Oh, this is GOOD!

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VOW

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To Dave:

You do have a point. A LOT of non-Catholics do some major head-bonking with the KJV to Catholics with, "I have to discern the truth."

What I have a HARD time understanding is how THEIR Holy Spirit is more valid than mine. <head-shake>


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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nyj

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Originally posted by Dave Ulchers

Yeah, well, so what?

So what? So what? You're kidding me right?

Isn't that the Pharisee's lament to Pontius Pilate for writing that Jesus was king of the Jews? Pilate had a right to write this, and it was the truth.

You're comparing apples with bananas! Pilate wrote what he wrote, not because he thought it was the truth, but because he knew it would tick off the Jews. Pilate also wasn't trying to use it for Apologetic purposes. The point of apologetics is a "defense of the faith". If you're going to tick off every person who isn't Catholic who reads the post, then you're simply wasting your time. I think the entire thread is a testament to the fact that posting the RPV to "state the truth" was an abyssmal failure.

I thought there was a lot of truth to the RPV. I may even find myself quoting it from time to time.

Hey, knock yourself out. But if you do it, I wouldn't wonder why people start flaming you and ignoring what you have to say. Everytime I see someone post Boettner's list, I immediately tune them out. Doesn't matter if it's truthful or not. If you haven't figured this out by now, a lot of people here aren't interested in the truth... they can't handle the truth. They just want to hang out with people who believe the same stuff they do, and feel all warm and fuzzy. They don't want to think outside their comfort zone... they WON'T think outside their comfort zone. They're shallow, self-obsessed and possibly in some cases couldn't formulate a personal opinion if it walked by and tapped them on the shoulder.

You want to post that (in what should be an attempt to show them the Truth) and alienate them, be my guest... certainly don't let me stop you!
 
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VOW

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To NYJ:

If you haven't figured this out by now, a lot of people here aren't interested in the truth... they can't handle the truth. They just want to hang out with people who believe the same stuff they do, and feel all warm and fuzzy. They don't want to think outside their comfort zone... they WON'T think outside their comfort zone.

Yeah, you're right. Problem is, though, those same folks are gonna get ticked if we're polite, or if we're rude. I know, because I've been TRYING polite.

It makes me wonder, "What am I DOING here?" I feel like I'm banging my head against cement, and hoping that people will see that Catholics bleed red, just like everyone else.

Instead, they'll probably slip in the puddle of my blood and brains, and then sue my survivors.

I think I need another headache pill....


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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nyj

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No offense folks, and I know it gets old being the object of attacks time after time, and having the Bible that your Church protected for two millenium be used as a weapon against you, but...

What do you expect?

Mt 5:11
"Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. "

Mt 10:23
When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel, before the Son of man comes.

Mt 23:34
Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from town to town,

Lu 11:49
Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,'...

Lu 21:12
But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake.

Joh 15:20
Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also.


You know, we just got done through Lent, and we should have focused on Jesus Christ's suffering and death on the cross. Do we really appreciate what He went through for us? Do we really understand what He has called us for?


Mt 10:37-38
He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.

Mt 16:24
Then Jesus told his disciples, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. "


When Jesus rose from the dead and he came to the Apostles, the first words he said were as follows:

John 20:19-21
On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you."


As the Father has sent me... if we recall, the Father had just finished sending Jesus Christ to the cross, to die, even so I send you... doesn't sound very promising does it?

Now, before I be accused of being a hypocrite, yah... I fail at picking up my cross and following Jesus all the time, but I glory in the persecution because Jesus Christ predicted it, He promised it, He expects it for us. In this, we simply follow, in some small way, the footsteps of Jesus Christ. Embrace it, make it your own, offer it up for those in purgatory and for those suffering on this earth, that God may show mercy on them.

And if you truly believe that this place is without hope...

Mt 10:14
And if any one will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town.


It's not a suggestion from Jesus, it's a command.
 
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Originally posted by nyj
Pilate wrote what he wrote, not because he thought it was the truth, but because he knew it would tick off the Jews.
Maybe on some level. He was practically blackmailed into condemning Jesus to death in the first place (John 18:12), so perhaps he really did believe Jesus was king of the Jews.

