I/R Irresistable vs. Resistable grace

Blackhawk · Apr 11, 2002

*** Okay this is the 4th of 5 posts about Calvinism vs. Arminism that I promised in the Round Table. I want to offer a few reminders though before we get started.

1. This is an in house debate. Non Christ-like behavior and name calling like "You are not a Christian" or "All Arminians or Calvinist are not Christians" will not be tolerated. Both sides are Christians. We can disagree and tell each other that the other is wrong but in a Christ like way and always rembering that both sides are Christian brothers and sisters. So do not be surpised if your post is deleted if it contains any of the above or anything in that same vein.

2. In my titles I might overemphasizes what each one teaches. For example both Arminism and Calvinsim teach Total depravity but Arminsism also teaches that God gives you only enough grace so that you can make a choice. so there is a human element although God does the saving. so I chose to overempahize that side in my titles to make it easy to distiguish between the 2 different sides.

3. There is a lot of misinformation about Calvinsim and especially Arminism. Web pagees are a bad source many times for information. So just watch out.

4. I will try to be as objective as possible but I will fail to some extent. So know that I come from a particular point of view. But again I will try to be as objective as possible.

5. I hope these threads will be a encouragement and a learning experience for everyone. If not then I will delete them myself. So if these turn into name calling matches like they can I will delete them. So no one ruin it for everyone else. okay?

BH6

Dave Ulchers · Apr 11, 2002

For starters, what is Arminism? Who thought it up?

Blackhawk · Apr 11, 2002

CAlvinism

Irresistible grace- Also called efficacious (effective) grace. Basically if God comes and reveals Himself to us and His plan for salvation we have no choice but to accept God's plan. He is Irresistable. So this kind of grace is always effective. It always results in salvation. There is a genral call to salvation to everyone but the call to the elect is nonresistable. Man's will is still there but will always freely choose God and His grace. Basically we can't say no to God's offer of salvation because we will never want to say no.

Arminainism

Resistalbe grace-
The Holy Spirit calls everyone to be saved. We can though resist that call. So if the person believes only then does the Spirit actually save them. Basically we can say no to God's offer of salvation.

Christi · Apr 11, 2002

Yep. Arminainism for me here, too.

StogusMaximus · Apr 11, 2002

I agree with Arminian on this point.

Blackhawk · Apr 11, 2002

Dave,

"For starters, what is Arminism? Who thought it up?"

It is based on the theological positions of Jacob Arminius. It is how some look at the Bible so in they would say God thought it up. Major Arminian thinkers are the Wesleys and a major Arminian type church would be the Methodist church. Arminianism is just a theological view. It is not meant to be believed over scripure it is a way of synthesizing what some believe scripture says.

Does that help?

BH6

Dave Ulchers · Apr 11, 2002

OK, thanks.

ZiSunka · Apr 11, 2002

I don't understand the concept of irresistable grace.

Does that mean that God forces us to accept Him? And that He doesn't allow others to have His grace, even though they might want it?

It doesn't make any sense, if that is what it means! Why would God create people that He wouldn't want to be with in eternity?

Wouldn't that make Him cruel, not loving?

Mandy · Apr 11, 2002

That is what i have wondered about too. Would it be just for God to allow people to go to hell who had no choice because they were not chosen? I know God is sovereign, but I believe man has to decide whom he will serve. I firmly believe that God is willing that none should perish.

Blackhawk · Apr 11, 2002

"Does that mean that God forces us to accept Him? And that He doesn't allow others to have His grace, even though they might want it?"

It matters how you look at it. A Calvinist would say no. God just changes your desires so that you will accept God. See it goes back to the totally depraved thing. WE will not want to accept God by ourselves becasue we are totally depraved. So God has to change our desires or regenerate us so that we will accept Him. I guess in a way you can say that God forces us to accept Him but no one would want to if He did not force us. But saying that God forces us is a little misleading. It is more like God giving us grace s othat we can choose Him and that because we see Him we want to accept Him because God is so great.

