Only if you are looking up will you go?

Are you sure there will be a rapture as the pre-trib tribe claims?? Or will there even be a rapture?? In any case it will not be your belief in a rapture that will save you. Only the finished work of Christ and Him choosing you will save you.

I'm glad I don't have to make that determination.

Jesus said that no man knows the day or hour of his return so it would seem foolish to require us to believe that he is going to come at some certain point in order to go with him.

However, it does seem to be necessary to be expecting him to return, since we are several times admonished to not be caught by surprise. So according to my limited human reasoning (which is often flawed at best), I would say that as long as we are expecting his return it isn't necessary to have a complete understanding of when that event occurs in relation to other events. But if we aren't expecting his return then we are unprepared to partake of his promises and would be like the five foolish virgins who weren't prepared for the return of the bridegroom.

I would have to agree with Willis here. After all, if one believes that Jesus has already returned, don't they believe in a different Jesus?
I dont think it's necessary to be super educated about the rapture or even believe in a rapture so to speak, but faith in the fact that He is coming again is belief in the same Jesus.
So I agree that rev19" the testimony of Jesus Christ is prophecy", in that those who are raptured will believe that the world awaits the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ. Otherwise you are defiled by false doctrine.

In order to answer it is necessary to clarify a couple of things. 'Rapture' is only a term which identifies the event spoken of by Paul whereby the righteous living ascend into heaven following the resurrection of the dead in christ. The term rapture comes from the Latin Vulgate, an earlier translation of the bible into latin and 'rapturos' is the term that Paul used. There can be no doubt that there is a 'rapture', the only question is when it occurs.

The main purpose of the rapture is simply to unify the righteous living and dead in christ into one body for the marriage ceremony. I think everyone with the possible exception of the preterists, can agree on these basic points.

That is why I said it was necessary to be looking for Christ's return to fulfill the marriage contract (new covenant). If you aren't looking for his return or expecting the marriage contract to be fulfilled at a future time then you cannot be a partaker of the contract.

Once the rapture has passed the wedding ceremony is performed and the marriage consummated. It is too late to become the bride, but it would still be possible to be a wedding guest, since the marriage supper comes after the honeymoon.

The wedding guests are composed mainly of OT saints. The children of Israel are the wife of God. God issued Israel a certificate of divorce for harlotry (idol worship). Jesus Christ, as High Priest, is forbidden to marry a woman who is divorced, he must take a woman who is a virgin. That is why Jesus referred to the disciples as 'friends of the bridgroom'.

We shouldn't see those who get left behind as receiving a 'second chance' or that they are being 'taught a lesson'. Many people have died holding false beliefs, and in reality the bible is so complex that without doubt everyone of us holds some particular belief that isn't entirely accurate. As long as we live we have an opportunity to learn and correct our views to conform to God's truth.

Its by grace of God that we come to believe....and when we do we seem to not only believe but are filled with this desire to read the Word of God....Now with all the writing in the bible many of those that are true believers can read the bible over and over and God in his wisdom shows us veses that help us at just the right time or we hear a verse on the radio at just the right time or we read a christian magazine at just the right time.and God has pointed out some spirtitual things to me in them...The holy spirit teaches us at all times at just the right time.....when the preachar talks or a family member or friend or children<---my favorite source out of the mouth of babes

So many that do come to the lord will be quided by the holy spirit and read the bible and know at just the right time about the end times and when to start thinking about it daily or even hourly.sheesh 10 yrs ago i never thought i'd ever say that line ....thank you lord for opening up my eyes and ears...

like in Noahs time working and living as usual .......we might think its going to happen in the next hour or want it to but its in God's hands not ours ......I stop at times thinking "this would be a good time Lord' but sheesh it doesn't happen and I just go back to work....but one day 'poof'

Look up yes but remember wishfull thinking is only wishfull thinking .....Its faith we have from our maker that keeps us going ///and God is the creator of TIME

Well, Since my particular view was brought up in this thread already, I thought it prudent that I clarify what I actually believe about this subject as opposed to what was claimed I believe.

The main purpose of the rapture is simply to unify the righteous living and dead in christ into one body for the marriage ceremony. I think everyone with the possible exception of the preterists, can agree on these basic points.

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Willis, Amazingly enough, Preterists also agree on those basic points above....it's only on the 'timing' where we differ.(BTW, can you show from scripture that the living and dead in Christ are not already "one body" today?)

In order to answer it is necessary to clarify a couple of things. 'Rapture' is only a term which identifies the event spoken of by Paul whereby the righteous living ascend into heaven following the resurrection of the dead in christ.

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Well, thats the popular view anyway, but nowhere does this, (or any) scripture, say the righteous living ascend "into heaven" at the "rapture"

Paul says (and I paraphrase) the living "meet the Lord in the Air"...."so shall we ever be with the Lord"
Here's where the Greek becomes so crucial to our understanding.

