parousia70:
...Could you please explain to all us Christians here how any stone building built by modern day, Christ rejecting, Gospel denying, anti-christian people could in any way, shape, or form be "The Temple Of God"?...
Even though I believe the efficacy of the Jewish temple sacrifices stopped at the crucifixion (Matthew 27:51, Hebrews 7:18-27), and not in 70 AD, I believe "the temple of God" in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 refers to a literal Jewish temple that will be built, and "the holy place" in Matthew 24:15 refers technically to the inner part of the Jewish temple and to the same future "abomination of desolation" as Daniel 11:31, which refers to "the sanctuary" and "the daily sacrifice."
GW:
...You have ignored the OTHER qualification of the antichrists essential teaching. They not only denied that one needed Jesus to have the Father 1 Jn 2:22-23), but they ALSO taught that Christ's incarnation did not happen in a true flesh form...
Please see my reference to this 2nd aspect of antichrist doctrine in my post above, where I said "anyone who currently denies that Jesus is the Christ or denies that Jesus came in the flesh is an antichrist..."
...Antichrist is not one, but is MANY...
Please see my prior response to this claim in my post above, in the three paragraphs beginning "Again, even though the 'spirit of antichrist' is already in the world, this doesn't mean the antichrist himself has come, just as the Spirit of Christ is already in the world but this doesn't mean Christ himself has come again..."
...the antichrist spirit has been absent from the Church for nearly 1800 years now...
But is it absent from the present world? As I asked before, "No one today denies Jesus is the Christ, or denies that he came in the flesh?"
...to ignore that Daniel was already fulfilled once...
As I asked above, "Even the part of Daniel referred to in Matthew 24:15?"
...to communicate the fate of Israel in its last days period of 66-70AD...
As I asked above, "Can you show from historical sources how 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and each verse of Revelation 13 and Revelation 11 and Revelation 16 and Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 and Revelation 21-22 were all fulfilled? And how Christ's 2nd coming was 'immediately' after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31), was seen by every eye (Revelation 1:7), brought the resurrection and rapture of the entire church (1 Corinthians 15:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), and destroyed the Antichrist? (2 Thessalonians 2:8)"
...I find most amazing your claim that Luke 21:20-22 doesn't pertain to AD 66-70...
As I replied in my post above, Luke 21:20-24 cannot already have happened because when the city will be trodden down for 42 months the temple will remain (Revelation 11:1-2). Passages such as Revelation 11 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Revelation 13 have not been fulfilled yet.
...Daniel's book doesn't stretch 1500 years beyond Ancient Rome...
It does insofar as, for just one example, I believe the 10 toes of the image in Daniel 2:42-44 which are referred to as "these kings" could all come from the territory of the former Roman Empire, for it historically matches the fourth empire described in Daniel 2:37-41, and they could be the same as the 10 end-time kings of Revelation 17:12-17 which ultimately will "have one mind" and give their power to the Antichrist (Revelation 17:13), so that Europe and the Middle East and North Africa may combine politically again, just as they were combined by the Roman Empire.
...Jesus said the TIME WAS FULFILLED for the Kingdom of God to arrive in Mark 1:14-15...
Jesus said the Kingdom of God was "at hand" in Mark 1:15, or near to coming, and spoke of it as a future time: "Ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out" (Luke 13:28); as did Paul in the context of our future resurrection: "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 15:50).
When did Jesus sit on the throne of David? (Luke 1:32)
When were the following passages fulfilled?
"He that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" (Revelation 2:26-29).
"And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain. And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles" (Zechariah 14:16-18).
"And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it. And the LORD shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the LORD, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them. In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians. In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land: Whom the LORD of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance" (Isaiah 19:21-25).
"He shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid" (Micah 4:3-4).
...It is no accident that the 490 years also expire in the time of Christ's ministry...
Note that Daniel 9 doesn't refer to 490 years.
...you have ignored all of Daniel's time indicators...
I don't believe I have, but those which I believe some other men have come up with.
...This single passage is the ONLY evidence for a late dating of Revelation...
And I believe it is strong and clear evidence.
...The evidence for the EARLY date is overwhelming...
As I replied to this claim in my post above, "Not to those much closer to that time than we..."
...I think you'll agree that we have to choose scripture over tradition...
Not when they coincide regarding the events that must occur regarding the Antichrist. As I asked before, "How did Nero fulfill each verse of Revelation 13?"
