Backsliding

Do Believe Backsliding Means

  • Fallen from Grace

  • Not measuring up

  • Turning from God

  • For Israel

  • Not sure


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louis booth
well, you believe scripture teaches that, i do not.
believe me, i trust the scripture over anything else i dont doubt it in the least.
i see why you think it teaches that, but i really dont see it teaching that at all.

ephesains 2.8
salvation is the gift not of ourselves, not grace.
"...are ye saved, THROUGH FAITH: and not of yourselves"
its saying grace is the pathway unto the gift that isnt of ourselves, grace isnt the gift not of ourselves.

i said
"IF GOD PUTS FAITH IN PEOPLE. then i guess HE CHOSE FOR THE ONES WHO DONT HAVE FAITH TO GO HELL? "
you said
"This is a faulty statement. I don't believe in DOUBLE predesenation but I do believe in predesination."

i dont know why you think that statement is faulty. it is exactly what you are saying.

1.you believe that salvation is a completely independant work of the lord. (that our choice had no part in it)

2.so the determining thing would be whether or not GOD CHOOSES TO CREATE FAITH IN YOU AND CAUSE YOU TO SEEK HIM (totally independent of your own will or actions)

3.so, the only thing that is diffrent between me and the most evil of sinner THAT IS IN HELL NOW is simply that GOD MADE ME GET SAVED AND NOT HIM. (becuase your saying i had nothing to do with it anyway)

so, when a sinner dies and goes to hell. as all sinners must.
the only reason he will have gone there is simply becuase GOD DIDNT CHOOSE TO SAVE HIM. becuase you think GOD CHOOSING TO SAVE US IS THE ONLY DETERMINING THING.

so, what you teach DOES mean that god sends people to hell ententionally.

OR DO YOU NOT BELIEVE ANYONE IS REALLY IN HELL?
there certainly are people in hell as the bible clearly says.
and the bible says that gods will and plan is FOR ALL TO BE SAVED.
how did these people slip OUT of the plan of god? as you say cannot be done.

ok, pharaoh.
i myself in the last the 2 or 3 days have learned more about that situation, through my mother and my mentors.

romans 9.17,18
for the scripture sayeth unto pharaoh, even for this same purpose have i raised the up, that i might show my power in thee and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
therefor hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he will hardeneth.

that could be taken to mean,
THAT GOD SIMPLY CONTROLLED PHARAOH AND THAT GOD CONTROLLED PHARAOHS HEART SO THAT PHARAOH WOULDNT HUMBLE HIMSELF.
but it does not mean that. (it couldnt mean that and harmonise with the rest of scripture)

throughout the chapter we read of JACOB, ESAU, PHARAOH, MERCY, HARDENING.
it is simply saying that when god looks at our lives, and sees the way we are, it is not unrightouse for him to judge us. if he thinks we deserve punishment, then he can punish us, he is God. if he thinks we deserve mercy, he can show mercy, he is God. and no man can say to god that he has been dealt wrongly with, for God created all things and can do as he pleases with his creation.
IT IS NOT SAYING GOD SIMPLY DAMNS SOME, AND HAS MERCY ON CERTAIN OTHERS REGARDLESS OF OUR ACTIONS.

the only sense in which the lord HARDEND Pharaoh was in giving him the choice to harden his own heart or obey.
many times god is said to do the things that he simply PERMITS to be done.
god gave pharaoh the occasion to resist him and harden his own heart in the same way that the gospel saves or damns, makes alive or kills all who hear it today. any judgment or calamity which does not break the nature and subdue the life only hardens it. as the sun hardens clay and softens the wax so it is with truth. the result is not the sun,(or in god) but in the material.

2cor 2.15-17 says that WE (ministers of the gospel) are a sweet smelling perfume unto god in those who are saved, and in those who are not saved. to one we are a savor of death, to another we are a savor of life.

it simply means that hearing the gospel will either make you alive or damn you. but it is up to you. it destroyed pharaoh as it does to all who dont harken. he didnt hearken to it, SO IT HARDENED HIM. as he disobeyed more and more it hardened him more and more causing him to not let the people go. but it was a result of his own actions in union with the spoken word of god. the lord didnt simply control him, to not them go.

god doesnt make some die, and some live unless it is the justice deserved by their actions. he gives all men the chance and ability to obey him and find life, as is his will, becuase scripture does that say that is his will.
rom 2.11
for THERE IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS WITH GOD.

you said
"I'm treating you as a mature christian, should I not?"
but you also said
"Wow, so God doesn't already know? Umm..wrong-o!! "

you do not see me as a mature christian or treating me with respect.

you said
"I wouldn't talk this way to a nonbeliever..this is the WORKSHOP not the roundtables."
they will want to understand the basics of your belief before they accept your belief.
and if they asked you, you would need to tell them, whether you are in these forums or not.

i dont recall any belief of myne that i couldnt not explain to an unbeliever without fearing their rejection. becuase god is a good god, and he is good to all peoples.
 
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LouisBooth

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"its saying grace is the pathway unto the gift that isnt of ourselves, grace isnt the gift not of ourselves. "

No, if you look at the sentence structure it is talking about faith as being from God, else it would not also state in the bible that God is the founder of our faith. No man can come except the ones he calls.

"i dont know why you think that statement is faulty. it is exactly what you are saying. "

No, it is not. Do some background reading in calvinistic thought before you address this issue. I'm not a calvinist, but they do a great job of showing why its not.

"so, what you teach DOES mean that god sends people to hell ententionally. "

No, it doesn't. You seem to misunderstand it. Again, I suggest some reading before we go further in the conversation.

"THAT GOD SIMPLY CONTROLLED PHARAOH AND THAT GOD CONTROLLED PHARAOHS HEART SO THAT PHARAOH WOULDNT HUMBLE HIMSELF. "

No, taken in context it is saying, I'm God and I can do what I want, who are you to question me. I also want to know how you resolve verse 13 in that same passage where it says God hated Esau?

Then looking further into the passage how can you miss the statement in verse 16 "It does not, therefore, depend on mans' desire or effort, but on God's mercy. God saves, we do not. he TOTALLY saves. To say anything else is to have a pride issue. Can a slave save himself? NO. Can a potter tell the clay how to make him? No. I sugguest you re-read romans. :)


"you do not see me as a mature christian or treating me with respect. "

The second one was said in jest..I guess you missed the joking point of it?

