOUR interpretation of what John 10:30 and Phil 2:5-8 mean is FALSE. Consider:

1)Jesus says "my FATHER is GREATER than I" (John 14:28). "Greater than" is definitely NOT "equal to". Right?

2)Jesus says "I and the Father are ONE" (John 10:30). Jesus ALSO says that "the FATHER is the ONLY true God" (John 17:3). You say the Bible is TRUE in its entirety. Your interpretation of John 10:30 that makes Jesus ALSO God would make Jesus a LIAR because he has already said that "the FATHER is the ONLY true God."

3) Apostle Paul is NOT authorized to CONTRADICT what Jesus TAUGHT about himself abd about God. ONLY Jesus is AUTHORIZED to declared WHO the FATHER is (Luke 10:22) and WHO God is (John 1:18). Thus, apostle Paul TAUGHT that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5) and the FATHER is the ONLY ONE God (1 Cor. 8:6).

Here’s, how they tie together,

Since Christ’s life is supposed to be an example for us, he humbled himself to be less than that of the father to be an example of how we should act toward God. Therefore, He really does have the same power as the Father, but he has reliquished it by allowing the Father to be his guide. Therefore the Trinity is true. If you look back on Philippians 2:5-8, you can see how Jesus humbling himself for the sake of man is reflected in these verses as well.

So the Trinity has merit. Because Jesus is still God. Jesus is just God himself showing people how to act toward him.

Your belief is founded on shaky grounds my friend. God says, "trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean NOT on your own understanding" (Prov. 3:5). Your OWN interpretation of John 10:30 CONTRADICTS what the Lord Jesus teaches (John 17:3). Your OWN interpretation of Phil. 2:5-8 CONTRADICTS what the Lord Jesus teaches (John 14:28). Hence, the Trinity does NOT have any merit at all because Jesus is a MAN - not God.

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As an extra, here is a summary of what the Trinity is (for anyone who doesn’t know):

1) The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all different but are all one entity at the same time.
2) All three: Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal. None is considered a higher entity

God is the FATHER while Jesus is the SON. The SON proceeded forth and came FROM God the FATHER who SENT the SON (John 8:42). The FATHER is GREATER than the SONA (John 14:28).

The Holy Spirit is SENT both by the Father and the Son. The one SENT is definitley LESS than the one who SENDS. It's as simple as that!

Ed

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