T/ H Total Depravity vs. Human ability

Originally posted by blackhaw6
*** Okay this is the first of 5 posts about Calvinism vs. Arminism that I promised in the Round Table. I want to offer a few reminders though before we get started.

1. This is an in house debate. Non Christ-like behavior and name calling like "You are not a Christian" or "All Arminians or Calvinist are not Christians" will not be tolerated. Both sides are Christians. We can disagree and tell each other that the other is wrong but in a Christ like way and always rembering that both sides are Christian brothers and sisters. So do not be surpised if your post is deleted if it contains any of the above or anything in that same vein.

2. In my titles I might overemphasizes what each one teaches. For example both Arminism and Calvinsim teach Total depravity but Arminsism also teaches that God gives you only enough grace so that you can make a choice. so there is a human element although God does the saving. so I chose to overempahize that side in my titles to make it easy to distiguish between the 2 different sides.

3. There is a lot of misinformation about Calvinsim and especially Arminism. Web pagees are a bad source many times for information. So just watch out.

4. I will try to be as objective as possible but I will fail to some extent. So know that I come from a particular point of view. But again I will try to be as objective as possible.

5. I hope these threads will be a encouragement and a learning experience for everyone. If not then I will delete them myself. So if these turn into name calling matches like they can I will delete them. So no one ruin it for everyone else. okay?

BH6

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Okay brother! Start us off.

God bless.

I am very interested as well. I think this is an excellent idea to discuss Calvinism and Arminianism.

I am very interested in this. I think it would be helpful for me, if someone knowledgeable on each side of the issue would provide scripture supporting their view. Not your commentary of the scripture, just the reference. I can look them up myself if you don't want to post the text.

I agree with Arminian on this point.

They are both wrong.

Thanks again for going over these. And, I think you picked the perfect forum.

I think that the issue of total depavity is the best place to start because it's where all the other viewpoints stem from.

On to my opinion.

The reason there is even a differing of opinion about this is because it is natural for us to want to think the best about ourselves. We think about our own goodness and disregard that all goodness is found in God. No one wants to say, "Oh yeah, before I was saved I was God's enemy." It's not fun to think we were depraved and evil. I don't mean evil like Charles Manson evil. I mean evil like unrighteous. Again, we humans put things into catagories, just as the Pharisees did. They thought they were Holy because they were revered. They thought they did not sin as the common person sins. It's the same way we catagorize sin. Murder is worse than being self-centered. Stealing a car is worse than stealing a soda. We rely on our own ideas about this because we want to justify any sins we, ourselves, commit, just as the Pharisees did. They said stuff like, "Thank you God that I am not as bad as that person." Yet we all know that those that humble themselves in the sight of God are the ones He raises up; and, those that proclaim their righteousness before the Lord are those that He humbles. I do it. I think, "Well, I wouldn't have yelled at my wife if she didn't do something to make me mad. It's her "terrible" sin of being inconsiderate and demanding that provoked my "not so bad" sin of responding in an ungodly way." That's ridiculous. The truth is that if our pride keeps us from responding in godliness and asking for forgiveness and working to stop a sinful behavior then one sin is no worse than another.

This type of thought leads to us considering ourselves more than a creation. Granted, we are a very complex creation, but a creation nonetheless. The point of separation comes when you ask what total depravity means. The issue I take with the Arminian standpoint on this is that it says everyone is given "enough grace" to make the choice. If that's the case, who would choose eternal damnation. I mean some might be less obedient than others, but everyone would choose eternal joy.

So, while I consider myself a Christian more than a "Calvinist" I would have to say that I don't believe God only goes halfway here. The reason I believe that is because, as the Bible says in 1 Peter 1:2, the elect of God are elect according to the forknowledge of God. The word "foreknowledge" here does not mean it's based on Him knowing who would choose Him ahead of time. God is not a fortuneteller. It means those that He intimately knew and predestined before we were even created. If the word "elect" meant everyone or even just those He knew would pick Him eventually, then they wouldn't be the elect according to His foreknowledge. They would be the elect according to their ability to make the right choice. Additionally, if everyone is given the same grace that redeems them to a point of "not saved, yet able to choose righteousness" it begs the belief that some were just more depraved than others and that would show God's favortism based on something found in that person and thus wouldn't be unmerited as the bible says God's grace is. It would be based on the merit of those that would pick God. Then, someone could boast that they made the right decision. That's not biblical.

God bless.

God is not limited by space or time, so His foreknowing things wouldn't make Him a fortuneteller. God is all knowing.
I believe in the utter depravity of man, but I also believe that man has to decide whom he will choose to serve, even as Elijah declared, "Choose this day whom you will serve."
God is willing that none should perish.

Originally posted by Mandy
God is not limited by space or time, so His foreknowing things wouldn't make Him a fortuneteller. God is all knowing.
I believe in the utter depravity of man, but I also believe that man has to decide whom he will choose to serve, even as Elijah declared, "Choose this day whom you will serve."
God is willing that none should perish.

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God does not just know ahead of time because He's outside of time. He foreordaines. He predestines people according to His purpose.

Romans 9:16-18
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Romans 9:21-23
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Let's see here. It doesn't depend on man's desire or efforts. He raised Pharaoh up for the purpose of displaying His power. God decides who to have mercy on. God (the potter) has power over us (the clay). He can make one vessel (person) for honor (to be saved) and another for dishonor (to not be saved). He endures the vessels He prepared FOR DESTRUCTION for the purpose of making known the riches of His glory on those He, BEFOREHAND, prepared for mercy and Glory. I'm not sure what part of that process you seem to be confused about.

I don't know where Elijah said that but in the book of Joshua, Joshua says those words and it is important to understand that He was talking to God's chosen people. They had failed to follow God and he (Joshua) was telling them to not blame God for their hardships.

To say that God wants that none should perish you must understand that the Lord does not desire the death of the wicked. The wicked, however, will perish. That is also God's will. Otherwise, you are saying something happens outside of the will of God, which is unbiblical.

God bless.