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Doc T said:
;)

Prodigious Prime: No one has uncovered any artifacts related to the BOM.

Doc: Again, I disagree. Altars found in Yeman mention the city Nahom (NHM) which is mentioned in the BofM as a place of burial.

See http://www.jefflindsay.com/bme15.shtml

Prodigious Prime: No one has found any inscriptions confirming the BOM.

Doc: See above

Prodigious Prime: No one has identified any person, place, nation, or name mentioned in the BOM.

Doc: See http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/response/bom/Geography_Archaeology.htm

Prodigious Prime: There is more archaeological evidence weighing against the Book of Mormon, but I chose to outline the most severe.

Doc: I'm glad that what you have chosen is the "most severe." It indicates to me that you simply have more research to do. :D

Concerning alleged discoveries on the alleged city of Nahom:

You know just for argument's sake, let us say that this is an authentic discovery. NHM on the altar could very well be the name of an ancient tribe containing those consonants. Doc, I honestly do not see any substantial evidence for The Book of Mormon.

Concernning, people, nations, names, places, and inscriptions: NHM is hardly compelling evidence (especially when that's all you got).

Concerning my presentation of only the most severe evidence of The Book of Mormon: Doc, let's be honest. To do a fair and complete study of the archaeological evidence, one would have to write an entire book. That is not the purpose of this forum. The purpose is for me to present evidence of my position. So that, after I'm done, you present evidence for your position. Anyway, I'm still waiting...
 
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Doc T said:


Prodigious Prime: Strictly from a scientific point of view, I believe that this merits more than enough evidence to discredit this text as revealed from our Creator.

Doc: Just like the Bible, the message of the Book of Mormon is a spiritual one, and cannot be wholly proved by archaeology.

:scratch:
(?????????????????????????)

I do not see how The Book of Mormon's spiritual message places the Book of Mormon above scientific testing (via archaeology).

No, I do not wish to prove The Book of Mormon archaeologically. Belief in The Book of Mormon as God-inspired Scripture must be based on reason, however. (C'mon Doc, there should at least be compelling corroborating evidence...Why? Because The Bible passes all of the above.)
 
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Doc T said:
Book of Mormon archaeology is, admittedly, not nearly as developed as Biblical archaeology. The main reason for this is that the LDS culture has produced very few people who are both competent archaeologists and experts on the Book of Mormon. Not to mention that Pre-Classic Mesoamerican archaeology is relatively untouched area.

Dr. John L. Sorenson, professor emeritus of Anthropology at Brigham Young University, is quite possibly the best Book of Mormon archaeologist currently living. His landmark book, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book and FARMS, 1985) sets forth the most comprehensive theory of Book of Mormon geography and archeology.

The latest in Book of Mormon archaeology is available through FARMS, the Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies. They publish Insights, a semi-monthly newsletter, and the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, a semi-annual journal, both of which are quite good and relatively inexpensive. You can look at some back issues of these and contact the Foundation through the FARMS web site: http://farms.byu.edu.

For a more accessible overview of some of the challenges of Book of Mormon vs. Biblical archaeology, I highly recommend William J. Hamblin's essay, "Basic Methodological Problems with the Anti-Mormon Approach to the Geography and Archaeology of the Book of Mormon," available on the World Wide Web as I posted above.
Doc: There is no evidence for any of the claims that The Book of Mormon makes. There is no good reason why we haven't found anything except one: The Book of Mormon is not Revelation from God. So, I can't tell you what it is, but I can definitely tell you what it's not. It's not God-inspired.

Please see the rest this thread for an explanation of The Bible's proclamation of The Way. The Way to Salvation which is Jesus Christ. There are many Christians who do see an apostasy- just as many Mormons do. Please understand however, that Jesus has already paid for our sins. The Bible explains that although it has been man's duty to be righteous before God, man has indelibly failed to be so in God's sight. That is why it was necessary for Jesus to die for all of ours sins (Jew and Gentile alike, "righteous (in man's eyes)" and unrighteous". It is when you understand this that you are truly free and when you begin a great journey full of trials and obstacles as you begin to follow Christ. I pray that you accept Jesus into your heart today.
 
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emerald Dragon

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Does there have to be physical evidence supporting a set of scriptures to say that it is true? Do people require (most people) that the places and events in the bible be authenticated historically before they will join a church? What ever happened to faith.