"i dont recall any belief of myne that i couldnt not explain to an unbeliever without fearing their rejection"

Just as Christ spoke to his disciples different, so are we to speak to christians differently. Some things nonbelievers can't understand, so we should not talk to them about it. This is one such issue.
 
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it seems we are both very determined to believe what we already believe. haha, i know i am.

sentence structure. throughout the bible we read many scriptures structured in ways we would not say them today.
yet we still understand what was meant.
how can faith be the gift from heavon, in the new testament we constantly read about the gift from heavon, eternal life.
abraham had faith in the old testament, but not salvation.
faith didnt come with jesus, it already was. salvation and eternal life are what came with jesus, that is the gift.

well, why dont you explain how it doesnt mean that god sends people to hell, becuase i am totally convinced it does, no matter how many times you simply CLAIM it does not. i dont have the time or care to read into calvinism.

yes, it is saying
IM GOD I CAN DO WHAT I WANT. but that doesnt mean hes saying hell control every aspect of our lives, that is something he does not say there and that you simply put in.

esau
that scripture can be understood better from malachi 1.1-3
esau i have hated.
here the term HATE is an idiom of preferance, not a term of malice or jealosy. this is the 6th of 12 cases in scripture where god chooses the younger over the older brother. here it was becuase of the disposition and attitude toward him. esau was a fornicator and destitute of hunger for god in his life (hebrews 12.16-17) while jacob loved the lord and hungered to do his will.

you said
"It does not, therefore, depend on mans' desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
i fully agree.
but that doesnt mean you have nothing to do with it anymore, that your just set, . jesus said that A MAN WHO HAD PUT HIS HAND TO THE PLOW AND THEN TURNED AWAY, IS NOT FIT FOR THE KINGDOM. what is this turning away? and what is fit for the kingdom?

no, i will not reread romans at this time.

that doesnt matter, jesus never denied anyone truth. im not saying to go around blabbing things people dont understand, but if your asked, then you need to explain it. what will you say, OH I CANT TELL YOU THAT NOW! ITS A SECRET. YOU SIMPLY COULDNT UNDERSTAND! IM NOT SUPPOSED TO TELL YOU UNTILL YOUVE COMMITED! how will that make them feel?
you know it will be rejected.
 
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LouisBooth

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"abraham had faith in the old testament, but not salvation. "

Ah contrae....he did, for he was approved as righeous and had salvation through christ like the rest of us, Christ had not come yet, that's all. :)

"faith didnt come with jesus, it already was. "

*ahem* GOD gives us faith, not just specifically Jesus :)

"well, why dont you explain how it doesnt mean that god sends people to hell, becuase i am totally convinced it does, no matter how many times you simply CLAIM it does not. i dont have the time or care to read into calvinism. "

Then that tells me you really don't care to know about the matter, you have your mind set and even if God told you, you wouldn't believe it, so why should I waist your time?

"esau
that scripture can be understood better from malachi 1.1-3
esau i have hated.
here the term HATE is an idiom of preferance, not a term of malice or jealosy. "

You have proved me again, God plays favorites, that perfectly alines with my postion, and not with yours ;)

"i fully agree.
but that doesnt mean you have nothing to do with it anymore, that your just set"

I agree, God does it we allow it to happen. We have no part in salvation at all, nor do we have a part in faith.

"OH I CANT TELL YOU THAT NOW! ITS A SECRET"

Who did Christ explain the meaning of the pariable to? It wasn't the crowd...and you mean to tell me you don't think people asked him what it ment? Be a little realistic here. Some people are just simply not ready to hear things, maybe I shouldn't talk to you about this because you're not ready to hear it. As far as how I tell them, you're over-dramatising it. I would tell them out of love they are not ready to hear it, just as a 2 year old is not ready to hear about death, sex and many other subjects at that point in his/her maturity.

As far as this subject goes, I still adhere to my point and everything you have said, as I have shown you, reaffirms my stance.
 
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i dont see how what ive said agrees with you in the least.

you picked this statement out of my post to say i have.
"esau i have hated.
here the term HATE is an idiom of preferance, not a term of malice or jealosy. "

did you not read the rest of my post?
i said
"here it was becuase of the disposition and attitude toward him. esau was a fornicator and destitute of hunger for god in his life (hebrews 12.16-17) while jacob loved the lord and hungered to do his will. "
i clearly showed that i do not agree with you.
it was because of esau that esau was HATED in the sense of that word. not simply that GOD PLAYS FAVORITES. as a just god would not.

it is understandable that god would prefer ONE WHO LOVES AND OBEYS HIM, over ONE WHO DOESNT LOVE HIM OR OBEY HIM.
it is not that god simply PLAYS FAVORITES, BUT THAT HE IS A JUST GOD, AND JUDGES EVERYMAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS.
(not that works save us)
i dont see why you think we agree, or that i prove you.

my point about abraham is that he DID NOT OBTAIN ETERNAL LIFE. he went to HELL just like all sinners, only a place called abrahams bosoom. he did not have ETERNAL LIFE, salvation, as we do. the term "gift not of ourselves" is said that way in order to be contrary to the law of the old covenant previos to jesus.
JESUS BROUGHT this GIFT. what could he have brought?
it was not faith, because faith was already upon the earth.
ETERNAL LIFE in HEAVON was not.
WHATEVER THIS GIFT IS, IT CAME WITH JESUS.
it could not have been faith.
but
ETERNAL LIFE, SALVATION, INHERITING THE KINGDOM OF HEAVON, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT.
the gift NOT OF OURSELVES, OR NOT OF THE LAW, OR NOT OF WORKS, means SOMETHING GIVEN BY GRACE (of jesus), that is why it is called NOT OF OURSELVES, or NOT OF THE LAW.
it couldnt be something that existed before jesus, faith.

you said
"Then that tells me you really don't care to know about the matter, you have your mind set and even if God told you, you wouldn't believe it, so why should I waist your time?"

