2nd Coming vs Rapture

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Patmosman_sga

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Looks like a typical rapturist site: long on pointing out the deficiencies of other views, but short on understanding its own inadequacies. Didn't Jesus say something about paying attention to the speck in your brother's eye while ignoring the log in your own eye?

For what it's worth, here's a little synopsis of what we do learn from the parable of the ten virgins:

One fact which has become increasingly apparent to me in studying the parables recorded in the synoptic gospels is that not one of them is self-contained. That is, to get to the meaning of one parable, you have to consider it in light of all the others. Taken from such a wholistic perspective, several recurrent themes become apparent. These themes will most likely be considered offensive to our postmodern sensibilities and subversive to our postmodern cultural presuppositions. But such is the essence of the gospel. In every age, its message runs directly counter to the culture which the Church, entrusted with its message, is called to confront.

Consider, first, that the principles in this parable are "ten virgins." That is, ten virtuous young women who have all kept themselves pure for the coming of the bridegroom. From a purely esoteric standpoint, all ten "virgins" would be considered good and decent. Yet, all ten of them "became drowsy and slept" while awaiting the coming of the bridegroom. While all of them were virtuous, none of them, it seems, had the strength, in and of themselves, to remain alert while waiting. They were all tainted by discouragement. Thus, none of them were to be counted worthy merely because they were virtuous.

Second, we are told from the start that five of the virgins were "foolish" because they did not take oil for their lamps; and five were "wise" because they took flasks of oil for their lamps. While it would seem, on the surface, that all ten virgins are travelling on the same road, they actually have two different destinations. The "foolish" are journeying toward darkness; the wise toward the light. They are two separate groups, but this separation will not be apparent until the moment of crisis, namely, the coming of the bridegroom.

But it is precisely that moment of crisis which yields the most shocking surprises.

First, the coming of the bridegroom means division, not unity. The darkness of the "foolish" is exposed; the light of the "wise" is made to shine. The light is separated from the darkness, and the two are found to have nothing in common.

Second, the coming of the bridegroom means the time for decision has already passed. The "foolish" plead for the "wise" to share the light with them. But the "wise" do not share. Instead, they send the "foolish" away to fend for themselves.

Third, the coming of the bridegroom means exclusion, not inclusion. The "wise" are welcomed at the marriage feast; the foolish literally have the door shut in their faces and are disowned by the bridegroom, leaving them outside in the darkness.

In summation, there are four lessons we learn from this parable:

1) All "good" girls (and boys) do not go to heaven. Being "good" is not "good enough" to be invited to the wedding feast.

2) All roads do not lead to the same destination. Only those who walk in the light will find their way to the banquet hall.

3) We do not have "all the time we need" to decide whether we will follow the light or follow the darkness. We only have "all the time" God has graciously chosen to give us, and we don't know when "the day or the hour" will come when our "time" is up.

4) Whether or not we are included at the Lord's banquet table is God's decision, not ours. But we will be called to give an account for how we respond to the light we receive
 
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tov

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"looks like a typical rapturist site: long on pointing out the deficiencies of other views, but short on understanding its own inadequacies."

Comments like those are personal & offensive.
I would expect more polite debate from a Methodist Pastor.
Don't be so quick to reject plain truth.
The HOLY SPIRIT is the oil.
Like the goodman, you're not look'n for the thief in the night.
(Jesus' return) - Don't get left behind.
I say forget those progressive dispensationalists.
I say forget those replacement theologians.
I'll stand with Scofield.

Jesus said, "and this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all nations, and then shall the end come"

The Wycliffe Bible translators believe they can produce Bible translations in every language by the year 2025.

Methodism dosn't seem to like to talk about end times. Aren't they basically replacement and dominion theology types?
 
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Patmosman_sga

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tov said:
"looks like a typical rapturist site: long on pointing out the deficiencies of other views, but short on understanding its own inadequacies."