No one today can even prove that the Garden of Eden actually existed, yet everyone believes it. And just becasue to rivers are named the Tigris and the Euphrates does not mean that those are the actucall rivers mentioned in the bible-someone could have named them before we humans could adequetly record history.
 
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P.S. When an academic accuses academia of bad methodology it is their responsibility to formulate or point to good methodology. Why? How can you say something is bad if you have nothing good to compare it to.

Once you have good methodology.... Get the evidence.....once you have the evidence....evaluate the evidence.....
 
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emerald Dragon said:
Does there have to be physical evidence supporting a set of scriptures to say that it is true? Do people require (most people) that the places and events in the bible be authenticated historically before they will join a church? What ever happened to faith.
Emerald Dragon:

Faith is only as good as the thing you rest it on.

DO NOT RELY ON HAPPENSTANCE TO GUIDE YOU TO THE TRUTH. Jesus himself warned us to be careful of who or what we put our faith in. It is your responsibility to verify the claims made by a document or a person.
 
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Doc T

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Prodigious Prime: Doc enlighten us,
What methodology do they need to understand in order to scientifically evaluate the Book of Mormon and its claims?


Doc: Perhaps I could give you an excerpt from Dr. Sorensen's paper

"If an intelligent criticism is to be made of any position, the critic must be well prepared regarding both, or all, sides of it. Rendering a judgement on whether or how the Book of Mormon relates to the result's of scientific study on ancient America is no different. It requires knowledge of both sides of the potential equation. The most erudite archaeologist who has not also mastered the cultural and geographic content of the Book of Mormon cannot sensibly compare it to archaeological findings (exactly as if the book were some other purported American Indian book, say, the Walarn Olum or Popol Vuh).

The Book of Mormon has never been analyzed as a record reporting ancient cultures on anything like the scale and with the intensity that it deserves, The text needs to be examined in full detail for what it says—and does not say—about customs, the rise of cities, warfare, etc., which it attributes to the peoples it treats. The only analysis even moving in that direction was published in An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon,1 but even it only begins the requisite investigation. Meanwhile most Latter-day Saints characterize the cultures of the Nephites and other peoples treated in the volume unsystematically and uncritically, on the basis of informal traditions rather than sound scholarship. Yet what non-Latter-day Saints have claimed the Book of Mormon says about ancient America is equally unreliable. Even the few non-religious scholars, like those on the SI staff, who purport to have looked at the scripture in the light of archaeology sufficiently to make a statement about it have failed to investigate this complex record more than superficially.

In studies of ancient American culture history no comparison is worth anything unless it refers to the right place and the right time. For instance, if researchers should examine the question of the origin of a particular architectural form mentioned in a central Mexican document, they would only look foolish if they wasted effort surveying buildings in Ecuador. On the same principle, talking about the precise where and when the Book of Mormon speaks of is a requirement if one wishes to be taken seriously in a discussion of that volume in relation to archaeology.

In recent decades LDS scholars have established three important facts about the Book of Mormon text that define how it must be compared with external, scientific information. The first point is that the Book of Mormon itself presents the events in the New World which it reports as taking place in a territory of limited extent—not more than 500 or 600 miles long and considerably less in width. This territory is also characterized as lying on both sides of an isthmus separating the major oceans. This scale is contrary to what many Latter-day Saints and virtually all critics of the Book of Mormon have assumed. For generations they have supposed that the entire western hemisphere was the scene for Book of Mormon events. But careful studies of hundreds of interlocking details in the text about topography, hydrographic features, climate, settlements, and cultural patterns have produced general consensus that the Book of Mormon peoples lived in all or a portion of Mesoamerica, that is, the area occupied anciently by the civilized peoples of southern and central Mexico and northern Central America.

The second point is that the book reports events and cultures confined almost totally to the "Pre-Classic" or "Formative" era, prior to about A.D. 300.

Third, it is a record kept by and about only a segment of Mesoamerican society—a particular noble "lineage" according to one frame of reference. It was written to explain and justify events that affected the descendants of a ruler (Nephi) who lived in the sixth century B.C., probably in southern Guatemala. It does not purport to be and manifestly is not the story of a whole "'nation," let alone a full "culture" or "civilization." Neither does it tell us systematically about portions of Mesoamerica or beyond that were not involved with the fate of its particular descent line.