...Menahem was the jewish Messiah and King that took control of the Temple in AD 66...
Can you quote the historical source which describes his acts which fulfilled 2 Thessalonians 2:4 -- sitting in the temple and exalting himself above God -- and then him being destroyed by Christ's return in 2 Thessalonians 2:8? What historical source shows Revelation 19:19-21 fulfilled?
...your systematic refusal to consider the inspired time statments of Revelation that demand a 1st century fulfillment...
I don't believe Revelation anywhere demands a 1st century fulfillment, and indeed we find no such fulfillment in history.
...A standing Temple in Israel back then was the Holy Spirit's sign that the way into the true holy place of Heaven was not yet available to receive the saints (Hebrews 9:7-9)...
It was available from the moment of the crucifixion:
"And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom" (Matthew 27:51).
"Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith" (Hebrews 10:19-22).
The Mosaic law was already removed before 70 AD:
"There is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof" (Hebrews 7:18).
"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law" (Hebrews 7:12).
"He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second" (Hebrews 10:9).
"There is no more offering for sin" (Hebrews 10:18).
"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man" (Ephesians 2:15).
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross" (Colossians 2:14).
"If the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished" (2 Corinthians 3:7-13).
...Jesus even promised to come to Smyrna...
Note that he promised them they would die before he came (Revelation 2:10).
...Jesus promised he was to come upon them and they were about to have that happen as a thief in the night (Rev 3:1-3)...
We do not find the 2nd coming events of Revelation 19 and Matthew 24:29-31 fulfilled anytime in the 1st century. Indeed, they have not been fulfilled to this day, so that Jesus' warnings to the churches of Asia must be warnings against complacency. Similarly, Revelation 3:20 was a positive encouragement to repentance that did not require the 2nd coming.
...Your denial that it happened makes both John and Jesus false prophets, or lunatics or liars...
Rather, I believe preterism, especially full preterism, effectively nullifies all of the highly detailed prophecies in passages such as Revelation 13 and Revelation 11 and Revelation 16 and Revelation 19 and Revelation 20 and Revelation 21-22, rendering them pointless and without any historical fulfillment.
...You are claiming that Christ didn't fulfill his promise to them...
Rather, I am claiming that preterism effectively voids Christ's prophecies.
...Can we now trust that Christ honors any of His promises?...
I don't believe we can, if we are preterists.
Full preterism destroys the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18) as it destroys our hope in the coming return of Christ (Titus 2:13, 1 Peter 1:13) and our resurrection into immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:52-55), and it and partial preterism hinder Christians from knowing, understanding, and preparing themselves for the sufferings and deceptions that are coming soon (Mark 13:23).
Future events will undo preterism completely, and reveal the damage it has done.
...It was for THEIR time (Rev 1;1, 1:3)...
Clearly it wasn't, for it was not fulfilled in their time. To God, Revelation will indeed shortly come to pass, for to him a thousand years are as one day (2 Peter 3:8), but we men need "long patience" in waiting for the 2nd coming, even though it draws nearer with each passing day (James 5:7-8).
...John wrote it during THE Tribulation at the Day of the Lord (Rev 1:8-10)...
John endured the tribulation which all Christians must and have gone through (Acts 14:22), but the end-times tribulation of Revelation 6-19 was yet in the future (Revelation 4:1), and still is.
...They knew and taught that THEY themselves were the last days generation (Matt 24:33-34...
In the parable of the fig tree, I believe Jesus was saying that the generation that saw the re-establishment of the nation of physical Israel (the rebudding of the fig tree) would see the tribulation and 2nd coming (Matthew 24:32-34). The nation of physical Israel was re-established in 1948 and I believe a generation is 70 years, for Psalm 90:10 speaks of how long it takes for a generation to pass away, which is exactly what Jesus refers to.
I believe Daniel 9:25-27 confirms that the nation of physical Israel would be restored at the beginning of the same 70 "weeks" in which the abomination of desolation and Christ's coming would occur. In the Hebrew, "week" is the word for "seven" (shebuah), which has for its root the word for "complete" (shaba), so that "weeks" may represent "completions," which may be years.
...James 5:3; 1 Peter 1:20; Acts 2:15-17...
The "last days" began as early as Pentecost (Acts 2:16-17), but "the end" will include events which have not yet transpired (Matthew 24:6), such as those in Revelation 13.