no, it doesnt mean that.
i will not look into such a herecy as CALVINISM to find truth. i will let a blind man lead me anywhere.
and i simply dont have the time for it anyway. i do care to know, but i wont use time and energy i dont have, to find out. i beleive pretty much everything god says, i do not believe YOU becuase YOUR THEORIES SIMPLY DONT MAKE SENSE, AND I DONT SEE HOW YOU GET YOUR CONCLUSIONS AT ALL.
you use 1 or 2 scriptures, and speculate on others to get your point, when i can use tons and tons of scripture that plainly states what i beleive. so, which is more likely to be true?

you said
"we allow it to happen. We have no part in salvation at all, nor do we have a part in faith."

if WE ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN, then WE DO HAVE A PART.
yet i agree we are not the creators or authors of our salvation, but it does require our cooperation.
that is all i am saying.
though i believe we have no part in faith isnt true.
is faith from god? yes.
but
faith does not operate on its own by god. we must put it into effect and we must choose to keep it, and we must choose aquire more faith on our own.

though i do agree that the ability to have faith is from god, as the ability to do good is from god, sense i beleive all people are naturally evil and not good.

i think im just now understanding what you beleive.
all things are created by god, and all abilities are given by god, im simply saying there operation and usage isnt fully dependant on god but us.
what he gives us are options, possibilities, abilities, but does not put them into effect himself. but WE do.

you said
"Who did Christ explain the meaning of the pariable to?"
i answer
anyone who was willing to listen and believe.
"he who has an hear to hear let him hear"
he did not bother with people who didnt believe or the prudent who would simply try to speculate and find loop wholes.
but he never denied those who were willing to listen, believe and hear the truth.

there are those who he didnt explain it too, but he also said this about those people
matthew 11.16-18
"but whereunto shall i liken this generation?
it is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows. and saying
WE HAVE PIPED UNTO YOU, AND YE HAVE NOT DANCED; WE HAVE MOURNED UNTO YOU, AND YE HAVE NOT LAMENTED
for john came neither eating nor drinking AND THEY SAY HE HATH A DEVIL.

it wasnt that god didnt entend ALL to believe, or didnt want ALL to hear. they were told, and simply didnt accept it. all of jerusalem went out to hear john the baptist preach, and he did preach the gospel of the coming of jesus and salvation by jesus christ. and ALL could have understood and believed.

i figured you will probly state this scripture in saying that isnt true.
matthew 13.11
it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heavon, BUT TO THEM IT IS NOT GIVEN.

you could take that to mean that some arent supposed to understand, and that you shouldnt explain things to unbelievers.
BUT READ ON AND SEE WHAT HE ELSE SAID ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE WHO IT ISNT GIVEN TO.
matthew 13.15
for this peoples heart is waxed gross. and their ears are dull of hearing and their eyes THEY HAVE CLOSED, LEST AT ANYTIME THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS AND SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND SHOULD BE CONVERTED AND I SHOULD HEAL THEM.

they chose to not understand, chose to not believe, chose to not see or hear what jesus preached and john preached.
IT IS NOT THAT GOD SIMPLY WITHHELD TRUTH FROM SOME, AND GAVE IT TO OTHERS. but it is that IT WAS REFUSED BY THE PEOPLE, AND GOD SIMPLY GAVE THEM OVER TO THAT and allowed them to stay in that place of no longer being able to understand or believe.
grace offers understanding to all men
"he who hath ears let him hear"

if someone comes seeking the truth, any truth, you should be able and willing to explain it to them.

1peter 3.15
...BE READY ALWAYS to give an answer to EVERYMAN that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you...

you would be wrong to withhold any truth from any soul that is willing to believe and thirts for the truth.

i really dont see why people think that unsaved people cant understand what the bible teaches. faith comes through reading the word, that is done BEFORE salvation becuase IT WAS THE USE OF FAITH that saved me IN THE FIRST PLACE. so, i must have had faith BEFORE I WAS SAVED.
so, i understood the bible before i was saved. i understood salvation before i was saved or i wouldnt have asked for it.

yes ONLY THE SPIRIT OF A MAN knows things. AND ONLY THE HOLYSPIRIT BRINGS REVELATION.
but i have a spirit before i am saved.
and the holyspirit strives with man and reveals truth to man BEFORE HES SAVED, OR HE COULDNT GET SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

though the amount of revelation is probly limited, since the striving of the holyspirit is to get a man saved more than it is to reveal mysteries.
but the ability to understand is still present. a mature man or woman is not on the level of an infant, whether they are saved or unsaved.

jesus said it in this order. matthew 13.15
1.SEE, HEAR.
2.UNDERSTAND.
3.CONVERSION.
4.HEALING.
understanding can and must come BEFORE salvation.
not after.


youve shown me nothing that means i prove your point.
 
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LouisBooth

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"it was because of esau that esau was HATED in the sense of that word. not simply that GOD PLAYS FAVORITES. as a just god would not. "

No, it didn't say because of what Esau did I hated him. It says I hated him. Don't add words to the bible ;)

"my point about abraham is that he DID NOT OBTAIN ETERNAL LIFE. he went to HELL just like all sinners, only a place called abrahams bosoom. "

Nope, he did not. You need to do some more research on this one. He did have salvation through the hope of the promice, just like we do, read romans.

"no, it doesnt mean that.
i will not look into such a herecy as CALVINISM to find truth. "

Sorry, if you haven't studied it then you can't call it herecy, that's just a witch hunt and you should be ashamed of yourself.

"JESUS BROUGHT this GIFT. what could he have brought?
it was not faith, because faith was already upon the earth. "

Christ brought his sacrifice as a gift. But faith has ALWAYS been from God, that's scriptural, I have you verses to back that up already.
Show me in the bible where it says faith doesn't come from God.


"you use 1 or 2 scriptures, and speculate on others to get your point, when i can use tons and tons of scripture that plainly states what i beleive. so, which is more likely to be true?
"

Umm..every scripture you have given me I have fit into and shown you how it proves my point. I have also given you WHOLE CHAPTERS that prove my points. Just because you don't bother to look them up, its not my fault. Don't be an osterage (sp).


"if WE ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN, then WE DO HAVE A PART. "

No you don't. I allow my child to burn himself to teach him a least not to touch the stove, am I at fault. No, it was his choice to touch it after I warned him. It is his choice. If you are saying its not then you are saying its God's fault for the fall of man or then God is not all-knowing take your pick. Either way, you're wrong.