Comments like those are personal & offensive.
I would expect more polite debate from a Methodist Pastor.
Don't be so quick to reject plain truth.
The HOLY SPIRIT is the oil.
Like the goodman, you're not look'n for the thief in the night.
(Jesus' return) Get left behind.
I say forget those progressive dispensationalists.
I say forget those replacement theologians.
I'll stand with Scofield.
QED


Jesus said, "and this Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all nations, and then shall the end come"

The Wycliffe Bible translators believe they can produce Bible translations in every language by the year 2025.
So, what's your point? That "the end" will come once the Wycliffe folks finish all their translating? Those Bibles have to be distributed after they've been translated; and those who receive them have to be taught how to read and interpret them, not to mention how to find salvation in Jesus Christ. If I'm not mistaken, salvation comes by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by merely owning a copy of the Bible in one's native language.

I once heard someone say that "the end" would come after Billy Graham's sermon at the National Cathedral following 9/11. Since that sermon was broadcast by satellite worldwide, this fellow said, Jesus' prophecy was now fulfilled. Well, it sure would have been nice of Jesus to tell his original disciples that this task of world evangelization would be completely accomplished by one man preaching one sermon some 2,000 years later. Maybe, if they had known that in advance, they wouldn't have been so foolish as to go out and get themselves burned, beheaded, crucified upside down, devoured by wild beasts, thrown into cauldrons of boiling oil, stoned, and run through with spears in the vain hope that they might actually accomplish the task of taking the gospel into the whole "inhabited earth" (oikoumenei) within their own generation.


Methosism dosn't seem to like to talk about end times. Aren't they basically replacement and dominion theology types?
No. We are covenental and believe that Christ died to redeem the whole person and will eventually redeem the whole creation (cf. Romans 8:18-25).
 
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tov

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patmosman said:
“So, what's your point? That "the end" will come once the Wycliffe folks finish all their translating?”

You sound like a mocker. I'll pray for you.

patmosman said:
“Maybe, if they had known that in advance, they wouldn't have been so foolish as to go out and get themselves burned, beheaded, crucified upside down, devoured by wild beasts, thrown into cauldrons of boiling oil, stoned, and run through with spears in the vain hope that they might actually accomplish the task of taking the gospel into the whole "inhabited earth" (oikoumenei) within their own generation.”

Like them, many now suffer. Voice of the Martyrs says more suffer now than then.

patmosman said:
“We are covenental and believe that Christ died to redeem the whole person and will eventually redeem the whole creation.”


Yes, but the way you put it sounds like dominion theology...
The gospel will not take over the world. Things will wax worse n worse. Then comes the bridegroom for the bride. Then comes the wrath of God- Tribulation. Then comes Jesus to the Mt. of Olives. It splits in half. And a new begining starts then. That is from understanding the plain scripture, front to back, the whole book as a whole, not allegorizing prophecy, but taking it seriously. The church is not Israel. The Gospel will not convert the world.
 
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Pericles

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tov said:
Yes, but the way you put it sounds like dominion theology...
The gospel will not take over the world. Things will wax worse n worse. Then comes the bridegroom for the bride. Then comes the wrath of God- Tribulation. Then comes Jesus to the Mt. of Olives. It splits in half. And a new begining starts then. That is from understanding the plain scripture, front to back, the whole book as a whole, not allegorizing prophecy, but taking it seriously. The church is not Israel. The Gospel will not convert the world.
I feel sorry for you....believing in a God that has no power over evil...that can't control his own creation...that can't convert the world. How sad!
 
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Patmosman_sga

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tov said:
The gospel will not take over the world. Things will wax worse n worse. Then comes the bridegroom for the bride. Then comes the wrath of God- Tribulation. Then comes Jesus to the Mt. of Olives. It splits in half. And a new begining starts then. That is from understanding the plain scripture, front to back, the whole book as a whole, not allegorizing prophecy, but taking it seriously. The church is not Israel. The Gospel will not convert the world.
So, what on earth are we doing here? :confused:
 
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tov

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The Works of J.WESLEY said:
And as it was with them in ancient times, so it is with the present generation. Thousands of those who bear the name of Christ are now given up to an undiscerning mind. The God of this world hath so blinded their eyes, that the light cannot shine upon them; so that they can no more discern the signs of the times, than the Pharisees and Sadducees could of old... For surely there never was a time wherein Satan gained so fatal an advantage over the Church of Christ, as when such a flood of riches, and honor, and power broke in upon it, particularly on the Clergy... What could God have done which he hath not done, to convince you that the day is coming, that the time is at hand, when he will fulfill his glorious promises; when he will arise to maintain his own cause, and to set up his kingdom over all the earth? What, indeed, unless he had forced you to believe? And this he could not do, without destroying the nature which he had given you: For he made you free agents; having an inward power of self-determination, which is essential to your nature. And he deals with you as free agents from first to last. As such, you may shut or open your eyes as you please.
 
