Church of the Nativity

Yauming · Apr 8, 2002

Originally posted by parousia70
RKF, Please explain to all the Christians here how anyone who absolutely, flatly and totally rejects Christ as Lord and Savior can be Gods Chosen People.
This ought to be good.

Hello,

God is good!

Jeremiah 33:24-26
24 "Have you not noticed that these people are saying, 'The Lord has rejected the two kingdoms he chose'? So they despise my people and no longer regard them as a nation. This is what the Lord says: 'If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, 26 then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and have compassion on them.' "

God has chosen the Jews to be His chosen people. They did not chose Him. At the moment, many of them do not call upon His name but one day they will.

As Paul wrote in Romans 11:25-26: "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.""

Ephesian · Apr 8, 2002

Am I missing something or being insensitive here. Hopefully not irreverent. But, it is just a building. Somehow, I think if people get so attached to the building it can become a form of object worship. If the Israelies need to use a smoke bomb to get the terrorists out...so be it.

And they are terrorists. The average everyday working stiff doesn't usually carry around automatic weapons and hold them up over the wall getting some shots in before running inside, not for sanctuary but for leverage, knowing that the Israelies would hesitate or balk at storming a Church for fear of a major backlash against them.

Make no mistake. Most of those non-combatants are hostages. If they were to leave, some of that leverage would be gone.

This is not a ringing indorsement for Israel to just kill with impunity. Attrocities exist on both sides of the barrel. But terrorism cannot, must not, be rewarded with inaction. Inaction will only embolden them to commit more attacks. Our inaction with the '93 WTC garrage bombing, two embassy bombings, and the U.S.S. Cole bombing led to the WTC attacks on 9/11.

But now I'm just rambling. It's a mess over there and I certainly have no answers. I do think these are just more birth pangs leading up to the return of our Savior.

davo · Apr 8, 2002

Originally posted by Yauming

Hello,

God is good!

Jeremiah 33:24-26
24 "Have you not noticed that these people are saying, 'The Lord has rejected the two kingdoms he chose'? So they despise my people and no longer regard them as a nation. This is what the Lord says: 'If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, 26 then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and have compassion on them.' "

God has chosen the Jews to be His chosen people. They did not chose Him. At the moment, many of them do not call upon His name but one day they will.

As Paul wrote in Romans 11:25-26: "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.""

G'day Yauming,

You've got half the story. God indeed did have compassion "on them" and brought restoration -this He did in Christ through the Eternal New Covenant i.e., the Gospel. Those who in faith joined themselves to Christ [the True Vine i.e., the True Israel] were and are restored to sonship -Praise God this was and is not limited to fleshly ethnic Israel. God HAS taken down the ethnic dividing wall (Eph 2:11-16) HOW DARE WE REBUILD IT!!

davo

davo · Apr 8, 2002

Ephesian you said:

"Attrocities exist on both sides of the barrel. But terrorism cannot, must not, be rewarded with inaction."

I absolutely agree 100%. However the problem is one of semantics. When Palestinains commit attrocities (and they do) Dispensational Christians jump up and down shouting TERRORISM! TERRORISM! But, when Israelis commit attrocities (and they do) these very same people go strangely quiet and mutter under their breath "self-defence". This is in IMO duplicitous and sick.

davo

RKF · Apr 8, 2002

As Paul wrote in Romans 11:25-26: "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.""

This should do it ......thanks Yauming

davo · Apr 8, 2002

Ron, if you're "still waiting" for the Deliverer will come from Zion, then you've missed it -He Came! All Israel being saved occured when the fulness of the Gentiles came in -when salvation was fully established at Christ's Parousia in AD70.

"All Israel" means all whom God chose -it isn't limited along racial lines -you need to read ST Paul's Epistles and Romans in context.

A text out of context is a pretext -i.e., just used to say what we want it to say.

davo

Ephesian · Apr 8, 2002

Originally posted by davo
I absolutely agree 100%. However the problem is one of semantics. When Palestinains commit attrocities (and they do) Dispensational Christians jump up and down shouting TERRORISM! TERRORISM! But, when Israelis commit attrocities (and they do) these very same people go strangely quiet and mutter under their breath "self-defence".
davo [/B]

That may be. This I do know, suicide bombers specifically target innocent unarmed civilians (super markets, buses, clubs, busy streets, etc.) where the Israelies target the ones with the guns. I am sure innocent Palastinians die as well, but not as a matter of policy, UNLIKE THE PALASTINIANS.

davo · Apr 8, 2002

Originally posted by Ephesian

That may be. This I do know, suicide bombers specifically target innocent unarmed civilians (super markets, buses, clubs, busy streets, etc.) where the Israelies target the ones with the guns. I am sure innocent Palastinians die as well, but not as a matter of policy, UNLIKE THE PALASTINIANS.