"It doesn't make any sense, if that is what it means! Why would God create people that He wouldn't want to be with in eternity?"

Good question. Would God be good if creates people with a 0% chance to get to Heaven? Luther would say that God's ways are higher than ours. you know the whole Job thing. All of us have get to that point at some point. We can't know everything about God because He has not revealed it to us. But does this satisfactorily answer the question?

"Wouldn't that make Him cruel, not loving?"

Good question again. Any takers?

BH6

BH6

ZiSunka · Apr 11, 2002

Sounds like hogwash to me.

I don't believe in that at all, because it makes us puppets and God the puppetmaster.

Reformationist · Apr 11, 2002

Originally posted by lambslove
Does that mean that God forces us to accept Him? And that He doesn't allow others to have His grace, even though they might want it?

You must understand that the fallen man, that's every single person after the fall of man except Jesus, prior to their regeneration, doesn't want God's grace. He not keeping back from them something their fallen nature desires. Their fallen nature is at enmity with God. The fallen nature is everything God is not, i.e. unrighteous.

Romans 3:10-18 says it clearly.

There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes.

That is the fallen man you're referring to. Does it sound like they want God's grace?

It doesn't make any sense, if that is what it means! Why would God create people that He wouldn't want to be with in eternity?

It's not about them. It's about the love and mercy He shows those He chooses. Think about it. If you were going to die along with everyone else and then God said, "Not lambslove. He's/She's mine." Wouldn't you recognize His mercy more because it wasn't just a blanket that covered everyone. You know you didn't deserve His mercy, just like the others didn't deserve it. But, now you understand that it wasn't because He hated the others but rather because He decided you would be spared and become His child.

God is not cruel. God is love. We know no love. The love we feel is not from us but rather it's the love He put in us.

1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.

We were unable to love Him before He sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in us.

God bless.

LouisBooth · Apr 11, 2002

"
#11

Sounds like hogwash to me.

I don't believe in that at all, because it makes us puppets and God the puppetmaster.

"

Just wondering..If I create something and say, it will end up here, am I controling it? I don't think so....God predestines those who will be saved based on their nature.

chuck · Apr 11, 2002

Blackhawg how are you my friend longtime since we discussed this topic LOL.
I did come upon scripture that at least for me sheds light on this, and it is in Genesis chapter 6:

-- New King James
Genesis 6:5-8 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.''But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Now the long and I guess drawn out question I have is this.
If God indeed chooses who He will change and who He will not (those He will save and those He will not), and we of our own will could never accept or reject this then why was God "sorry" He created man and He was so sorry and "grieved" in His heart about it that He was going destroy man, and not just man but "beast, creeping thing and birds of the air". You see by saying we do not have any choice in the matter to make a decision then God is sorry He created people to do exactly what He knew they were going to do. We also see in 2 Peter 3:9:

-- New King James
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

This really made me think. I have heard people say that this is not refering to all men but to the "elect" but if that is the case then we know non of them would ever perish because God would have "regenerated them" if indeed this verse is refering to the "elect". If God wants all to come to repentance then why doesn't He regenerate all? More overly why would God be "sorry" that He created a person that He knew He would never choose to save?

I hope that some of this makes sence to others and will enjoy seeing how others feel about this view also.

God Bless

StogusMaximus · Apr 12, 2002

Reformationist,

What do you think the criteria is for God's "choosen" few?

Blackhawk · Apr 12, 2002

"Blackhawg how are you my friend longtime since we discussed this topic LOL."

BLACKHAWG! Well I did not know that is what you thought of me or we would not have been friends. LOL. I am doing fine. I think the best thing that happened to me was leaving that other forum. Soon after I joined the one that merged with this one and that was a good move. How is it going with you?

About your views I think that they make sense. I am still pretty much as you left me as far as beliefs but I am finding out that I am more of an Arminian than A moderate Calvinist that I thought I was. ARmininianism was always the ugly word but now I see that he was pretty cool. Calvin was too I jsut can't get into the idea that God died for a certain few when all over the Bible He said He died for the world. But I will state what exactly I believe on each of these soon. I am hoping a debate will come up in these so we can discuss them. I just do not want it t oget out of hand like at the other site.

