Trinity

1+1+1=1?

God doesn't need logic. At least that's what I hear around here.

A simple example is the sun, the star itself, the light and the heat, but it is all the one sun.

Go here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t51995

Hello, angel. Welcome to ChristianForums.

Your question is asked many times by many people. So, you're in good company.

Accepting first that there is only One God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

And then Accepting that the Son of God is the Word became Flesh and that He created the world and that He is Eternally God.

And then accepting that when Jesus had left Earth, The father sent the Comforter the Holy Spirit to dwell within His Church, which is the Body of believers.

That when Jesus told the Apostles to go and preach the good news and to baptize in the name (singular) of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit; that this shows the equality of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, we come to the following conclusion.

***

The Father is fully God.

The Son is fully God.

The Holy Spirit is fully God.

Not that these are Three gods, but These are the One True God.

***

It is called the Mystery of the Blessed Trinity.

Three Divine Persons, who are the One God.

All attempts to explain this by humans to humans, will fall short of fullness. Saint Patrick taught this by showing the shamrock. Three leaves, are One clover.

Again, however, The Father is not 1/3 of God, and Jesus is not a third, and the Holy Spirit is not the third third. The Blessed Trinity is not a pizzza cut into three slices.

Each Divine Person is fully God.

****

And another Mystery of Faith is the Incarnation.

Jesus is fully God who became a man. he had two natures: he is 100% God, and he was also 100% man.
Not a half "godling:, like the mythical Hercules, who had Zeus as his father and an Earth mother.

Jesus IS fully God, 100%, even when The Word Became Flesh, and was 100% fully man.

angelicradianse said:

I am confused by trinity. I don't understand it at all. If anyone can help with this can you please.

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How God can be multi-dimensional in personality and person is near impossible to explain for man, just as are so many things. We still have no power over time or gravity, basic elemental powers, and are still left to putting names on things that already have life. The fact that God is able to operate in three areas at once has been to our benefit - receiving His Son to give His life for us and then to send us His Holy Spirit as guide and comforter. Of course, the Father resides over and through all of this. How is it that we live and breathe and have our being inside of God? We have no answer other than it is the divine providential message God has left us through the history of man so that we may know Him and become Sons of God.

I'm very glad that God is more powerful than just being stuck to the narrow-minded frame of man - still counting fingers and toes, trying to figure 3 in 1 right up till the day they die. Death holds no sway over those that are glad and thankful to God for His love and provision no matter what wondrous means He uses to accomplish His will.

Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

My simple answer: 1x1x1=1

Angelic,

Faith is required, not understanding. I have said this before, but how can a creation completely understand it Creator?

angelicradianse said:

Why then on the cross did he say " MY God, MY God, Why hath thou forsaken me?"

Please help to explain this stuff to me.

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This confused me for so long, and seriously made me doubt the Trinity. But I found out the answer and am happy to share it with you.

Psalm 22 describes the Crucifixion. This Psalm is all about Jesus. The first verse (22:1) says, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me??"
Jesus said this to fulfill a prophecy.

By 1x1x1=1 I meant that three Ones can equal One.

To understand is to know, and to know is to lose faith.

One has to be irrational and illogical, usually, just to believe much of the ideas about God and the Bible. Trinity included.

Jesus was a man, with God controlling him. God is God. Holy Ghost is like God's mind, goes around inspiring people, the idea of "being everywhere" comes from him methinks.

God is a 3-party system in a one world realm. Jesus probably doesn't exist anymore as he was really just God. I'm pretty sure God would've already disposed of the man Jesus is, as he had no further use, or is maybe keeping him on Ice till the big day.

Who knows.. just meandering free-thought.

angelicradianse said:

And another thing. If the father, the son and the holdy spirit are one. Does that mean that Jesus was all three of them.

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There was a heresy, which continues even today, that the One God takes these three different forms. (Like changing clothes) The early historical Christian community, built by Jesus upon his Apostles, said that this view was WRONG. Flat out wrong.

When Jesus was baptized in the River Jordan by his cousin John the Baptist, a voice from heaven said "This is my beloved Son", and a dove was seen by many. THIS shows that God The Father is in heaven, as the Son walked the Earth, and the Holy Spirit is ALSO God.
Jesus commanded the Apostles to baptize "in the name (singular" of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit [Holy Ghost]."

