Did Organized religion save Jesus?

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DigitaLVampirE

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Who killed Jesus? Was it the Romans?
According to a Protestant friend of mine...this is what he says...

Jesus predicted it this way in Mat 20: 17-18 “…the son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes. And they shall condemn him to death”.

“Now the chief priests, and the elders, and all the council sought false witness against Jesus to put him to death.” Mat 26:59

“When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took council against Jesus to put him to death”. Mat 27:1

“...the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might TAKE HIM BY CRAFT AND PUT HIM TO DEATH.” Mark 14:1

And check this one out: “Then the high priest rent his clothes, and said What need we any further witnesses?and they all condemned him to be guilty of death. AND SOME BEGAN TO SPIT ON HIM, AND TO COVER HIS FACE, AND TO STRIKE HIM,…AND THE SERVANTS DID STRIKE HIM WITH THE PALMS OF THEIR HANDS.” Mark 14:63-65 Ponyatno???? It wasn’t the Romans doing this to him. It was the Jewish priests…THE RELIGIOUS MACHINE! The Romans weren't there.

Were the priests and scribes the religious machine of the day? Yes!

Did the religious machine SAVE Jesus…or kill him? What does the Bible say?

What are your thoughts? How did the Catholic Church save Jesus?
 

BAChristian

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I look at it from the angle that whoever did kill Jesus did so by the will of our heavenly Father.

Jesus could have called upon an army of angels, but he didn't...so regardless of who killed him, I focus on the why he was killed...

We all know why he was killed...

By performing acts of penance, and reconciliation, we receive the necessary graces to continue to draw closer to Him -- in effect, we continuously seek to save Jesus from that cross because we don't want to crucify him over and over through our own sins.

The Catholic Church plays a role in saving Jesus -- because she teaches her people to continuously draw closer to Him and avoid those sins (no matter how venial or mortal) that crucify Him over and over.
 
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DigitaLVampirE

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Thank you BA, but i believe the aim of my friend was to show me or rather tell me that the RC is an organized religion. And that salvation is through faith alone and not by works and the RC killed Jesus because he (my friend) believes it's tradition, rituals and beliefs that killed our faith in Jesus.If indeed the RC is an organized religion, how do we prove to skeptics that the RC is in accordance with what the Bible teaches?
Please give your comments. Bible quotes would be very helpful to me at this point of time, since Fundamentalists want proof of it's accordance (Church teachings) in the Scriptures.

Many thanks.
 
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Wolseley

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DigitaLVampirE said:
Who killed Jesus? Was it the Romans?


Who killed Christ?

I did. You did. Your Protestant friend did. The Jews did. The Romans did. The Japanese did. The Russians did. The British did. The Mexicans did.

We all did. We have all sinned, and He took the penalty for what we did.

We are all guilty of killing Christ.

Jesus predicted it this way in Mat 20: 17-18 “…the son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes. And they shall condemn him to death”.

“Now the chief priests, and the elders, and all the council sought false witness against Jesus to put him to death.” Mat 26:59
They could condemn Him, but they had no power to execute Him. See John 18:31.


“When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took council against Jesus to put him to death”. Mat 27:1
"They bound Him, led Him away, and handed Him over to Pilate, the governor." Matt. 27:2. Context, my dear fellow, context. ;)


“...the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might TAKE HIM BY CRAFT AND PUT HIM TO DEATH.” Mark 14:1
See above.


And check this one out: “Then the high priest rent his clothes, and said What need we any further witnesses?and they all condemned him to be guilty of death. AND SOME BEGAN TO SPIT ON HIM, AND TO COVER HIS FACE, AND TO STRIKE HIM,…AND THE SERVANTS DID STRIKE HIM WITH THE PALMS OF THEIR HANDS.” Mark 14:63-65 Ponyatno???? It wasn’t the Romans doing this to him. It was the Jewish priests…THE RELIGIOUS MACHINE! The Romans weren't there.
The Romans mocked Him in a similar fashion the next morning. See Matt. 27:29ff, Mark 15:16ff, John 19:3.


Were the priests and scribes the religious machine of the day? Yes!
So because the Pharisees were the religious machine in Judea, that automatically makes the Catholic Church worthy of condemnation today?