Well perhaps, just perhaps if Israel had a change of policy so might the Palestinians -they seem to be angry because Israel keeps pushing into their territory -I'm in no way advocating some of the Palestinian extremists tactics, however how far do you get pushed before you react??

davo

Josiah · Apr 8, 2002

Originally posted by VOW
A church is the House of God. Period.

If you mean the church BUILDING, that's incorrect and is nowhere located in scripture (Inspired scripture, anyway). WE are the body of Christ and the Temple of God where God dwells.

1 Corinthians 6 -
19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, AND YOU ARE THAT TEMPLE.
(emphasis mine)

Dave Ulchers · Apr 8, 2002

Originally posted by allieisme
You dont need to be so harsh.

Hey, I don't like labels. Especially when people are being labeled terrorists without any evidence, but based on their race and/or what side of a fence they were born on. I'm not accusing anyone of doing that -- and, let's face it, we're human and prone to oversimplifying things -- but I'm not afraid to hold a mirror up to the face of someone who is quick to make a judgement and they can decide for themselves if they like what they see.

As for terrorism, I deplore it. But, no one is innocent. "For all have sinned, and all have fallen short of the glory of God," as St. Paul says. Israeli citizens are paying the salaries of their soldiers, paying for their helicopters and missiles and guns and bullets. They elect politicians who don't seem to care about justice, but rather let the soldiers kill Palestinians almost at random without reprisal, just to make a point in revenge for suicide bombers. That's called racism. The citizens of Israel can't pretend there isn't blood on their hands.

I don't believe it is OK to kill someone for stealing your property, or hiring and supplying murders to kill your friends and neighbors. But I don't call such people innocent.

Back to the Church of the Nativity, here's the they say / we say. Personally, I believe the priest.

The Israeli army says Palestinian gunmen provoked a fire which broke out near the Church of the Nativity on Monday.

Gunmen had opened fire from a belltower, wounding two Israeli border policemen in a nearby rooftop look-out, an army officer told Reuters news agency.

He said the Israelis returned fire and a smoke grenade started the blaze in a second-floor meeting hall overlooking the Basilica of St Catherine, adjacent to the Church of the Nativity.

One Palestinian gunman was shot dead in the battle, the Israeli source said.

But a priest inside the church, Father Amjad Sabbara, told the BBC that the Palestinian killed was a police officer who had been trying to douse the flames.

He said the blaze had burned for an hour, destroying a piano, chairs, altar cloths and ceremonial cups.

Father Sabbara estimated that there were 240 people in the church. Some were armed, he said, but they were "not using their arms".

The Mayor of Bethlehem, Hanna Nasser, told the BBC that mosaics inside the Basilica of St Catherine had been "affected by the bullets".

VOW · Apr 8, 2002

THE Church is the Body of Christ. But the building where people worship is called a House of God, and it should be treated with respect.

And the Jews are God's Chosen People. God made his Covenant with Abraham, and I don't recall any conversation that God had with anyone where he "unchose" them. By our belief in Jesus, we are "adopted" into the Jewish people, although we are not required to be circumcized as Abraham's descendants. We SHARE in being the elect. Through the Last Supper, we fulfill the command by God that the Passover be celebrated.

God doesn't break His Promises, people. If He does, who knows what other covenants He might withdraw!

As for the Jews not accepting Christ as the Messiah, that is something for God to untangle. I'm not going to touch it, I figure the Almighty has enough wisdom to figure it out. I'm just happy that Jesus allows the Gentiles to share in the original Covenant, through the NEW Covenant.

And FYI, the Israelis aren't all that innocent when it comes to shooting. The Palestinians have let the world know that countless children have died from Israeli bullets. I was particularly sickened by a story where a Palestinian woman, IN LABOR, was detained at a checkpoint and forced to disrobe completely to prove that she was indeed pregnant. When her husband complained, he was killed.

War is HELL, folks!