""Who did Christ explain the meaning of the pariable to?"
i answer
anyone who was willing to listen and believe. "

No, he speicifcally told his disciples and no one else. Read the passage before commenting on it.

"if someone comes seeking the truth, any truth, you should be able and willing to explain it to them.
"

This was made in reference to me not wanting to address certain topics with nonchristians. I think I am in great company since Paul basically says the same thing. You wanna feel babies meat or throw pearls before swine?

"yes ONLY THE SPIRIT OF A MAN knows things. AND ONLY THE HOLYSPIRIT BRINGS REVELATION.
but i have a spirit before i am saved.
and the holyspirit strives with man and reveals truth to man BEFORE HES SAVED, OR HE COULDNT GET SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE.
"

Based on what you say here, again you prove my point it is God alone that saves us, or even gives us knowlege of how to be saved. Thanks for again proving my point, as I know you would :)

"youve shown me nothing that means i prove your point."

Then you haven't read your own posts. ;)
 
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but read the story of esau and youll see that is why.
READ THE WHOLE THING AND THINK ABOUT IT.
you say god plays favorites, but i quote.
"GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS"

IT IS A PLACE CALLED ABRAHAMS BOSOOM.
IT IS IN THE EARTH, YOU CAN SEE THE TORMENTING HELL ACROSS FROM IT. ABRAHAM DID NOT GO TO HEAVON.
is abraham there now? no. but was he? YES, UNTILL JESUS CAME AND LOOSED THEM. THEY WERE IN HELL LIKE THE REST FOR SIN THAT WAS NOT REMOVED UNTILL JESUS CAME TO REMOVE IT.
was it a place of torment? no. was it hell? yes.
WAS IT HEAVON? absolutely not.

i dont need to study calvanism to know that THEY BELIEVED THAT SOME PEOPLE WERENT SUPPOSED TO GET SAVED. i know enough about it to know its wrong, and its not worth looking into.

the gift jesus brought was
"LIFE, AND LIFE MORE ABUNDANTLY"(eternal life)
the sacrifice was only the way of preperatoin.
my point is, THE GIFT NOT OF OURSELVES, IS NOT FAITH.
ive already explained that.


you say
Umm..every scripture you have given me I have fit into and shown you how it proves my point.

you may think so, but you simply have not. i dont recall you doing that even one time, youve made claims but none that are proven biblicaly.

what chapters? the chapter about esau jacob pharaoh from romans? you say it means something that clearly contradicts other plain scriptures in the bible.
i have posted very long articles and put much time into my posts, you simply make claims and tell me to RESEARCH, and threaten to show me things that would prove me wrong, i ask you to show them and you do not.
the only thing i remember you telling me to read the WHOLE BOOK OF ROMANS. which i simply dont need to reread just becuase you think im wrong. and i wont, im studying other parts of the bible right now.
if you have imformation, post it here, as i have done for you.

i said
"if WE ALLOW IT TO HAPPEN, then WE DO HAVE A PART. "

and you replied with something totally unrelated.
IF WE MUST ALLOW GOD TO WORK IN OUR LIVES, THEN HE REQUIRES OUR COOPERATION, ***THAT IS WHAT THAT MEANS****
THEN WE DO HAVE A PART.
i already explained that. it is very true, and very clear.
am i saying that WE ARE THE AUTHORS OF OUR SALVATION?
no no no no no
NO NO NO!
BUT CAN GOD SAVE US IF WE DONT COOPERATE?
NO!

you said
No, he speicifcally told his disciples and no one else. Read the passage before commenting on it.

I DID READ IT, 2 DIFFRENT ONES ACTUALLY.
his dicsiples where the ones told becuase no one else was willing to listen! THE ONES THAT WERENT TOLD WHERE THE PHARISEES AND UNBELIEVERS! i already explained that to you.
and it doesnt neccesarily mean only the 12 disciples.
jesus had more disciples than 12, there is no reason to beleive that he only told it to 12 people.
and i clearly showed how god wants ALL to hear and understand.

you said
"You wanna feel babies meat or throw pearls before swine?"

i dont think what you believe is meat at all, and the term SWINE doesnt apply to sinners who arent yet saved but want to hear the truth and be saved.

i already told you that yes the revelation of sinners is probly limited, but the subject that we are now discussing is very easy to understand, i mean that it is easy to show what our points are. i am as saved as anybody, and i still dont find your beliefe as truth.


i said
"yes ONLY THE SPIRIT OF A MAN knows things. AND ONLY THE HOLYSPIRIT BRINGS REVELATION.
but i have a spirit before i am saved.
and the holyspirit strives with man and reveals truth to man BEFORE HES SAVED, OR HE COULDNT GET SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE.
"
you said
Based on what you say here, again you prove my point it is God alone that saves us, or even gives us knowlege of how to be saved. Thanks for again proving my point, as I know you would

actually it does not prove you.
i simply said that yes the ability and option does come from god. but i did not say NOR DO I AGREE that salvation has nothing to do with us.
IF WE DONT CHOOSE TO ACCEPT SALVATION THEN WE DO NOT GET SAVED. whether god wants us to or not.

im curious, how old are you? i am 20. im just curious.
 
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Hello, I am currently having this very discussion with a coworker. I was not aware that so many would believe this.

psalms 22.3...please be aware that "the faith" can mean the doctrines of the christian faith. Whereas saving faith is where you put your trust in Christ; that His sacrifice was sufficient to save you. I read most of the scripture that you mentioned earlier as proof that faith can be lost and it seemed clear that "the christian life" is what was meant, not "faith in Christ".

I also did a search at www.blueletterbible.org for "choose" and "choice"

Result: I saw many places where God chose something or someone (ex. God chose Abraham, God chose Israel). I saw no place where a man (or woman) "chose" Christ.

Perhaps I searched for the wrong word, if so please point it out to me.

Forgive me if I missed it but what was your opinion on the meaning of Eph. 2:8 ...saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Even when Peter called Christ "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God", Christ replied, "Blessed are you Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven."

Off Topic: The God we speak of created the entire universe, I am most certain He has earned the right to have His name capitalized (even in cyberspace)

In case you were wondering, I am 34...
 