That's sort of like saying the United States invaded Iraq because of Alexander the Great, wouldn't you say?


Did the religious machine SAVE Jesus…or kill him?
The religious machine had nothing to do with it. The individuals in the religious machine did---as we all did.

What does the Bible say?
See above.


What are your thoughts? How did the Catholic Church save Jesus?
Considering that the Church wasn't established yet, it would be pretty hard for the Church to save Jesus. Or to kill Him, for that matter.

i believe the aim of my friend was to show me or rather tell me that the RC is an organized religion.
That's no secret. What, has he been living in a subterrannean cavern on one of Jupiter's moons for the last 2,000 years?

And that salvation is through faith alone and not by works
The Catholic Church doesn't believe in salvation by works, either. The Catholic Church believes in salvation by grace; faith and works are merely manifestations of that grace.

and the RC killed Jesus because he (my friend) believes it's tradition, rituals and beliefs that killed our faith in Jesus.
As I pointed out, the Catholic Church wasn't involved in the physical execution of Christ, since it didn't exist yet; as to what you're describing above (while an erroneous viewpoint, but I'll play devil's advocate here for a second), that has nothing to do with killing Christ, either, but rather a killing of the faith people have in Christ through ritual.

However, what gives him the idea that a faith which employs liturgical ritual is any less alive than one that doesn't? Because it doesn't do things the way his church does? So what?

If indeed the RC is an organized religion, how do we prove to skeptics that the RC is in accordance with what the Bible teaches?
You can't "prove" anything to anybody who doesn't want to accept what you have to say. All you can do is present the full and complete body of Christian testimony compiled over the first 800 years of Christian history, including the New Testament, the Patristic Fathers, the Church Councils, and the writings of various bishops, Popes, theologians, and scholars, and see how the Catholic Church stacks up agaianst the Bible.

Anyone who does this will discover that the Catholic Church is a lot more in concordance with the Bible than many Protestant churches are today.

Please give your comments. Bible quotes would be very helpful to me at this point of time, since Fundamentalists want proof of it's accordance (Church teachings) in the Scriptures.
What Scriptural "proof texts" are you seeking, pertaining to which specific doctrines?
 
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DigitaLVampirE

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LOL Wolsley, yes i do believe he's in Jupiter as he's a non-denominational Fundamentalist Christian. I have debated with him several times regarding the Church authority. But this question of his, really got me baffled and i'm afraid it's a little harder for me this time.Patristic Fathers, the Church Councils, and the writings of various bishops, Popes, theologians - yes, we know that. But they don't. That is the reason why they are quick to deny the authenticity of the Church. Because they primarily believe in sola scripture. So they want proof that the Catholic Church was born on the day of the Pentecost in 33AD.
He keeps yelling "Say NO to Religion. Religion killed Jesus!"
From my interpretation, what he is trying to say is that organized religion (such as the RC and OC) were directly involved in killing the faith in Christ. As in his reply to me:

Jesus predicted it this way in Mat 20: 17-18 “…the son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes. And they shall condemn him to death”.

“Now the chief priests, and the elders, and all the council sought false witness against Jesus to put him to death.” Mat 26:59

“When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took council against Jesus to put him to death”. Mat 27:1

“...the chief priests and the scribes sought how they might TAKE HIM BY CRAFT AND PUT HIM TO DEATH.” Mark 14:1

And check this one out: “Then the high priest rent his clothes, and said What need we any further witnesses?and they all condemned him to be guilty of death. AND SOME BEGAN TO SPIT ON HIM, AND TO COVER HIS FACE, AND TO STRIKE HIM,…AND THE SERVANTS DID STRIKE HIM WITH THE PALMS OF THEIR HANDS.” Mark 14:63-65 Ponyatno???? It wasn’t the Romans doing this to him. It was the Jewish priests…THE RELIGIOUS MACHINE! The Romans weren't there.


This, to me is a clear cut indication that he's against authority and against the Fathers (priests) of the Church. That faith and a personal friendship and understanding inside of your heart with God, is more important than rituals..mantras, traditions or being a gold plated honorary member of the church of prestige. Any advice on how i should counter-attack? Much appreciated. Thank you.
:)
 
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