Get out your concordance and follow along!

The Greek for "air" in this passage, is "aer" and describes a specific type of "air". Not the air where birds fly and higher, but the air in our immediate surroundings (from the ground to 8-10 feet up) and the "air" within us as in our "breath", also extending into the spiritual realm as the "breath" of Life. In short, ones feet don't even have to leave the ground to be "caught up" in the specific "aer" that Paul here describes.

Next is the Greek "apantesis" which is translated into the english "meet".

Apantesis is a very unique word used only 3 other times in scripture to describe a one of a kind type of meeting.

In each of it's uses, it referrs to a traveler going to a particular destination, a group of representatives from tha destination go out to "meet" (apantesis) him as he approaches, then immediatly escort him to his destination, which is where the representatives came from in the first place.

Again, in short, there is no room in the precidented usage of "apantesis" for Christians to do anything but immediatly escort Jesus back to earth after we "meet" him in the "aer" already within us.

There is nothing in the usage of "apantesis" that allows for a reverse of direction of the traveler (Jesus). The representatives are the only ones who immediatly turn around and head back to where they came from, escorting the traveler to His original destination.

Lastly,

However, it does seem to be necessary to be expecting him to return, since we are several times admonished to not be caught by surprise.

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Of course you know by now that I believe it was those who first recieved the message who were admonished not to be taken by suprise, not us, but lets assume we all are admonished not to be taken by suprise for a moment.
Clearly we can't divorce those who first recieved the warning from the admonishment, after all if it is for us, it also, by necessity, was for every generation of Christians before us.

The question I'd like to ask at this juncture, is this:

Are the dead in Christ in danger of missing Christs coming if they are not "looking for it". Remember they were admonished to "always be prepared" until He comes, not "until they die"., also they were admonsished to "hold fast to what they have till He comes lest no one "take their crown"

Doesn't this mean the dead in Christ are still in danger of having their crown stolen? Again, They were admonished to "Hold fast..till he comes, not "till they died" therefore that warning, and subsequent danger, must still exist for them, yes?

Peace in Christ,
P70

p70, no offense to you or others holding your particular views, but out of respect for those who believe in future fulfillment of prophecy, I have decided not to persue discussion of preterism vs premillennialism on any threads other than those already established for that purpose.

Originally posted by Willis Deal
...I have decided not to persue discussion of preterism vs premillennialism on any threads other than those already established for that purpose.

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Very Good. Willis. That's very mature of you.

Its silly to keep on going round and round debating the same points.

Staff Bless!

Originally posted by Willis Deal
p70, no offense to you or others holding your particular views, but out of respect for those who believe in future fulfillment of prophecy, I have decided not to persue discussion of preterism vs premillennialism on any threads other than those already established for that purpose.

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None taken Brother Willis!
I only responded to what I felt was a misrepresentation on your part about what preterists believe about the rapture.

[PARAGRAPH DELETED]

PS, Since I am one who holds the belief that prophesy continues to unfold and be fulfilled every day, on into the future, I appriciate your stated respect for my view.

YBIC,
P70

Willis : There is no way your getting left behind.

Thank you for being so understanding.

LOVE

Originally posted by Willis Deal
I have decided not to persue discussion of preterism vs premillennialism on any threads other than those already established for that purpose.

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Hi Willis,
I am happy to go along with your descision, however, the bulk of my post had nothing to do with preterism vs futurism, but with the nature of the "rapture".

None of the texts I cited, none of the greek definitions I cited, and nothing about my posted understanding of the "nature" of the rapture prohibits anyone who holds to it's "future" fulfillment from agreeing with my observations.

So, it would seem to me you could ignore any implication I made in that post about my belief in the "timing" and go ahead and address my comments on the Nature without jeopardizing your stated ethics, integrity and respect for this thread.

I promise to refrain from any future discussion about the raptures "timing" here, but I believe the issue of the "nature" can be explored by all of us, leaving our "pre-post-mid-au-pret" hats at the door!

Whaddya say?

Wow, you guys sure lost me.

I've read the book several times, cover to cover and I still don't get how there can be so many varied opinions of what will or will not happen.

In my opinion, the only applicable verse that answers the question is John 3:16... "whosoever believeth in Him shall not parish but have ever lasting life."

I don't find any qualifying sentences after that. No ifs, no buts, no ands -- no go to this church, no you must look up, no dress this way or that, no translate everything in Greek --- no nothing.

Sometimes it makes me sad that we foget how simple it is. "For God so love the world..."

(Just my two cents)

Hello ThrdJohn, Thank you for your eloquent and thoughtful reply. I appriciate you taking the time to address my points. (Note to Willis, this is exactly the type of engagement I was referring to in my last post to you)

Originally posted by ThrdJohn13

Just so I’m not understood, I’m an amilennialist.