Peace be with you,
~VOW

davo · Apr 10, 2002

I read somewhere the other day some kind-hearted knuckle-head said: "go Israel go!" -well really??

Just got this off the wires:

Women, children expelled from refugee camp: reports

The Israeli army is reported to have expelled some 800 women and children from the Jenin refugee camp while conducting security sweeps in the northern West Bank region.

An International Committee for Red Cross worker who was allowed into Jenin, told UNICEF officials the women and children were forced out on the streets where they had no protection, food or clothing.

The Israeli army says 200 Palestinians have now surrendered in Jenin where 13 of its soldiers were killed yesterday.

In Nablus there was a major ground and air assault on the old city overnight and fighting is continuing.

At least 60 Palestinians have died there and many bodies are still lying in the streets, surrounded and cut off by 200 tanks.

"Violence breeds nothing but violence," he said.

"This awful thing that has happened in the West Bank the death of more than 300 or 400 people in the camp in Jenin denying people every right to humanitarian assistance, breeds nothing but violence."

coastie · Apr 10, 2002

Dave Ulchers wrote...

The Israeli army says Palestinian gunmen provoked a fire which broke out near the Church of the Nativity on Monday.

Gunmen had opened fire from a belltower, wounding two Israeli border policemen in a nearby rooftop look-out, an army officer told Reuters news agency.

He said the Israelis returned fire and a smoke grenade started the blaze in a second-floor meeting hall overlooking the Basilica of St Catherine, adjacent to the Church of the Nativity.

One Palestinian gunman was shot dead in the battle, the Israeli source said.

But a priest inside the church, Father Amjad Sabbara, told the BBC that the Palestinian killed was a police officer who had been trying to douse the flames.

He said the blaze had burned for an hour, destroying a piano, chairs, altar cloths and ceremonial cups.

Father Sabbara estimated that there were 240 people in the church. Some were armed, he said, but they were "not using their arms".

The Mayor of Bethlehem, Hanna Nasser, told the BBC that mosaics inside the Basilica of St Catherine had been "affected by the bullets".

This is horrible! I agree that a man attempting to put a fire out in a church being killed is horrible!

The only excuse would be the circumstances. While I in no way am saying that I was there nor am I saying that there is nothing wrong with what happened, but in this specific innstance I want you to try and put yourself there.

For a second pretend you are an Israeli soldier ordered to perch on a building and shoot any threats that you see inside of the building. You've been taking gunfire from inside the building all day. You see a uniform flash in front of a window. You don't care what he's doing, at this point you are shooting to stay alive.

War is a terrible place to be. Unless you've been there yourself, you really can't judge what others have done because of the clouds of emotions like fear, and the fog of war.

My scenario may not have been the case, I just want to point out that often these accounts come off one-sided whether the source is trying to be or not.

God Bless,

Zach

Dave Ulchers · Apr 11, 2002

Originally posted by coastie
For a second pretend you are an Israeli soldier ordered to perch on a building and shoot any threats that you see inside of the building. You've been taking gunfire from inside the building all day.

Nice scenario. Problem is, no one has been shooting from inside the building according to the people inside the building, which includes priests and nuns, etc. who wouldn't lie about that sort of thing. And the army won't let the media any where near the place to obtain an impartial viewpoint anyway.

Latest from the BBC:

The siege of one of Christianity's most sacred sites is now entering its second week, with neither side backing down.

About 200 Palestinians, many of them armed, are still refusing to leave the Church of the Nativity, where a Palestinian policeman died in a gun-fight early on Monday. His body remains in the church.

The Israeli army says its soldiers have taken up several positions in Manger Square, but it is still refusing to pull back or to allow journalists to reach the area. Warning shots are fired at those who try.

Battle-scarred

Church leaders have called on Israel to "go in peace." But there is no sign of that yet.

The past week has left Bethlehem a battered, battle-scarred city, its people apprehensive about how the stand-off at the Church of the Nativity will end.

The streets leading to Manger Square are littered with broken glass and spent bullet shells.

Water spews from broken pipes. The windows of the Lutheran Church's new art and craft centre have all been shot out, and cars crushed by Israeli tanks line the road.

Onslaught fears

Even though the Israeli army has repeatedly promised not to storm the Church of the Nativity, many believe it might.

"I expect Israeli commandos will go in," says Richard Elias, the acting manager of the Star hotel.