If you haven't figured this out by now, a lot of people here aren't interested in the truth...
I figured that out a long time ago. I'm not concerned about them wading into the tarpit. I'm more concerned with keeping any lost sheep passing through from following their lead.
 
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nyj

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Originally posted by Dave Ulchers
I figured that out a long time ago. I'm not concerned about them wading into the tarpit. I'm more concerned with keeping any lost sheep passing through from following their lead.

Good, perhaps then you'll take to heart this paraphrase of an old adage:

How we act is a direct reflection of how our parents raised us.

People judge us by how we act and react (something I constantly need to keep in mind when I post), and as a consequence they will judge our faith accordingly. If all they see is Catholics who act mean, snobbish and sarcastic, they may just assume that all Catholics are like that.

I am a part of my parishes RCIA team. I cannot begin to tell you how often converts say one of the first motivators for their consideration of Catholicism was the hypocrisy they saw in their own denomination and how they didn't see that in Catholicism. Witnessing is more than just words, and sometimes the words are not even necessary. I believe it was St. Francis who said "Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words".

And that is why I object to the use of this RPV as any sort of witnessing/apologetic tool.
 
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VOW

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Originally posted by nyj
I am a part of my parishes RCIA team. I cannot begin to tell you how often converts say one of the first motivators for their consideration of Catholicism was the hypocrisy they saw in their own denomination and how they didn't see that in Catholicism. Witnessing is more than just words, and sometimes the words are not even necessary. I believe it was St. Francis who said "Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words".

Boy, you sure hit the nail on the head with THAT one.....because that's my story, in a nutshell.

Jesus and the Disciples didn't BEAT PEOPLE OVER THE HEAD to teach them His message!


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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JohnR7

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>>I feel like I'm banging my head against cement

Ouch, that must hurt. The Bible says that God will cause all things to work out for the best, for them that love God and are called according to His purpose. Somehow I do not feel like it is God's plan and His purpose for us to bang our head against cement. But you never know, He can cause good to come out of anything.

Isaiah 54:17 No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.
 
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hopeee

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Oh my!!! This does open up a "big" can of worms.!!! That is just awful! For anyone to "add" words to the Bible is just horrible and sinful! No one needs to add words or delete what the Holy Spirit has said.... Vow, may I suggest that you put this topic and article on the Inter-Faith Discussion Forum.... I think this would be a very good debate. I think other Protestants need to read that article too... I would like to hear what they think about all of this.... Good Grief! :sigh: Hope
 
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VOW

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To Hope:

Patriarch already did, and there was a bloodbath, with people posting venom all over. KC had to close all the threads with a Catholic theme.

And THAT is why I didn't want to hear anything anti-Catholic over here, Hope. I was brutalized in the Interfaith Forum.


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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hopeee

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Vow, Darn I missed it! I wish I could of read what the Protestants thought about it.... I am still trying very hard to understand why anyone would add words to the Bible. Isn't that called blastfullmey? (Sorry about the spelling of that word, I have no idea of how to spell it)... I just can't believe how some of the Protestant People are letting that slide, because their whole religion is based on the Bible. Adding words in the Bible is even worse than letting Ministers marry same-sex couples.... :eek: Maybe you could repost that article again on the Roundhouse? Boy, is that an interesting topic to talk about.... :rolleyes: I still can't believe it. But, nothing seems to shock me anymore! :sigh: It just seems like Christianity is being watered down with all of these hundreds of different denominations and beliefs.... It makes me sad... :cry: Pretty soon the Bible will be one big Soap Opera! :( Hope
 
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nyj

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Originally posted by hope
Wow! I still can't believe it... The words were totally twisted around.! Some verses were even deleted! This is so upsetting. I am even thinking of sending this article to my Mother In Law. She is Methodist. But, I am afraid that she will think that I am bashing her Religion... What do you think I should do? :idea: Hope

Sending it to someone would possibly be the dumbest thing anyone could do. Can you explain exactly why you'd want to send it to her?

"Hey mom, here is something I know will offend you. Love ya, bye." :scratch:

PS: I think you're making a bigger production out of the whole thing than is necessary, just let the damn beast die already.
 