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Patmosman_sga

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And as it was with them in ancient times, so it is with the present generation. Thousands of those who bear the name of Christ are now given up to an undiscerning mind. The God of this world hath so blinded their eyes, that the light cannot shine upon them; so that they can no more discern the signs of the times, than the Pharisees and Sadducees could of old... For surely there never was a time wherein Satan gained so fatal an advantage over the Church of Christ, as when such a flood of riches, and honor, and power broke in upon it, particularly on the Clergy... What could God have done which he hath not done, to convince you that the day is coming, that the time is at hand, when he will fulfill his glorious promises; when he will arise to maintain his own cause, and to set up his kingdom over all the earth? What, indeed, unless he had forced you to believe? And this he could not do, without destroying the nature which he had given you: For he made you free agents; having an inward power of self-determination, which is essential to your nature. And he deals with you as free agents from first to last. As such, you may shut or open your eyes as you please.


I do not need an education on the sermons of John Wesley, as they are part of the established doctrinal standards of my denomination. Rest assured, he was no dispensationalist, and there are any number of Wesleyan scholars (eg. Mulholland, Greider, Witherington, Runyon) who will be happy to point this out to you if you won't take my word for it.
 
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1John5:3

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A comprehensive compilation of Bible texts on Christ’s Second Coming/rapture.
Click on the purple text below.





purpl_b.gif
Christ is Coming Back - lots of texts
 
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tov

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“That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets. A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.”
(Matt 12:17-20)

That says he is meek and mild only until he sends forth judgment unto victory.
Sounds like judgment day to me. It sure doesn’t sound like any amillennial, preterist, kingdom-now, dominion theology to me.

(FYI; Amazing Facts and affiliates are 7th day)
 
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Symes

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The Rapture and the Second Coming are really the same event. That is what Rapture means.

But to look at what the Bible says about the event is very critical and necessary.

Read Matthew 24 and we see there that the tribulation takes place and then we see Christ coming to take His followers back to heaven.

Read again Revelation 16 and John says the same. There is the tribulation and at the end we see the Second Coming.

No doubt in my mind when they all take place.

It is true that God's commandments are not a burden to keep, in fact it says "If ye love me keep my commandments" that is ten, not nine, or however number we may like to keep.
 
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tov

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I guess you havn't recognized the Hebrew character of both Matthew and Revelation. For instance in Matthew, Jesus says
pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation
We are not Sabbath keepers are we?
We do Sundays not Saturdays.
Who are the 144,000 of Rev?
Certainly not the JW's.
They are Jews.
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little... (Isa 28:10 )
 
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Symes

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"pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation"

The tribulation that Jesus was talking about here was the destruction of Jerusalem. It did not take place until AD 70. At that time Jesus was still thinking that they would be keeping the Sabbath as He said to them to pray that your flight will not be on the Sabbath. That is at least another 30 years after He was crucified. Ask any Jew and they were all Jews He was talking with what day was He talking about? It was Saturday not Sunday. There were no Sunday keepers there. They all kept the Saturday Sabbath. Christ was telling them that in the future there would still be the same Sabbath.

 
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tov

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So then, that makes you a preterist.
The Abomination of desolation was never fulfilled as well as it was by Antiochus Epiphanies. But there is another coming. Make the argument for Titus? But only now do we enter the age of Globalism. Globalism is important to prophecy.
1-all nations come against Israel
2- the Antichrist makes all receive a mark
3- the Gospel will be preached in all nations and then shall the end come

I could on. This should suffice for now.
 
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Symes

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1-all nations come against Israel
2- the Antichrist makes all receive a mark
3- the Gospel will be preached in all nations and then shall the end come
You are right in one sense, it is Israel. Not the Israel that we know of in the Middle East but it is spiritual Israel. God's true Church. The New Testament is very clear that Israel is finished.
 
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tov

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"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." (Romans 11:25)

The important word is until
This is a rapture verse
 
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