O/F OSAS vs. fall from grace

I am half and half on this. I believe that once you are saved you can not be plucked from the Fathers hand. But I think that once you are saved if you choose to return to your sinful life and reject the gift of salvation you can lose your salvation.

Me, too. I have always had problems with the one or the other view. There are hypotheticals on both sides that I can justify or not justify.

This is typical of the arguments against Catholics. I don't think the "fall from grace" position necessarily means a "works salvation." At least, it doesn't mean that to the Catholic Church.

I like the God's hand metaphor. God doesn't pick us up and place us in His hand. We have to climb into it by ourselves. (He does leave a ladder handy, LOL...it's shaped like a Cross)

Just as we are capable of climbing up into His hand, we are also capable of either climbing out or falling out. God would never PUSH us out, though. The temptation of the flesh is always going to be there, it will be there until we die. People are going to lean over the edge of God's hand, just to see what's there. They WILL slip. If they cry for help, God will give it to them. But he doesn't GLUE you to His hand. The Free Will that got you in there is still around. It's the Free Will which will make you fall out.

You can fall out a million times, though, and turn around and climb back in. THAT'S the Eternal Grace which is available.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

Originally posted by VOW
This is typical of the arguments against Catholics. I don't think the "fall from grace" position necessarily means a "works salvation." At least, it doesn't mean that to the Catholic Church.

I like the God's hand metaphor. God doesn't pick us up and place us in His hand. We have to climb into it by ourselves. (He does leave a ladder handy, LOL...it's shaped like a Cross)

Just as we are capable of climbing up into His hand, we are also capable of either climbing out or falling out. God would never PUSH us out, though. The temptation of the flesh is always going to be there, it will be there until we die. People are going to lean over the edge of God's hand, just to see what's there. They WILL slip. If they cry for help, God will give it to them. But he doesn't GLUE you to His hand. The Free Will that got you in there is still around. It's the Free Will which will make you fall out.

You can fall out a million times, though, and turn around and climb back in. THAT'S the Eternal Grace which is available.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

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Yeah I think I'm going to have to agree on this one.

Vow,

"This is typical of the arguments against Catholics. I don't think the "fall from grace" position necessarily means a "works salvation." At least, it doesn't mean that to the Catholic Church."

Okay? i do not think this thread is about Catholics at all but whatever floats your boat. But this is about 2 protestant theological viewpoints.

"I like the God's hand metaphor. God doesn't pick us up and place us in His hand. We have to climb into it by ourselves. (He does leave a ladder handy, LOL...it's shaped like a Cross)"

Okay but how do you climb?

"Just as we are capable of climbing up into His hand, we are also capable of either climbing out or falling out. God would never PUSH us out, though. The temptation of the flesh is always going to be there, it will be there until we die. People are going to lean over the edge of God's hand, just to see what's there. They WILL slip. If they cry for help, God will give it to them. But he doesn't GLUE you to His hand. The Free Will that got you in there is still around. It's the Free Will which will make you fall out."

Okay. So what do you do to climb out of God's hand?

"You can fall out a million times, though, and turn around and climb back in. THAT'S the Eternal Grace which is available."

So it is a cooperative grace. correct? You and God working together for salvation. But if it is not a works based salvation at all then what do you do to help with your salvation? If there is something that you can do to help out would that be a work? I think it is one thing to say that you must accept God's plan of salvation and another to say that you can accept and then reject it. But before I am looked on as a Catholic basher I do not think Catholics are not Christians. i just do not believe in their theological view of how one is saved. Like I would not believe the smae way as a 5 point Calvinist either.

monkeyboy

"Just as we are capable of climbing up into His hand, we are also capable of either climbing out or falling out. God would never PUSH us out, though. "

So in essence you can over power Christ's sacrifice by your own actions?

Personally I dont' think if you have choosen God you will ever not choose him. That is like saying, okay, I'm going to cut off all my limbs because ...well just because. People just don't do that.

To Louis:

That is like saying, okay, I'm going to cut off all my limbs because

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Come ON, Louis, people do stupid things every day.

I'm saying the same FREE WILL that got you INTO God's hand is always there, always present. GRACE can HELP you with the Free Will, to choose God to begin with. But just as someone can say "NO" to God's INITIAL Grace, someone can also be stupid enough to throw it away.

The beauty of Grace is that you can always, ALWAYS come back. God holds no resentment to the Prodigal Son.

The Prodigal Son was essentially "saved" when he first lived at home, Louis. He had whatever he needed. And he was STUPID enough to walk out the door. His father GRIEVED when he walked out, but he didn't tie him to a chair to keep him there.

The whole premise of OSAS doesn't allow Free Will to ever rear its ugly head again. The Party Line is, "Well, if someone sins, then he really wasn't saved to begin with." You honestly cannot make a judgment like that! Salvation is God's exclusive knowledge. Saying, "he wasn't really saved to begin with" is just a handy excuse for the existence of Free Will.