It is also important that the Book of Mormon is only incidentally and incompletely a record of culture. Its primary purpose is religious or ideological; only cryptic information is offered about such matters as technology, political structure, or social structure, even for that segment of the population about whom it speaks. The brevity means that whole centuries and substantial territories are passed over with no more than a handful of words to characterize the events or cultures involved.

On the basis of this characterization of the Book of Mormon and its peoples and lands, we can see what kind of expert is qualified to comment usefully on how or whether the Book of Mormon account relates to the findings of scientists. Our expert ought to be as highly-informed about the archaeology, art, biological anthropology, linguistics, and history of southern and central Mesoamerica in the Pre-Classic period as possible, with emphasis on relating the results from dirt archaeology to an esoteric sacred text. At the same time, our expert needs to be conversant with the cultural content of the Book of Mormon record, concerning which a significant body of secondary literature has been developed by Latter-day Saint analysts in recent years. Needless to say few, if any, experts are qualified in these terms.

None of the handful of Smithsonian archaeologists is even a Mesoamerican specialist, let alone a Pre-Classic specialist. Nor is there a hint of any of the staff having examined the Book of Mormon in a sophisticated manner that would ensure helpful comparison with scholarly results. One wonders, then, who are the knowledgeable sources prepared to stand behind the SI statement regarding the Book of Mormon.


Prodigious Prime: If you have no alternative methodology to scientifically evaluate the Book of Mormon then surely LDS possesses compelling evidence that either the rest of us have not seen yet or refuse to evaluate.

Doc: Who said that there was ot metholodolgy to scientifically evaluate the Book of Mormon?

Prodigious Prime: By the way, that website seems pretty dishonest. Careful reading of the page you posted clearly shows that The Smithsonian Institute continues to hold to the claim posted above. The only difference now is that they stress that the BoM is a religious document, not a scientific guide or used as a guide for archaeologists (In other words, they're trying not to offend you in view of your beliefs).

Doc: You apparently did not read the website very closely. The website demonstrated that the statement by the Smithsonian were untenable.

Prodigious Prime:Should I believe The Smithsonian Institute or a Church that has yet to present compelling evidence? Hmmm...:scratch:

Doc: Have you read John Sorensen's book "An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon"? That would be a great start.
 
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emerald Dragon

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Prodigious Prime said:
here is no evidence for any of the claims that The Book of Mormon makes. There is no good reason why we haven't found anything except one: The Book of Mormon is not Revelation from God.
So, if we can't physically prove anything from any scripture, as you are suggesting, it is not a revelation from God? Boy, are we then following the wrong peopl, because half the bible would be false, according to your logic.
 
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emerald Dragon said:
No one today can even prove that the Garden of Eden actually existed, yet everyone believes it. And just becasue to rivers are named the Tigris and the Euphrates does not mean that those are the actucall rivers mentioned in the bible-someone could have named them before we humans could adequetly record history.
Regarding the rivers of Eden and Eden itself:

True enough. The Garden of Eden has never been found. On the other hand, there is plenty of circumstantial archaeological evidence that fits in well with Genesis. For example, the nations that Abraham deals with right before the incident with Melchizedeck have been verified archaeologically.

Regarding the authenticity of the Hebrew Bible:

Emerald Dragon: There are literally thousands of manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible and they are all virtually identical (Please do the research on this and I guarrantee that your jaw will drop...please also compare this with "Archaeology of the Book of Mormon")
 
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emerald Dragon

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Prodigious Prime said:
DO NOT RELY ON HAPPENSTANCE TO GUIDE YOU TO THE TRUTH. Jesus himself warned us to be careful of who or what we put our faith in. It is your responsibility to verify the claims made by a document or a person.
What then of faith? If we are to investigate everything to ensure its truthfullness, ought we not to investigate the bible with the same meticulous care?

As for what Christ said, that in effect is what the Church says to do. So not look for man's evidence, but ask of God. He will tell you if something is true. Ask if something is true, with a sincere heart, and He will reveal its truth to you.
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him"-- James 1:5

I am not intending to put this at anyone in particular, but it seems more people are set on proving the Book of Mormon wrong through lack of archeological evidence, than either proving the bible wrong (which would be a logical plan of action, and while they were at it, prove every religious writ wrong, if possible), or actually finding the truth for themselves, by asking of God if it is not so. For are we not to ask of God if we know not somethin?
 