BH6

StogusMaximus · Apr 12, 2002

My take on Calvinism.

God knows the past, present and future. Since God knows the future, He knows everyone that will accept Him and be saved. If He knew everyone who will be saved when time began, then it can be assumed that God will focus His efforts on those who He knows will choose Him.

So....Because God knows how it will end, He changes His actions in the Present! Still with me?

Example. Two people exist in the world John and Jane. God sees the future and He knows that Jane will be saved and John will not. With this knoweldge God favors Jane from the time she is born till her death, while He ignores John. Jane is God's selection, because He knows what her outcome will be.

Am I correct in my thinking?

ZiSunka · Apr 12, 2002

Maybe. But I don't agree with the part about God focusing his love and favors only on those he knows will someday accept him. That would tip things unfairly. It would give the unsaved a valid gripe on judgement day. "Well, You gave Jane more than me, that's why she trusted You. If You had given me enough, I would have loved You, too. I got gypped!" the unsaved could say in their defense.

I think God sends rain on the just and the unjust alike, like the Bible says. All are blessed by God, and some recognize those blessings as being from God, and others think they came from their own hard work. Some love the rain (blessings) because they see it comes from God, and others wither curse the rain or think that they somehow made it rain (blessings).

It's after you become saved that you begin to see that God has always been there blessing you, that's all.

tericl2 · Apr 12, 2002

Salvation is by grace. Grace is a gift to us. In order to receive a gift it must be accepted.

Example....if I give you $100, say, by leaving it in your mailbox or on your porch where you can pick it up and use it any time you like, but you choose to leave that gift lying there, it does no good. I am still out the 100 dollars, and it is still there for you to take until the day you die, but you have to CHOOSE to pick it up and use it.

This is the same as Christ's gift to us. The gift of salvation is sitting there on the porch of your heart. All you have to do is CHOOSE to pick it up and make use of it.

BTW, if we are predestined, no matter what, to accept or not accept Jesus, why did He command us to take the Message to all corners of the earth? Why did (and do) Christians suffer and die to spread the Word if it is all predestined? Seems pointless, and my God, as far as i can tell doesn't do anything pointless.

We are the elect in the body of Christ once we choose to become members of His body.

Blackhawk · Apr 12, 2002

Stogus,

that is an Arminian view point. Let me go through all 5 points of Calvinism in one post and then i will go through the 5 points of Arminism in my next one here. i thought it would be best to make 5 points so that we were not speaking of so mnay different things in one thread but maybe that is just making things confusing. Maybe i should of Listed both in one thread before doing these 5. oh well you live and learn.

Calvinism-

The 5 points are represented by the acronym TULIP.

T- Total Depravity- We are dead and we can't get up. God has to totally regenerate us or fully make us alive before we can choose Him.
U- Unconditional election- God does not choose us based upon anything. He chose us before time just because that is what His will is.
L- Limited atonement- God choose a limited # of us before time to be in His elect and thus save us.
I-Irresistable grace- God's grace is effective and if God chooses to show Himself to us then we can't choose not to be saved.
P-Perserverance of the saints- OSAS

Arminianism
T w/P- Man is totally depraved but God regenerates man to a point in which man can choose to be saved.
C- Conditional election- God chose us based on the foreknowledge that we will choose Him later. So we are part of the elect based upon God's knowledge of what we will do later on.
L- Unlimted atonement- God died for all but we must choose to accept His gift in order to be saved.
R- resistable grace- We can resist God grace as it comes to salvation. Basically God puts out the offer and we can say yes or no.
F-Fall from grace- You can lose your salvation. As some have said in the threads one can walk out of God's hand.

Does that make it more clear?

BH6

I/R Irresistable vs. Resistable grace

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It means 'yellow dog'

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It means 'yellow dog'

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It means 'yellow dog'

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