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patriarch

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Originally posted by hope
Vow, Darn I missed it! I wish I could of read what the Protestants thought about it.... I am still trying very hard to understand why anyone would add words to the Bible. Isn't that called blastfullmey? (Sorry about the spelling of that word, I have no idea of how to spell it)... I just can't believe how some of the Protestant People are letting that slide, because their whole religion is based on the Bible. Adding words in the Bible is even worse than letting Ministers marry same-sex couples.... :eek: Maybe you could repost that article again on the Roundhouse? Boy, is that an interesting topic to talk about.... :rolleyes: I still can't believe it. But, nothing seems to shock me anymore! :sigh: It just seems like Christianity is being watered down with all of these hundreds of different denominations and beliefs.... It makes me sad... :cry: Pretty soon the Bible will be one big Soap Opera! :( Hope

Where there's life there's Hope! No, you didn't miss anything, Hope. The thread is still at Interfaith, if you'd like to take a look. Also, take a look at the thread called, "Closed threads," for a discussion about the discussion. That is very interesting in itself.

But KC, if you think I am going to open up another thread that puts the Catholic viewpoint out there, you're badly mistaken. For one thing, I don't want to have the rug pulled out from under me again. And for another, I don't think the Catholics here are up to a sustained argument in the face of serious opposition, esp opposition that uses the language of feelings.

These developments pretty much took the mickey out of me, I've got to admit. Not that there was a tumult, or a battle royal, but that when the going gets tough we will call on a Catholic moderator to bail us out by closing down the thread. Pah! Were we terrified of TheBear's threat to post a parody of the Catholic faith? "If this thread isn't shut down pretty soon....." he would write a parody. Bango, it was shut down *immediately.* Man, we cow pretty easily. NYJ's embarrassment to the contrary nothwithstanding, the RVP is an excellent serious apologetic argument. The RVP does not address only Calvinists and OSASers, it addresses the whole Reformation project head on. Scripture is their whole thing, and the RVP makes abundantly clear to them how badly they distort it and even eviscerate it, all the while accusing us of not knowing the scriptures. What unbelievable irony.

What did you think they were going to do? Crying "foul" was the only tack they could take, that plus making us feel bad about making them feel bad. Insulting them, or bashing them would be wrong, but their feelngs are pretty much up to them. If we had said, for example that they were a bunch of "uneducated hicks from the Bible belt," *that* would be bashing, or that they don't want to listen to the Pope because it would hold them to a higher standard of morality, *that* would be bashing, but the comparison of Catholic scripture with their positions framed in scriptural language is *not* bashing, no matter how bad it makes them feel.

Please note, no one, NO ONE, even attempted a reply to any of the things that the RPV clearly revealed, because Hoge really did justice to their oft stated positions, positions that are scripturally untenable. If anything, I think we ought to apologize for not confronting them with this in a more sustained fashion than we were able to muster. It was possible to do that politely, but insistently.

As far as any parody that TheBear might have been able to come up with, certainly it would be very easy to do, as he said. The difference is that Hoge's parody was directed at the very heart of Reformation theology using their own much vaunted scriptures. No response was possible. Nothing comparable is possible with Catholicism, but if anything should appear, I hope that we can approach it line by line, addressing the argument in itself, without any puerile whining about "bashing" and how bad it makes us feel. Just answer the argument, that's all we need to do, and all they needed to do, for that matter, but could not.

Peace,

Lee
 
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VOW

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To NYJ:

Yanno, I actually WANTED Bear to post a Catholic parody.

What really fried my bacon was when I was accused of calling people liars, and saying that people made up things, and attacking people personally. I never, EVER did that, never will. I weigh my words carefully. Hello, I even SPELLCHECK.

I've never attacked anyone. I've only refuted erroneous information about the Catholic faith. And when I have done that, I get SCREECHING posted replies that I am "Protestant (or *Prod*, LOL) bashing."

Do you realize that NO PROTESTANT FAITH has EVER been attacked the way Catholicism has on this board? Miss Shelby is the ONLY ONE who finally realized that. At first, the RPV upset her. And then she stopped to think, and actually posted "Now I understand how the Catholics feel." I would have kissed her, if I could!


Peace be with you,
~VOW
 
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