"I hope it'll end peacefully but I'm not sure. Israel must withdraw. Ariel Sharon has made his point - that's enough."

The Star is the only hotel that has kept its doors open throughout the 18-month intifada.

Now, its only inhabitants are journalists, and the restaurant window bears the bullet-holes of shots fired at a cameraman trying to film from it last week.

A convoy of reporters trying to take a sick colleague to hospital had to turn back when the road in front of them was raked by machine gun fire on Tuesday afternoon.

The BBC team in Bethlehem put on flak jackets and helmets inside our make-shift office after shots were fired just outside the hotel.

Ephesian · Apr 11, 2002

Originally posted by Dave Ulchers

Nice scenario. Problem is, no one has been shooting from inside the building according to the people inside the building, which includes priests and nuns, etc. who wouldn't lie about that sort of thing.

No. They wouldn't lie...unless maybe, a gun was pointed at their head. But that can't be, the Palastinians are the poster picture of piety. They have such a great respect for Christianity that they checked their guns in at the door.

The Palastinians blew it. They could have taken the Ghandi approach. They could have truly pursued peace with peace and let the whole ball clearly fall in Israel's lap. They could have had the whole world eating out of their hand. But...that is not what they are all about. They are about violence. They are about the complete and utter distruction of Israel.

Israel is not pure. Israel has killed many innocent people. (although if their enemies had the courage to wear uniforms the civilian casualties would probably be much less) Israel has made many mistakes. But one mistake they won't make, and that is to quietly stand in line and do as they are told while they slowly proceed forward to their destruction. This is a war. And just because the Palastinians use their children on the front lines, it doesn't change the fact that it is a war. The Israelies can not afford to lose. The first war they lose will also be their last.

I am not bashing the average Palastinian Joe. I am sure they just want to go to work and come home and enjoy their family. Those I truly feel sorry for, but those are not the one's running the show.

coastie · Apr 11, 2002

Dave,

It appears that you have your point of view and refuse to admit the the Israelies are anything short of evil. Despite conflicting reports you cling to the one's that you appreciate. I have learned from you however, that the Palestinians are not the only guilty party and that the Israelies are not an innocent party.

You will stick to your views no matter what you hear. However, MSNBC said yesterdsay morning that the violence at the Church of the Nativity started when Israelies were taking gun fire from the bell tower of the church. You may deny this fact all you want, which will only make your argument seem even more one-sided. It was a pleasure debating with you but I am done now. I have respect for people who believe so strongly in a point of view. Determined people like yourself may appear close-minded to some but to me it is clear that you are very passionate about these political issues.

Thank you

God Bless

coastie · Apr 11, 2002

Very Well said Ephesian,

I have decided that no one country is to blame for everything, and the one who instigated the whole mess
has been debated and debated. Let's not beat a dead horse.

amie · Apr 11, 2002

Originally posted by Dave Ulchers
Um, msnbc?

The people inside that church are guests of the Catholic Church. Do you have any evidence that they are "terrorists"? Or are you the one spouting propaganda?

don't bite Dave....

VOW · Apr 11, 2002

This situation is more than just politics...it's got every single volatile subject rolled into one big flaming, bleeding mess. Fact is, NOBODY is handling it correctly. The Israelis are digging in their heels, saying "Never Again." The front-line Palestinians are consumed with a hatred that was very carefully cultivated by their leaders.

There was an old, old children's poem about the Gingham Dog and the Calico Cat. They hated each other, and they fought continually. Finally, there was nothing left but just shredded fabric, stuffing, and eyeballs. I'm afraid that is what the Mideast is headed for.

Tanks and guns and knives and bombs are nasty enough... but it would take just ONE nuclear explosive to really ruin all civilization.

I can't pick sides like you'd do for sports teams, and root for a winner. In this situation, there IS no winner, ever. We can only pray that somehow, some way, if not these leaders, then the next generation of leaders, will be able to push aside the feelings of rage and try to find a solution that is agreeable, or at least tolerable, or maybe even the least offensive, to both.

Peace be with you,
~VOW

amie · Apr 11, 2002

Originally posted by coastie
This stun grenade was not thrown to burn the church or the clergy, it was thrown because there are terrorists in the church that are barcading themselves.

More Media Propaganda! Consider the source

Coastie,
I agree with this statement COMPLETELY!

Amie

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