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emerald Dragon said:
So, if we can't physically prove anything from any scripture, as you are suggesting, it is not a revelation from God? Boy, are we then following the wrong peopl, because half the bible would be false, according to your logic.
No...that's incorrect.

Obviously this would be too demanding. The standard for The Bible and the Book of Mormon should be the same as all other ancient documents. Homer's The Iliad, Plato's Republic, etc.
 
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Doc T

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Prodigious Prime: Jerusalem is not in The New World. Jerusalem is in the Old World (The Middle East). Today Jerusalem is part of the nation-state of Israel. Maybe you've heard of it? You know, the city that several groups of people are interested in?

In any case, your rebuttal is duly noted: Jerusalem is in the BofM.
Now, can we talk about cities that are only mentioned in the BofM? I mean...in light of the fact that WE ALL KNOW JERUSALEM IS A REAL PLACE!!! (ahem. Excuse me. Didn't mean to get excited there.)


Doc: Perhaps you can cut back on the insults? Yes, I know where Jerusalem is. Have you even read the BofM? It starts in the Old World.

Prodigious Prime: (By the way, references to Jerusalem in The BofM are wrong too. The BofM states that Jesus was born in Jerusalem. The Bible however states, (both Old and New Testament) that Jesus was to be/was born in Bethlehem.)

Doc: It is becoming more obvious that you have not read the BofM yourself, but are relying on characterizations of the BofM made by others. See http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProblems.shtml#jerus
 
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Doc T

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Prodigious Prime said:
Concerning alleged discoveries on the alleged city of Nahom:

You know just for argument's sake, let us say that this is an authentic discovery. NHM on the altar could very well be the name of an ancient tribe containing those consonants. Doc, I honestly do not see any substantial evidence for The Book of Mormon.

Concernning, people, nations, names, places, and inscriptions: NHM is hardly compelling evidence (especially when that's all you got).

Concerning my presentation of only the most severe evidence of The Book of Mormon: Doc, let's be honest. To do a fair and complete study of the archaeological evidence, one would have to write an entire book. That is not the purpose of this forum. The purpose is for me to present evidence of my position. So that, after I'm done, you present evidence for your position. Anyway, I'm still waiting...

Doc: It is apparent that you need to read more.
 
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Doc T said:
Prodigious Prime: Doc enlighten us,
What methodology do they need to understand in order to scientifically evaluate the Book of Mormon and its claims?


Doc: Perhaps I could give you an excerpt from Dr. Sorensen's paper

"If an intelligent criticism is to be made of any position, the critic must be well prepared regarding both, or all, sides of it. Rendering a judgement on whether or how the Book of Mormon relates to the result's of scientific study on ancient America is no different. It requires knowledge of both sides of the potential equation. The most erudite archaeologist who has not also mastered the cultural and geographic content of the Book of Mormon cannot sensibly compare it to archaeological findings (exactly as if the book were some other purported American Indian book, say, the Walarn Olum or Popol Vuh).

The Book of Mormon has never been analyzed as a record reporting ancient cultures on anything like the scale and with the intensity that it deserves, The text needs to be examined in full detail for what it says—and does not say—about customs, the rise of cities, warfare, etc., which it attributes to the peoples it treats. The only analysis even moving in that direction was published in An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon,1 but even it only begins the requisite investigation. Meanwhile most Latter-day Saints characterize the cultures of the Nephites and other peoples treated in the volume unsystematically and uncritically, on the basis of informal traditions rather than sound scholarship. Yet what non-Latter-day Saints have claimed the Book of Mormon says about ancient America is equally unreliable. Even the few non-religious scholars, like those on the SI staff, who purport to have looked at the scripture in the light of archaeology sufficiently to make a statement about it have failed to investigate this complex record more than superficially.

In studies of ancient American culture history no comparison is worth anything unless it refers to the right place and the right time. For instance, if researchers should examine the question of the origin of a particular architectural form mentioned in a central Mexican document, they would only look foolish if they wasted effort surveying buildings in Ecuador. On the same principle, talking about the precise where and when the Book of Mormon speaks of is a requirement if one wishes to be taken seriously in a discussion of that volume in relation to archaeology.