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well,
the the christian faith is "THE FAITH" or THE BELIEF OF CHRISTIANITY.
and the act of believing it is "FAITH".

well take 2tim 4.7 for example.
i have fought a good fight, i have finished my course, i have kept the faith.

when paul said THE FAITH he didnt mean "THE FAITH" THAT I STATED ABOVE. becuase this was a personal thing for him, not THE TEACHING OF CHRISTIANITY IN GENERAL. it was his personal faith. he held on to it, and refused to succumb to doubt.
PAUL WAS NOT THE KEEPER OF THE DOCTRINE. there were many other apostles. and he said in 1 cor 9 that he could become a CASTAWAY or be cast away from god. but that wouldnt make all other christians be castaway as well, so paul is not the keeper of christianity.
this was his personal faith.

and the diffrence between THE FAITH of christianity, and out personal FAITH in it doenst change alot.

1 tim 4.1 and 5.12
clearly state that a person can leave or cast away "THE FAITH". departing from christianity.
5.12 says it was THEIR FIRST FAITH. they were really in it.
they really believed it. they were christians.
yes, there is a diffrence between "FAITH" and "THE FAITH".
but when one is a part of "THE FAITH" (agreeing with and partaking of christianity) it is only done through "FAITH" the real act of believing it and trusting it and entering in to it.
so, if we can leave "THE FAITH" then we can also cast off "FAITH". because only through "FAITH" were we a part of "THE FAITH" anyway.

there is a diffrence, but it is still clear that you can cast off or lose your personal "FAITH" in christ jesus willingly.
and that is clearly stated in other scriptures such as
hebrews 6.4-6, 10.25-30.

well, god didnt make abraham have faith in him.
he even tested abrahams faith by telling him to kill his only son. thus, god didnt simply make him have faith, or he wouldnt have needed to test it. the faith in abraham was the choice of abraham to believe and trust in lord, not something god arranged and made happen on his own.

yes god chose isreal for certain things and to fullfill certain purposes, but it wasnt like god simply made isreal do anything. there are many times that god was very angry with isreal for its actions.
stephen accused the isrealites and their children the pharisees of BEING STIFFNECKED AND UNCURCUMCISED IN HEART, RESISTING THE HOLYSPIRIT. he said the pharisees did it LIKE THEIR FATHERS DID.
that is just one small example of how isreal was not controlled by god, becuase they resisted him and killed his prophets.

well, there are many times in the bible were GOD GAVE MAN THE AUTHORITY AND RESPONSIBILITY TO CHOOSE HIM, LIFE OR DEATH.
as in duet 3.
THIS DAY I SET BEFORE YOU LIFE AND DEATH, CHOOSE LIFE.
matthew 13.15
for this peoples heart is waxed gross. and their ears are dull of hearing and their eyes THEY HAVE CLOSED, LEST AT ANYTIME THEY SHOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS AND SHOULD UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART, AND SHOULD BE CONVERTED AND I SHOULD HEAL THEM.
in this scripture we read of people actually preventing god from doing a work in their lives. the fact that THIS WAS THEIR CHOICE is far to clear to bother proving it.

eph 2.8
i believe and firmly hold the fact that the gift not of ourselves CANNOT BE FAITH. but it is SALVATION, ETERNAL LIFE.
ive gone to great lengths and detail to prove this in earlier posts.
FAITH is the pathway UNTO THE GIFT NOT OF OURSELVES,SALVATION, and it is the only pathway. BUT IT IS NOT THE GIFT.
the bible teaches that the way to salvation IS NOT THROUGH WORKS BUT THROUGH FAITH.
faith is the pathway. not the gift, or the destination, or the reward.
the contrast of
WORKS, AND FAITH, make it clear that they are both speaking 2 diffrent types of EFFORT. you can try to doit through WORK, or try to doit through FAITH.
faith is simply the pathway unto salvation, LIFE, AND LIFE MORE ABUNDANTLY. but it is not the final destination, the gift, the reward.
the gift not of ourselves is eternal life, not faith.

yes, god is the creator of the ability to have faith.
god the father gave peter the ability to realise that jesus was the son of god. did god force this faith upon peter?
if so, why did god remove his controlling hand and let him lose faith and deny christ 3 times later in his life?

god the father reveals this to us, and only him. so, if god doesnt reveal it to you, then you cant know, because of the dominion of SATAN, SIN and the blinding, sinful effect it has on our life.
but jesus also said HE WHO HATH EARS TO HEAR LET HIM HEAR.
IT HAS BEEN GIVEN UNTO YOU TO UNDERSTAND THE MYSTERIES OF THE KINDGOM OF HEAVON.
and the only ones who it isnt given too anymore were the ones who simply CLOSED THEIR EYES, AND HEARS. AND REFUSED TO LISTEN BY THEIR OWN CHOICE. hed spoken to them through john the baptist and jesus' preaching, but they refused. and god gave them over to that blindness which they choose themselves.
god gives revelation TO ALL PEOPLE. but even this only the OPTION of beleiving. BECAUSE THE PHARISEES AND OTHERS HAD THE ABILITY TO CLOSE THEIR EYES AND HEARS AND REFUSE TO BELEIVE IN THEIR HEARTS, PREVENTING GOD FROM WORKING IN THEIR LIVES.

so, god doesnt simply make anyone believe in him or control anyone to the point of obedience. he brings the ability, but doesnt control the response of the individual.

he predestined us. but that is simply what he predetermined will, it is his will for us. but that doesnt mean he will make us choose it.
the bible says in 2 tim 2.4 that his will, or predestined choice was and is FOR ALL TO BE SAVED. yet people are in hell now, which isnt debatable biblically.
so, aparently his predestination doesnt control the responce or action of the individual. it is simply his will or hope for the individual. he gives the ability and option of choosing this, but doesnt bring it to pass independantly.

well, there is no wrong in not capitalsing his name. he knows i honor him in my heart and esteem him glorious.
little restrictions like these are what made the pharisees what they were.
we all know that old law said YOU CANT WORK IN THE SABBATH!
so, the pharisees took that to ABSURD EXTREMETIES and said
you had to wear sandals on that day becuase if you went barefoot and your little toe drug the ground and made a furrow in the dirt that you were DIGGING A DITCH, and that was working on the sabbath. and that was breaking the law of god.
 