Peace be with you,
~VOW

"Come ON, Louis, people do stupid things every day. "

yes, stupid, but no one wants to give up the greatest thing they ever had, just ask someone to give up the one thing that is most precious to them...the only answer that is affirmative you will get is, yes, if God said I had to.

"But just as someone can say "NO" to God's INITIAL Grace, someone can also be stupid enough to throw it away. "

I would disagree. When they say no, they are the old creature, you can't throw it away because you are a new creation.

"The Prodigal Son was essentially "saved" when he first lived at home, Louis. "

I think you grossly misapproprate that pariable, but for the sake of it..when he was gone, did he stop being a son of that man? Nope OSAS.

"The Party Line is, "Well, if someone sins, then he really wasn't saved to begin with." "

No, I don't. If you sin continually and habitually with no remorse, no struggling, then yes, you have some cause for concern. Christians do sin, they just dont' have a sin nature anymore..new creations, new nature. I never said Christians don't sin, don't put words in my mouth

To Louis:

I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I can't abide it when someone does it to me, so I do apologize if I came off like that.

I think the Prodigal Son is an EXCELLENT example of Fall from Grace. To me, God's gift of salvation is like the Good Samaritan, who picks up the wounded stranger from the side of the road, and lovingly cares for him, out of simple goodness. The man was literally pulled back from death by the Samaritan, which is what God's Grace does for us. Free Will says the injured man COULD have looked the Samaritan in the eye and said, "Don't touch me, you dirty Samaritan!"

The Prodigal Son had it wonderful at home. He had a roof over his head, a father who paid the bills, food in his belly....and he walked out the door. And Dad welcomed him home, when he came back broke and hungry and contrite. But suppose, Louis, the Prodigal Son, after he was fed and had clean clothes and the nice ring from his dad, suppose he started fighting with his brother again. And the grass started looking greener down the road. If he says, "Hey, Dad, I'm outta here," will his father tie him to a chair, then?

Not only will his father let him go, and weep nonstop when the kid flies out the door....guess who will kill ANOTHER fatted calf when the kid shows up, tired, broke, and hungry again?

According to Jesus, that father is going to do that not seven times, but seventy times seven.

Who's to say the Prodigal Son wasn't GRATEFUL and SINCERE when he returned home the first time?

God can't keep you "saved," Louis. He can't thwart Free Will, no matter how much it pains Him to watch that STUPID PRODIGAL SON walk out the door.

And Hon, that's a real-life situation that happens every day, with the mixed up teens who run away, come home, run away, come home, and run away. But most human parents don't have the strength to keep forgiving, seventy times seven.

Thank God, that God has that strength!!


Peace be with you,
~VOW

"God can't keep you "saved," Louis. "

That's not what scripture says. Christ's sacrifice was once and for all. If you fall away and ever come back, the it wasn't once and for all to that person. AGain, something you missed, when the prodigal son left, he never stopped being a son now did he? Its talking about how if you are a christian it is okay to screw up. God forgives. We are always saved, the saints are always preserved, they don't fall away, its impossible.

[GLOW=red] "I think you grossly misapproprate that pariable, but for the sake of it..when he was gone, did he stop being a son of that man? Nope OSAS." [/GLOW]

When the son was in the foreign land did he have his father's protection? When he was in this land was he recieving help from his father? If the son would have died in the foreign land would he have been forever seperated from his father?

Just alittle something to think about

I believe that OSAS is true as well as Free Will.
In other words, once we choose to believe in Jesus Christ and recieve Him as our Lord and Savior, we are eternally secure.
I don't remember it too well, but someone presented as an example in another forum the bondservants in ancient Israel. If they wanted to stay with their master, they had to choose to and declare that choice to their master. After they made that choice, the servant's ear was pierced with some tool called an awl, and the servant was declared to permanently belong to the master.
I think that is in Numbers.
BTW: OSAS is NOT a license to sin. I have heard this argument before, and it sickens me.

Amen.

-- New King James
Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.

black I would think that is a closer thing to what Christ really ment by the paraible.

"When the son was in the foreign land did he have his father's protection? When he was in this land was he recieving help from his father? If the son would have died in the foreign land would he have been forever seperated from his father?

Just alittle something to think about "

Chuck the point is, did he ever stop being a son? Nope. Does God let christians be out of what appears to be his control..YUP. Oh..what if questions are better left to chance, what if I was God..? What if Adam never sinned and eve did. We can only guess at the answers, so they aren't worth looking at, its a pure guess.

LOL Louis

I just posted questions to think about and actually can be answered. The son was not under his father's protection his father was not helping him in the circumstances and situation he was in, and if the son would have died in the field slopping pigs then he would have been seperated from his father. The questions have answers.

Umm..the father wasn't omnipotent either, so what's your point? it was an ANAOLOGY. read Thomas Aquantious (sp) writtings on religious language.