In recent decades LDS scholars have established three important facts about the Book of Mormon text that define how it must be compared with external, scientific information. The first point is that the Book of Mormon itself presents the events in the New World which it reports as taking place in a territory of limited extent—not more than 500 or 600 miles long and considerably less in width. This territory is also characterized as lying on both sides of an isthmus separating the major oceans. This scale is contrary to what many Latter-day Saints and virtually all critics of the Book of Mormon have assumed. For generations they have supposed that the entire western hemisphere was the scene for Book of Mormon events. But careful studies of hundreds of interlocking details in the text about topography, hydrographic features, climate, settlements, and cultural patterns have produced general consensus that the Book of Mormon peoples lived in all or a portion of Mesoamerica, that is, the area occupied anciently by the civilized peoples of southern and central Mexico and northern Central America.

The second point is that the book reports events and cultures confined almost totally to the "Pre-Classic" or "Formative" era, prior to about A.D. 300.

Third, it is a record kept by and about only a segment of Mesoamerican society—a particular noble "lineage" according to one frame of reference. It was written to explain and justify events that affected the descendants of a ruler (Nephi) who lived in the sixth century B.C., probably in southern Guatemala. It does not purport to be and manifestly is not the story of a whole "'nation," let alone a full "culture" or "civilization." Neither does it tell us systematically about portions of Mesoamerica or beyond that were not involved with the fate of its particular descent line.

It is also important that the Book of Mormon is only incidentally and incompletely a record of culture. Its primary purpose is religious or ideological; only cryptic information is offered about such matters as technology, political structure, or social structure, even for that segment of the population about whom it speaks. The brevity means that whole centuries and substantial territories are passed over with no more than a handful of words to characterize the events or cultures involved.

On the basis of this characterization of the Book of Mormon and its peoples and lands, we can see what kind of expert is qualified to comment usefully on how or whether the Book of Mormon account relates to the findings of scientists. Our expert ought to be as highly-informed about the archaeology, art, biological anthropology, linguistics, and history of southern and central Mesoamerica in the Pre-Classic period as possible, with emphasis on relating the results from dirt archaeology to an esoteric sacred text. At the same time, our expert needs to be conversant with the cultural content of the Book of Mormon record, concerning which a significant body of secondary literature has been developed by Latter-day Saint analysts in recent years. Needless to say few, if any, experts are qualified in these terms.

None of the handful of Smithsonian archaeologists is even a Mesoamerican specialist, let alone a Pre-Classic specialist. Nor is there a hint of any of the staff having examined the Book of Mormon in a sophisticated manner that would ensure helpful comparison with scholarly results. One wonders, then, who are the knowledgeable sources prepared to stand behind the SI statement regarding the Book of Mormon.


Prodigious Prime: If you have no alternative methodology to scientifically evaluate the Book of Mormon then surely LDS possesses compelling evidence that either the rest of us have not seen yet or refuse to evaluate.

Doc: Who said that there was ot metholodolgy to scientifically evaluate the Book of Mormon?

Prodigious Prime: By the way, that website seems pretty dishonest. Careful reading of the page you posted clearly shows that The Smithsonian Institute continues to hold to the claim posted above. The only difference now is that they stress that the BoM is a religious document, not a scientific guide or used as a guide for archaeologists (In other words, they're trying not to offend you in view of your beliefs).

Doc: You apparently did not read the website very closely. The website demonstrated that the statement by the Smithsonian were untenable.

Prodigious Prime:Should I believe The Smithsonian Institute or a Church that has yet to present compelling evidence? Hmmm...:scratch:

Doc: Have you read John Sorensen's book "An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon"? That would be a great start.

Doc: I don't have time to discuss this with someone who constantly begs the question.

Let's say that "we don't have a clue as to how to go about digging for artifacts in Pre-Columbian North America".

By you saying this, you are obviously implying that LDS does know how.

Where are the results?

Once you show me the results, show me how you evaluated the validity of those results.

Stop telling me how it's not done and tell me how it's done. And then after that, it's your job to prove it.

Signing off,

Prodigious Prime.
 