While each Divine Person is fully the One God, they are distinct Persons. (I told you that it is a Mystery. ) It is beyond our human comprehension to fully grasp or to fully explain.
For example, how can we explain that before anything existed, God existed?
"But if it's before 'anything' existed how can God exist before that?"
"If there was no time before the universe, how did God exist?"

Paul writing to the Christian Church in Corinth, Greece.
(1 Corinthians 2:4-7)
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

(1 Corinthians 2:12-14)
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

So he [Jesus] was God on Earth? If he was. Who does he pray to? I have heard that it was God the father.

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The above is all correct. Jesus IS God. He IS the Word Became Flesh. He is fully God and he became fully man. (not 50% God and 50% man) When He entered Mary's womb, he did not cease to be God. He became a man, yet remained God. This is why the prophecy was fulfilled that he would be born of a virgin and be named Immanuel, which means God with us.

Jesus (The Word became Flesh) did pray to The Father. And Jesus taught us to pray, "Our Father who art in heaven..."

Why then on the cross did he say " MY God, MY God, Why hath thou forsaken me?"

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THIS is an excellent question. Many people don't bother to ask this and find out. I'm glad you did.

Jesus would quote "Old Testament scripture" in the synagogue and then declare, "Today this prophecy is fullfilled."
(Imagine someone saying that today. "This prophecy in the Book of Isaiah is about ME. I AM the One that Isaac wrote about.")

And many times, the Pharisees wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy, for making himself equal to God. (In Judaism, there is only One God, no other gods, none equal to the One God. If any Jew claimed to be equal with the Lord God, the punishment was death by stoning.)

Pontius Pilate had asked him if he was the King of the Jews, and Jesus had NOT said, "Not, I'm not; they misunderstand me; I'm just a really really holy prophet of God, and they misunderstood me when I said I was the bread from heaven. I'm not from heaven; I'm just a man."
Jesus gave no defense.

And so "now", Jesus is on the cross dying.

And he quotes "Old Testament scripture" through all his agony. (He could have yelled down "I was only kidding, folks, I'm not equal to God. Lemme down!" But he didn't.

(Matthew 41-46)
Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said,
He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.

The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.

Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

The ninth hour is significant to Jews, for that is when the sacrificial lamb is killed for Passover. And here is Jesus quoting Holy Scripture.

(Psalm 22, written by King David)
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.

But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.

Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.

They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.

But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.

Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.

I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.

The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.

All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.

For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.

All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.

They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

Now imagine those present who heard Jesus, while on the cross, quote the first line of that Psalm. Imagine as they begin to speak that entire Psalm, and looking around they SEE that Psalm being acted out before their eyes!

Some thought Jesus was crying out to the Prophet Elias to help him. (Elias being dead and in heaven), but Jesus was not crying out to Elias, but was quoting Psalms 22.

Read chapter 27 of Matthew, while having Psalm 22 open. Compare the two.

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Mel Gibson's new movie "The Passion of Christ" comes out on Ash Wednesday in 2004 (Don't know the date. In April?)

One of the lines of dialogue which Mel removed because some Jewish League said that it would cause problems for Jews today, because the line could cause some anti-semitism is (Matthew 27:5) I will bold what has been removed from the film.

(Matthew 27:22-25)
Pilate saith unto them, What shall I do then with Jesus which is called Christ? They all say unto him, Let him be crucified.

And the governor said, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out the more, saying, Let him be crucified.

When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.

Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

It is truly a shame that this line is removed from the film. Let me explain.

Notice first that is was ALL THE PEOPLE who said it, not just the Jews. This is significant, when we understand that Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

For when we compare the bolded line above, with the very first actual animal lamb's blood that Moses had collected from that sacrificial lamb...

Exodus 24:8
And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

The blood upon the people was not to blame the people for their sins. The blood
was of the covenant, the AGREEMENT between God and the people. Those covered by the blood of the Lamb are God's people.

Learn to summarize. Just a thought.

I doubt most younger people want to read 1-3 pages on a question. But I may be wrong. Looks like one overwhelmes with that amount.

Readers, realize that Dyrwen is an admitted godless atheist.
His explanation of a spiritual matter of God will be lacking.

The Opening Post is a Question about Christianity. While all answers are allowed on this forum, realize the belief of those who reply.

Dyrwen said:

To understand is to know, and to know is to lose faith.

One has to be irrational and illogical, usually, just to believe much of the ideas about God and the Bible. Trinity included.