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I assume you meant to say "just so I'm not misunderstood...." because if your intend was to be misunderstood, it didn't work.

Originally posted by ThrdJohn13

Do you study the Greek language? Are you really reading the Greek NT, or are you using an interlinear, or what? Are you positive you know Greek well enough to draw your conclusions?

I’ve been studying Greek for a while now…That Greek word “aer” that you pointed out there…you said that it does not refer to where the birds fly. However, in many places in the New Testament, that word is used, and means precisely that (Matt. 6:26, 8:20; Luke 8:5; Acts 10:12, 11:6).

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I consider myself a student of the Greek Language, but it is true that I have only a slender aquaintance with it. I use Strongs coupled with the YLT most often when attempting to gain understanding about Biblical usage of the Greek.

Even though it appeared to me from the boldness of your assertions, that you are more knowledgable about the Greek than I, a quick search of the scriptures you cited for the Greek word "aer" quickly changed my opinion. The references you gave in fact do not use the word "aer" at all! All verses you pointed to use the word "Ouranos" which does in fact mean:
"The vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it, the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced."
Both it's Biblical usage and etymology carry with it the idea of elevation; the sky, where birds fly and Higher.

However, aer, which is the word Paul uses in the 1 Thess. passage, has a diferent meaning:

Aer,: from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow) the air, particularly the lower and denser air as distinguished from the higher and rarer air

May I be so bold as to now suggest you take your own advice and "be careful with the Greek"?

Here are all uses of 'aer" in scripture aside from the 1 Thess. pasage in question:

Ac 22:23 And as they cried out, and cast off their clothes, and threw dust into the air,

1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.

Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Re 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Re 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

All of these uses of "aer" refer to the spiritual realm, the air within us as our breath, or the air in our immediate surroundings. Quite distinct from the "Ouranos" "air" where birds fly and higher, where the Clouds are, where Lightning originates.

I find no scriptural basis to conclude that the definition of "aer" should be replaced with the definition of "Ouranos" in 1 Thess 4:17 as you seem to be suggesting. I stand staunchly by my previous assertion that "ones feet do not have to leave the ground to be "caught up" in the "aer" Paul describes."

As for your brief take on "apantesis", while it may have a broader meaning outside of scripture, I believe when it comes to scripture, usage trumps etymology, therefore it is quite acceptable to let the explicit use of the word elsewhere in scripture define it's implicit use here.

As for "Harpazo", Harpazo could refer to the body being "caught up" but it could also refer to the Christian being "caught up" without the body. It is used this way in:
2 Corinthians 12:2-4
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago; whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows; such a one was caught up (harpazo) to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man; whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows; 4 how he was caught up (harpazo) into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Paul doesn't know whether the body was involved in this man's "snatching away", therefore we can not say with any certainty that the physical body is necessary in the harpazo event, for Paul wouldn't have expressed this uncertainty if it was.

Again , I thank you for engaging me and look forward to your next reply.
YBIC,
P70

duh ....I didn't know that posting my views would be attacked .......so i'm pretrib ....big deal .....does this mean every time a subject is brought up that mentions pretrib in here its going to have someone thats post trib post lengthy post debating a reply....

Ok there are pre trib people ....they are going to heaven

ok there are post trib people....they are going to heaven

big deal...the original subject ( Only if you are looking up will you go? ) truthfully doesn't have anything to do with debating pre or post trib

Also at my age, and education I don't think its proper to debate continuously on a subject....as brothers and sisters in christ we could ask admin t have a post or pretrib forum and all that want to debate it can do so in there ...but sheesh i wasn't bring it up to debate i was just mentioning it..........

As far as I am concerned, the rapture has already begun. Because the resurrection power of God is already at work in my life to prepare me for when Jesus comes. Those who set their hope on Him, will yield & allow God to do a work in them and in their life so they will be ready and prepared. I do not plan to die, I plan to be transformed when Jesus comes. Death is a enemy and we will have so much of the power of God in us, during this latter rain, that the enemy will have no power over us.

One thing is for sure, I am not saying this "in the flesh" because in the flesh there is no way I would ever be able to prepare myself apart from God and the work of the Holy Spirit of God in me. But "I know what the Lord can do", and I know that God can accomplish more in a moment of time then I could accomplish in a life time apart from Him.

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming.

Those who are "looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ", will allow Him to do a work in them to purify and to deny ungodly and worldly lusts. Titus 2:13

>>I don't find any qualifying sentences after that. No ifs, no buts, no ands

I find a qualifying verse after John 3:16

John 3:21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

If your walking in darkness and your deeds are evil, then your not the believer that John is talking about in 3:16.

Every promise in the Book is conditional, if we do our part, we can be sure that God will do his part of the covenant or promise.

Numbers 23:19
"God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?