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Doc T said:
Prodigious Prime: Jerusalem is not in The New World. Jerusalem is in the Old World (The Middle East). Today Jerusalem is part of the nation-state of Israel. Maybe you've heard of it? You know, the city that several groups of people are interested in?

In any case, your rebuttal is duly noted: Jerusalem is in the BofM.
Now, can we talk about cities that are only mentioned in the BofM? I mean...in light of the fact that WE ALL KNOW JERUSALEM IS A REAL PLACE!!! (ahem. Excuse me. Didn't mean to get excited there.)


Doc: Perhaps you can cut back on the insults? Yes, I know where Jerusalem is. Have you even read the BofM? It starts in the Old World.

Prodigious Prime: (By the way, references to Jerusalem in The BofM are wrong too. The BofM states that Jesus was born in Jerusalem. The Bible however states, (both Old and New Testament) that Jesus was to be/was born in Bethlehem.)

Doc: It is becoming more obvious that you have not read the BofM yourself, but are relying on characterizations of the BofM made by others. See http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/FQ_BMProblems.shtml#jerus
I'm sorry if you thought I was being insulting. I just didn't know if you were serious about your Jerusalem rebuttal.

Concerning Jesus and Jerusalem:

Explain how that verse says something different than how I interpret it to mean.
 
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Doc T

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Prodigious Prime said:
:scratch:
(?????????????????????????)

I do not see how The Book of Mormon's spiritual message places the Book of Mormon above scientific testing (via archaeology).

No, I do not wish to prove The Book of Mormon archaeologically. Belief in The Book of Mormon as God-inspired Scripture must be based on reason, however. (C'mon Doc, there should at least be compelling corroborating evidence...Why? Because The Bible passes all of the above.)

Doc: Let me give you your homework. Below is a list of books/papers that discuss some of the evidences of the BofM. After you have read at least one of them, then we will talk. Not in any particular order.

1. S. Kent Brown, "A Case for Lehi's Bondage in Arabia," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 6/2 (1997): 205-17

2. An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, by John L. Sorenson, Deseret Book Comp., Salt Lake City, Utah, 1985

3. Reexploring the Book of Mormon, edited by John Welch, Deseret Book Comp., Salt Lake City, Utah, 1992

4. Rediscovering the Book of Mormon, edited by John L. Sorenson and Melvin J. Thorne, Deseret Book Comp., Salt Lake City, Utah, 1991.

5. In the Footsteps of Lehi by Warren P. Aston and Michael K. Aston, Deseret Book Comp., Salt Lake City, UT, 1994.

6. The Book of Mormon and Other Hidden Books by John A. Tvedtnes, Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, Provo, Utah, 2000.

7. Mormons, Scripture, and the Ancient World, edited by Davis Bitton, Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, Provo, Utah, 1998.

8. In Search of Cumorah, by David A. Palmer, Horizon Publishers, Bountiful, UT, 1981.

9. Lehi in the Wilderness, 81 New documented evidences that the Book of Mormon is a true history by George Potter and Richard Wellington

10. Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon Edited by Donald W. Parry, Daniel C. Peterson, John W. Welch, FARMS, 2002. Paperback: 506 pages.

I also suggest you check out the website http://www.nephiproject.com/
 
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Doc T

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Prodigious Prime said:
I'm sorry if you thought I was being insulting. I just didn't know if you were serious about your Jerusalem rebuttal.

Concerning Jesus and Jerusalem:

Explain how that verse says something different than how I interpret it to mean.

Doc: Alma 7:10 gives a prophecy that Christ would be born "at Jerusalem, which is the land of our forefathers." Here and in many other passages, Jerusalem is described as a land, not just a city. Bethlehem is a tiny suburb of Jerusalem, just 5 miles away from the heart of the city. Not only does Bethlehem properly fall within the "land of Jerusalem," making the Book of Mormon correct, but use of that term is surprising evidence of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

First, people in the New World once descended from the Old would know little about Old World geography. In referring to their place of origin, it would be surprising if they still retained knowledge of tiny villages and suburbs. Saying that Christ was born in Jerusalem, to a New World audience long separated from knowledge of Israel, is no more incorrect that for a Californian to tell a friend in New York they he is from Los Angeles, when in fact he may be from Century City or some other "unknown" suburb. The Book of Mormon is remarkably consistent in avoiding specific references to geographical details in the Old World apart from the writings of Nephi and quotations from Old World prophets. Referring to the birthplace of Christ as the land of Jerusalem makes sense if that passage were written by an ancient New World prophet. If Joseph Smith had written it, why not just say Bethlehem? He and every school child of his time knew Christ was born in Bethlehem.