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Exactly true.

(1 Corinthians 2:4-7)
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Jesus was a man, with God controlling him. God is God. Holy Ghost is like God's mind, goes around inspiring people, the idea of "being everywhere" comes from him methinks.

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The above is an incorrect explanation of the Blessed Trinity by a godless atheist. ( No offense meant by stating the truth, Dyrwen .)

Jesus was not a man controlled by God. Jesus IS God.
He is the Second Divine Person. 100% fully God.
And he became 100%fully man, while remaining 100%fully God.

The Holy Ghost is NOT 'like God's mind".
The Holy Ghost is the Third Divine Person. 100% fully God.
He dwells within his spirit who are "born again". "Born" not in the carnal manner of reentering one's mother's womb, but born of The Spirit.

God is a 3-party system in a one world realm. Jesus probably doesn't exist anymore as he was really just God. I'm pretty sure God would've already disposed of the man Jesus is, as he had no further use, or is maybe keeping him on Ice till the big day.

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Incorrect again.
Jesus DOES still exist. he ascended to Heaven BODILY and will return in the same manner. Jesus is fully God and is fully human. This is called the Hypostatic Union. Jesus has two natures: 100% the Divine nature and 100% a human nature.

This is why Mary is called the Mother of God. Not that she created God, for no human creates anything. GOD is the Creator. Mary gave birth to GOD. The Greek term is "Theotokos" (God bearer). She gave birth to God. Jesus is fully God forever. This means he did not stop being God at any time, not even when he was a fetus in Mary's womb. The Word became Flesh. (But, the Word remained the Eternal Word.)

No one can divide Jesus into two Jesuses.

You surmise that there is no further use for the man Jesus and that God may have disposed of him.
However, the MAN Jesus and the GOD Jesus are ONE JESUS. As God, Jesus did not shuck off his humanity. Jesus IS fully God, and also became fully human.

As for Jesus being "on Ice, until the big day".

He will return BODILY as He promised. This does not mean that Jesus is not with us spiritually today. He IS. He said so.

Who knows.. just meandering free-thought.

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Nothing wrong with free thought. Nothing wrong with you posting what you think.

GOD knows, by the way.

And nothing wrong with me posting my Christian beliefs, these spiritual beliefs on a spiritual matter.

Peace.

Please don`t shoot the messenger.

Most Muslims hold the view that the concept of Trinity was introduced by Satan to corrupt the teachings of Christ whom they view as the second greatest prophet, who`s most dear to God.

I tried to explain Trinity to a Muslim friend (I`m not a Christian, so the faith factor is lost on me) as best as I could, including all examples I had read about, and he still said "well they worship three gods plus the saints then."

You have to be firmly Christian before you can accept the Trinity I guess, since it makes absolutely no sense without faith.

opheiletes said:

Please don`t shoot the messenger.

Most Muslims hold the view that the concept of Trinity was introduced by Satan to corrupt the teachings of Christ whom they view as the second greatest prophet, who`s most dear to God.

I tried to explain Trinity to a Muslim friend (I`m not a Christian, so the faith factor is lost on me) as best as I could, including all examples I had read about, and he still said "well they worship three gods plus the saints then."

You have to be firmly Christian before you can accept the Trinity I guess, since it makes absolutely no sense without faith.

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The Trinity concept is not what draws Muslims from their faith, but it is the Holy Spirit.

We can never fully understand God, but we try to come as close as we can, and with His guidance we do.

It makes sense my friend, hard to understand at first to some though.

Well said Ben.

God Bless

I typed and post post #14, without seeing post #13 by Dyrwen.

Dyrwen said:

Learn to summarize. Just a thought.

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Sometimes I do go on a bit.

I doubt most younger people want to read 1-3 pages on a question. But I may be wrong. Looks like one overwhelmes with that amount.

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I realized some time ago, that what is posted for ONE reader, remains available for other readers. So while one reader may be overwhelmed, there may be one point that I make which strikes a chord with another reader.

With the internet, readers can web search various key phrases from my post.

Blessed Trinity
Incarnation
Hypostatic Union
Theotokos

Or, readers can choose not to.

opheiletes said:

You have to be firmly Christian before you can accept the Trinity I guess, since it makes absolutely no sense without faith.