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LouisBooth

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"THEY WERE IN HELL LIKE THE REST FOR SIN THAT WAS NOT REMOVED UNTILL JESUS CAME TO REMOVE IT. "

No, they weren't. It wasn't hell they were in, check your greek. They had salvation, it was assured to them by God.

"i dont need to study calvanism to know that THEY BELIEVED THAT SOME PEOPLE WERENT SUPPOSED TO GET SAVED. i know enough about it to know its wrong, and its not worth looking into.
"

Actually from your posts you seem to know enough about it to mis-speak and offer up unread opinions on it. (trying not to be insulting, just stateing fact). Very few calvinists believe in double predesination. I sugguest (again) you go do a little reading.

"if you have imformation, post it here, as i have done for you.
"

Okay I will since you don't want to take the time and research the issue and just spout off about something you haven't read about. I appolgize if this sounds harsh, but you haven't read dittly about this subject nor (as you have stated) do you want to. You are content to go with your preconceived thoughts so if you want to be immature about it then we can just end the converstion now. Read romans chapter 3 and if that is just tooooo much to fit into your schedule then I guess this conversation is over, go with God and I hope you finally find the truth :)

Pstroke, i think you're on the right track. :)
 
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ok,
i did a small amount of research into calvinism for your sake. and this is what ENCARTA had to say about it, with no opinion, simply stating what CALVIN believed.
i believe encarta is a trustworthy source of information.

this is stated about him.
"As did the German religious reformer Martin Luther, Calvin denied that human beings were capable of free will after the Fall of Adam, but he went farther than Luther in elaborating a doctrine of predestination—that certain persons are elected by God to salvation, while others are rejected by him and consigned to eternal damnation."

http://encarta.msn.com/find/Concise.asp?z=1&pg=2&ti=761566731

i will never believe that that statement is founded on truth. that is what i originally thought this man believed, and encarta agrees. i do not believe this, and this is enough evidence for me MYSELF to decide that it isnt good for me to listen to his teaching.

if you yourself have sufficient evidence then post it, as i try to do, dont simply tell me to go research.

ok, just where do you think abrahams bosom is?
do you think it is in heavon?
you havent even said where you thought it was. this is like a single sided phone call, where im the only one talking.
you say WRONG, WRONG. but rarely offer me any information.

this will be quite long, but i want to prove my point.
luke 16.22-23
clearly states that a rich man IN HELL, could see into ABRAHAMS BOSOM.
the term abrahams bosom is jewish for "PARADISE BELOW".
it is in the lower parts of the earth. simply seperated from the tormenting part of hell by a great gulf. that you cannot cross over.

in duet 32.22 it describes a LOWEST part of hell.
there are actually 5 PARTS of hell, diffrent regions, abrahams bosom was one of them, untill jesus took those men held there out of it, and now HELL HATH ENLARGED itself, and it has taken over that region, abrahams bosom is now gone, but it did once exist and it was in the lower parts of the earth.

yes they were promised salvation, but thats all it was, ONLY A PROMISE OF THINGS TO COME. they were under the bondagde of sin untill jesus came and freed them. they could not yet go to heavon, becuase NO MAN COMETH TO THE FATHER EXCEPT THROUGH JESUS. they were under the old law, THAT MADE NO MAN RIGHTOUSE it only CONDEMNED YOU. sin condemned us THROUGH THE LAW. and untill jesus came, providing the PERFECT SACRIFICE, YOU COULD NOT GO TO HEAVON, because YOU WERE NOT RIGHTOUSE. so they went to abrahams bosom or the HOLDING PLACE untill jesus was able to bring them to heavon.

there is a PARADISE COMPARTMENT OF SHEOL,
and a TORMENTING COMPARTMENT OF SHEOL.

old testiment saints were subject to bondadge of satan untill jesus came and died destroying satans dominion over them.
hebrews 2.14-15
forasmuch then as the children are partakers of the flesh and blood, (jesus) he himself likewise took part of the same: [GLOW=red]that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death[/GLOW], that is, the devil.
15. AND DELIVER THEM, WHO TROUGH FEAR OF DEATH "WHERE ALL THEIR LIFETIME SUBJECT TO BONDADGE"

through death jesus freed those who where subject to bondagde, but ONLY WHEN HE DIED. and the devil STILL HAD THE POWER OF DEATH untill jesus died. this power of death is the figurative death in hell, untill jesus came and destroyed his power, SATAN STILL HAD THE POWER TO HOLD ALL DEAD MEN IN HELL. saint or not.

ezekeil 31.16
...i cast him down to HELL... (this is hell it is speaking of)
...shall be COMFORTED in the nether parts of the earth.
(there was a place of comfort in hell). abrahams bosom.

this is where lazarus was comforted and the rich man wanted some of the water that lazarus was enjoying.

job 14.13
oh that thou wouldest HIDE me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, UNTILL THY WRATH HAS PAST, THAT THOU WOULDEST APPOINT ME A SET TIME, AND REMEMBER ME!

abrahams bosom was a place of holding UNTILL THE SET TIME, (when jesus would destroy him who had the power of death, satan) it was a place of HIDING FROM GODS WRATH.
there was no removal of sin in the old covanent or law. the punishment was rolled back, but it was still there. THE WAGES OF ALL SIN IS DEATH. that is gods spoken law. all who have ever sinned MUST SUFFER DEATH IN HELL. but job and other saints were allowed to enter THE HIDING PLACE FROM GODS WRATH, (IT WAS HELL, BUT NOT A TORMENTING PART OF HELL) untill jesus came and was able to fully remove sin.

psalms 16.10
for thou will not LEAVE my soul IN HELL...

david went to hell. but wasnt left there forever.
he went to abrahams bosom. as all old testament saints did.

matthew 12.40
...so shall the son of man spend 3 days and 3 nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH.
jesus went into the heart of the earth.
luke 23.43
(jesus speaking to the theif on the cross)
...TODAY thou shalt be with me IN PARADISE.

jesus went into the earth for 3 days, on the first day the theif was with him in a place called PARADISE.
paradise was in the earth, it was a part of sheol, hell.

jonah 2.2
...out of the belly of HELL i cried...
hell is translated SHEOL.
jonah went to hell or paradise or abrahams bosom while his body was dead in belly of the fish.

jesus said that jonah was a picture of the ressurection, SOME SAY for this to be true, he must have been dead while in the belly of the fish.

ephe 4.8,9
...when he ascended up on high he led captivity captive...
...he descended first...

he went into paradise or hell, then ascended with the saints who were being held captive by satan into heavon.

anyway
in jonah 2.2 its called HELL.
in matt 12.20 its called the HEART OF THE EARTH.
in luke 23.43 its called PARADISE.
in luke 16.22 its called ABRAHAMS BOSOM.

they are all refering to the same place.
because thet all refer to death of RIGHTOUS MEN.

well dear friend, pray for me.
we all could use a little prayer.
i wish you luck as well, godbless you.
 