Certainly Joseph Smith knew that Christ was born in Bethlehem - he was familiar with much of the Bible and surely had heard the story of Christ's birth numerous times. If he were making the Book of Mormon up, why on earth would he make such a terrible blunder, placing Christ's birth in Jerusalem? How could he make such a thoughtless and stupid blunder in the midst of an otherwise enormously clever fraud? The "blunder" makes no sense if Joseph Smith were the author - but it is not a blunder at all and makes perfect sense if he were only translating an authentic ancient document in which the often-used term "land of Jerusalem" meant more than just the city. The use of the term "land of Jerusalem" in Alma 7:10 and many other locations is consistent with usage in the Dead Sea Scrolls and can now be viewed as powerful evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith could not possibly have made that up.

In spite of its weakness, the attack on Alma 7:10 seems to be one of the three or four most common of all arguments against the Book of Mormon. It ought to be buried once and for all, especially in light of the excellent article, Jesus' Birthplace and the Phrase "Land of Jerusalem", available on the FARMS site. Also see "On Alma 7:10 and the Birthplace of Jesus Christ" by Daniel C. Peterson, Matthew Roper, and William J. Hamblin, FARMS Preliminary Report, 1995.

Finally, critics ought to realize that if we must condemn the Book of Mormon for stating that Christ would be born "at Jerusalem, which is the land of our forefathers," then they must also reject the Bible because it says that Amaziah "was buried at Jerusalem with his fathers in the city of David" (2 Kings 14:20), and the city of David is Bethlehem (see Luke 2:4, 1 Samuel 20:6). As with so many of the arguments used by anti-Mormons against the Book of Mormon, the attack on Alma 7:10 is:

based on ignorance or sloppy scholarship, would result in a condemnation of the Bible if the same standard were applied to it, and actually strengthens the case for the Book of Mormon when one digs into the facts.
 
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Doc T

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Prodigious Prime said:
Really..

Well I'm still waiting for your rebuttal on how to do things and where the evidence is?

Doc: I would suggest you read the article by Brant Gardner entitled "Playing Second Stone - Can Archaeology Prove the Book of Mormon?" The opening page begins. . .

"The debate about the Book of Mormon and archaeology is like herding cats or arguing with my wife. Both are very frustrating experiences, and I know much more about the latter. We need to get some underlying ground rules more clearly defined so we can proceed.

One of my favorite games is gomoku. The object of the game is to be the first of the two opponents to place five stones in a row on a board with a grid. It is deceptively complicated for a game with few rules. However, one of the aspects of the game is that the person placing the first stone has a tremendous advantage. The person on defense scrambles like mad, and has to be very good to withstand the onslaught.

Critical studies of the Book of Mormon follow the same pattern. Those of us who would defend the Book of Mormon are always playing the second stone. The reason is quite simple. For a book such as the Book of Mormon it can be possible to prove that is not an ancient document. It is not, however, possible to prove that it is a translation of an ancient document."

You can read the full article at: http://frontpage2000.nmia.com/~nahualli/LDStopics/2ndstone.htm
 
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Ben_Hur

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If he were making the Book of Mormon up, why on earth would he make such a terrible blunder, placing Christ's birth in Jerusalem? How could he make such a thoughtless and stupid blunder in the midst of an otherwise enormously clever fraud? The "blunder" makes no sense if Joseph Smith were the author - but it is not a blunder at all and makes perfect sense if he were only translating an authentic ancient document in which the often-used term "land of Jerusalem" meant more than just the city. The use of the term "land of Jerusalem" in Alma 7:10 and many other locations is consistent with usage in the Dead Sea Scrolls and can now be viewed as powerful evidence for the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith could not possibly have made that up.
Well, Smith was using a "seer" stone, right? This would be divination, which has the inherant danger of bringing men into contact with demons. The cleverness was on the part of the demon dictating the book to him, who would have known about the language in the DSS.
 
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