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Hate to quote myself, but just 5 minutes ago I happened to read a post by TWells on another thread, and it made sense more than any other explanation I`ve seen to date:

"Jesus and NT writers set Him squarely within Jewish monotheism (which did NOT include the numerical twist which the West has placed on it) which centered around YHWH being revealed (and active whithin the world) in Word, Wisdom, Torah, Shekinah/Presence and Spirit. In scriputral and apocryphal literature these 'forms' were a hypostasis, which is a personification of one of YHWH's attributes. A hypostasis was divine but was not the whole of the deity. The NT claims Jesus was YHWH's Word/Wisdom. This also has relevance to the way in which ANE cultures viewed language/words which is significantly different than the way we do. Jesus was basically YHWH's speech or words or actions in the flesh, Jesus had ignorace of many things including the time of His vindication because it had not yet been uttered by YHWH. This also ties into the idea that a hypostasis had to "empty" itself before entering the world lest it actually destroy the world."

Never thought of it on these terms, despite having read John`s Gospel so many times--then again, my Ancient Greek professor recently said that one can translate "En arhe en o logos kai o logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en o logos" in at least 50 different ways since "logos" alone has 11 major meanings in koine greek, but that`s a different matter

KennySe said:

1.The above is an incorrect explanation of the Blessed Trinity by a godless atheist. ( No offense meant by stating the truth, Dyrwen .)

2.Jesus was not a man controlled by God. Jesus IS God.
He is the Second Divine Person. 100% fully God.
And he became 100%fully man, while remaining 100%fully man.

The Holy Ghost is NOT 'like God's mind".
The Holy Ghost is the Third Divine Person. 100% fully God.
He dwells within his spirit who are "born again". "Born" not in the carnal manner of reentering one's mother's womb, but born of The Spirit.

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Ok.. *numbers*
1. It's fine. happens all the time.
2. If Jesus "is" God, then God was "off-duty" while he was "IN" Jesus. Hence my attempts to show Jesus as a vessel.
...*loses numbers*
Seriously. You're calling God about 300% right now. Your explaination of "Divine person" makes no sense.

eh, whatever. Even as an atheist, I'd say mine explanation of a deity your worship and follow was much more reasonable. Yours is merely illogical, which is all well and good in explaning God, but does exactly JACK for human understanding.

KennySe said:

Incorrect again.
Jesus DOES still exist. he ascended to Heaven BODILY and will return in the same manner. Jesus is fully God and is fully human. This is called the Hypostatic Union. Jesus has two natures: 100% the Divine nature and 100% a human nature.

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Earth to Kenny, calling Jesus fully God and fully human means he's two things at once. That may be possible with your God, but quite frankly, using Jesus as a portal into this world to spread his message and save the living is much more reasonable. To claim Jesus holds two entities is a bit schizophrenic, and if you disagree, well, you're just wrong. Plainly speaking, for a Human being named Jesus to hold two minds inside himself (God & Jesus) would be to have two separate wills, minds, and abilities.

Just seems like much more of a hassle to explain and hit walls of rational.

KennySe said:

This is why Mary is called the Mother of God. Not that she created God, for no human creates anything. GOD is the Creator. Mary gave birth to GOD. The Greek term is "Theotokos" (God bearer). She gave birth to God. Jesus is fully God forever. This means he did not stop being God at any time, not even when he was a fetus in Mary's womb. The Word became Flesh. (But, the Word remained the Eternal Word.)

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I agree with your there, she did Birth Jesus, but technically also birthed God. Since Jesus (the man) was born from her, and God was inside Jesus (behind the wheel) then this was possible.

KennySe said:

No one can divide Jesus into two Jesuses.

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Although it certainly seems QUITE possible to Multiply Jesuses, now doesn't it? Mr. 300%.

KennySe said:

However, the MAN Jesus and the GOD Jesus are ONE JESUS. As God, Jesus did not shuck off his humanity. Jesus IS fully God, and also became fully human.

As for Jesus being "on Ice, until the big day".




Nothing wrong with free thought. Nothing wrong with you posting what you think. GOD knows, by the way. And nothing wrong with me posting my Christian beliefs, these spiritual beliefs on a spiritual matter.

Peace.

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So, who exactly was God before Jesus arrived from Mary? Hm? Just God and the Ghost? Or was Jesus sort of hanging around waiting to be born in Heaven?

Thanks for giving your perspective with mine, obviously I don't agree a lot of times, not trying to be mean or disruptive with my perception of how it is, but when ideas clash . heh.. onward.