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psalm 22:3...

Quote: well, there is no wrong in not capitalsing his name. he knows i honor him in my heart and esteem him glorious.


Are you sure? Seems to me that God felt His name was very important. He even made a commandment about it.

Quote: we all know that old law said YOU CANT WORK IN THE SABBATH!
so, the pharisees took that to ABSURD EXTREMETIES and said
you had to wear sandals on that day becuase if you went barefoot and your little toe drug the ground and made a furrow in the dirt that you were DIGGING A DITCH, and that was working on the sabbath. and that was breaking the law of god.

Seems to me you are saying that we are no longer under the law. To which I would reply...that's what we have been trying to show you.
 
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LouisBooth

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" believe encarta is a trustworthy source of information. "

As most encyclopedias do, they sacrifice quaility info for the sake of not going into depth. Like I SAID before, I can recommend a book to you showing the difference if you really want to look into it. As a theology teacher the difference between double predestination and predestination.

"you say WRONG, WRONG. but rarely offer me any information. "

No, I said study the greek of that passage and get the real meaning of the word. I went through this with a guy named Michael a long time ago and it forced me to check it out. I urge you to do the same. Do a word study on hell in the bible, it doesn't mean what you think it means all the time.
hades..
"In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions,
a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common
receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of
the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. "

Did you see that..JUST THE ABODE OF THE WICKED.


"yes they were promised salvation, but thats all it was, ONLY A PROMISE OF THINGS TO COME"

Just like what we have...show me where it is written we go straight to heaven? Just to clarify, I never said they went to heaven, they went to a waiting place, but that place is not hell.

Where david when..."Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead"

not hell, keep your terms straight, just as I said before. Thanks for backing me up with those verses. Now go do a word study and realize they didn't go to hell.
 
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well, so encarta doesnt know what they are talking about.
well im not sure you do either then.
no, im not enterested in reading a book about it.
sorry.

yes the definition of the word may only mean HOLDING PLACE, and not have the word HELL written in it.
but that doesnt change the description of this place according to scripture. and it fits HELL.

JUST BECUASE IT ISNT FOR WICKED PEOPLE, AND THAT IT IS A PLACE OF COMFORT DOESNT MEAN IT ISNT HELL.

anyway, one thing you cannot dispute is that IT IS IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH. i say any region below the earth is a part of hell. you may disagree for some reason, but thats ok with me.

well, you quickly say i am not correct but that statement really that doesnt mean anything to me, i have provided enough evidence to say that YES I AM CORRECT.

you gave only 1 translation of the word.
there is
SHEOL.
HADES.
TARTAROS.
LIMNEN TOU PUROS.
they are all translations of the word hell.

YES IT IS THE ABODE OF THE WICKED.
but dont you see that the rightouseness that old testiment saints had did not remove there bodily and natural wickedness? THE LAW MADE NO MAN RIGHTOUSE!
they were rightouse in the sight of god and he looked over their sinfulness, but it was still there. so, these men were not cleansed, they were wicked naturally. and even though their faith was accounted as rightouseness, and offered them a hope of things to come, it didnt take away their sins. becuase only the sacrifice of jesus christ could ever remove sin. they were under bondadge of satan untill jesus came to free them from their sins.
only the blood of jesus can cleanse a man of unrightouseness.
though their was faith was accounted as rightouseness, and the punishment was rolled back OR POSTPONED.

the law was weak in this, it couldnt make a man rightouse.
the promise of true rightousness had not yet come.

NO WE ARE NOT SIMPLY WAITING ON THE PROMISE OF SALVATION LIKE THEY DID.
we have not gone to heavon. BUT WE ARE CLEANSED OF OUR SINS, TOTALLY FREE OF ALL CONDEMNATION, HOLY AND PURE.
RIGHT NOW! (that, they did not have)
becuase we have the blood of jesus NOW.
we have promises like 1john 1.9
if we confess and ask forgiveness then HE WILL CLEANSE US FROM ALL UNRIGHTOUSNESS.
there is nothing sinful or unholy, or unrightouse about the christian who takes hold of this promise and walks according to the spirit. THERE IS NO TRAIT OF SIN ON THEM.
they have been made rightouse, AS NO OLD TESTAMENT SAINT WAS.
no we arent the same as them in our waiting.
though we are waiting on the rapture to take place.

yeah david went to SHEOL. but this word is translated
HELL 31 times.
so, yes sheol is hell. it is not unreasonable to call sheol hell.
and this word SHEOL means
"the unseen world."
but it always refers to THE UNSEEN WORLD of departed spirits.

if hades is translated HELL, and your fine with that.
then on the same basis sheol can be called HELL as well.

uhh, im sorry but to tell you the truth, ive pretty much convinced myself that yes they did go to hell.
we both agree that they went to the same place.
you cant say it wasnt in the heart of the earth.
i say that means hell, you for some reason say it does not.
all the diffrent regions of it are translated HELL.

pstroke.
yes i am sure. when he tells me diffrent then i will change.
if you think i am wrong, pray that i would see the light and come into all knowlegde and wisdom.

us not being under the old law anymore has nothing to do with ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.
it doesnt mean you cant cast your salvation away.
paul said to NOT USE YOUR LIBERTY IN THE FREEDOM OF THE NEW LAW TO GIVE OPPURTUNITY TO THE FLESH.
he also said that if the didnt BEAT DOWN HIS FLESH AND CONTROL IT THAT IT COULD CAUSE HIM TO BE A CAST AWAY.

law or no law, throwing jesus away and trodding him under foot will damn you to hell. the only thing diffrent about the new law is THAT HE OFFERED YOU MERCY TO BE FORGIVEN AND CHANGED. he didnt change the consequences. you still go to hell for sin.
 
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LouisBooth

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"well, so encarta doesnt know what they are talking about.
well im not sure you do either then.
"

Have you ever written a college essay? Why do you think they don't allow general encyclopedias as a source?

"change the description of this place according to scripture. and it fits HELL. "

No, you're wrong. Hell is a designated place for the wicked to be kept for eternal torment. If you're going to redefine terms you need to make sure ALWAYS to tell people that. Ask a nonchristian or some younger christians if they think abraham was in hell, they will say, no he was in abraham's b. or shehol if they are biblical.

"but dont you see that the rightouseness that old testiment saints had did not remove there bodily and natural wickedness? "

wrong. Romans chapter 3 says otherwises. Abraham was declared righteous by God. You can also look in the OT and do a word search and the word righteous was used many times for talking about people that obeyed God.

"yeah david went to SHEOL. but this word is translated
HELL 31 times.
so, yes sheol is hell. "

Yes, and you've hit on the problem of english, its not descriptive enough. Shehol is not hell. Just like Love isn't agape all the time. English is not a speicfic enough language.

"if hades is translated HELL, and your fine with that.
then on the same basis sheol can be called HELL as well."

No, don't put words into my mouth I am not okay with it because one means hell and the other one doesn't.

and by your statements we see the problem.."ive pretty much convinced myself that yes they did go to hell.
"

You are locked in your position and neither God nor anyone else can change it.

"us not being under the old law anymore has nothing to do with ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED.
it doesnt mean you cant cast your salvation away. "

Umm..yes it does, I'm free of tha law through christ, thus the law can't be used to condemn me anymore and that is the only way someone can be condemned to die. Read romans chapter 3.
 
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Quote "they have been made rightouse, AS NO OLD TESTAMENT SAINT WAS."

Galatians 3:6 says "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. "

The bible cannot contradict itself.

The law says: be perfect and commit no sin and you will have everlasting communion with God Almighty.

It was impossible, no man before or since Christ was ever able to do it.

Result: all have sinned and come short of the glory of God (damned to Hell...you know, the REALLY bad one)

Propitiation: The perfect God/Man, Jesus Christ, died on the cross and paid once for all sins.

Payment must be activated: ...if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. (this is the point where God puts our sins as far away as the east is from the west...He remembers them no more)

Up to this point I believe we are all agreed?

Next...some would say that future sins are not covered by the previous washing, in this scenario...

The new believer is perfected at the point of his conversion, however, since he is still human and still has a human nature (which is a sin nature) he will still sin.

No christian lives out the rest of his life in perfection. Even the apostle Paul wrestled with sin. "...I do that which I would not do"

In this scenario, the new sins bring the believer into condemnation again since they were not washed away and sin is what separates man and God.

What then...

Hebrews 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

In this scenario, these verses would make it impossible for the sinner to return...therefore no man would ever be redeemed and the sacrifice of Christ would be for nothing

...

Please tell me that I have read you wrong.
 
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haha, will people ever agree on the bible? i really dont think so, not in this world.

louis booth
well, you dont have to believe the encycopledia, fine with me. that isnt really worth arguing over anyway.

haha, you convineintly copied my sentence like this and made it look like i meant to say i CHANGED the meaning of the word. i didnt.
...THAT DOESNT "change the description..."
i didnt redefine anything.

haha
DONT YOU READ WHAT I POST?
i already said that yes abraham was accounted as rightouse.
but was he washed clean of his sins?
ABSOLUTELY NOT! thats why they had to offer sacrifices OVER AND OVER AND OVER. becuase they werent rightouse AS WE ARE.
the rightouseness we have, IS NOT THE SAME AS WHAT THEY HAD.
what we have actually cleanses from all sin and gives the impartation of real holiness. what they had did not.

what abraham had was kind of like, LETTING SOMEONE IN THE BACK DOOR. he wasnt really rightouse, he wasnt cleansed of his sin.
it was ACCOUNTED as rightousness. it was like god said
"well, your not really rightouse, but ill accept your faith, and count that as your rightouseness."

no man was cleansed from the natural moral uncleanliness untill jesus' blood was shed. only jesus' blood washes white as snow.

jesus told cornelius that YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN! and only then can a man come to heavon.

hebrews 9.22
...WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD IS NO REMISSION!
so no, no man has ever been had remission of sin without the shedding of blood.
and youll probly say WELL ABRAHAM SHED LAMBS BLOOD.
well,
10.1
for the law having a shadow of good things TO COME, AND NOT the very image of the things, CAN NEVER with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
10.4
FOR IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SIN.

anyway, your wrong.
SIN CANNOT BE TAKEN AWAY WITHOUT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD.
and untill JESUS CAME there was no blood available that was effective.
so no, THERE WAS NO MAN CLEANSED OF SIN UNTILL JESUS CAME AND DIED!

though god called them rightouse anyway. but untill a man is born again he cannot enter heavon. and he isnt cleansed of sin. so, they were still naturally fleshly wicked people, the sin wasnt removed. only looked over. ours is not looked over BUT CLEANSED, because of 1 john 1.9

you dont think SHEOL is hell becuase you think people in sheol were rightuose in the sense that they were cleansed of sin. and since hell is for wicked people, you dont think sheol is hell.
but the thing is, the old testiment saints werent cleansed of sin, only blood can do that, and the old covenant offered nothing more than a shadow, picture, or resemblance of what would one day come and really cleanse men of sin.

as hebrews 10 says, there was no real cleansing of sin untill jesus died.
abraham was only accounted as rightouseness.
look at this it amased me when i read it.

ACCOUNTED=LOGIZOMAI
to take an inventory, estimate, conclude, count, despise, ESTEEM, impute, lay, number, REASON, RECKON, SUPPOSE, THINK.

the rightouseness was in the mind of god, god esteemed him rightouse, thought him as rightouse,
RECKONED HIM RIGHTOUSE.
haha I RECKON GODS A SOUTHERNER! HAHA
yehawww buddy. ha

ok, in all seriuosness, this doesnt imply bodily, moral, cleanliness or purity like WE CHRISTIANS CAN HAVE TODAY.
but simply that god looked upon him this way, and didnt look at the sin that was in his life. god covered up the sin as to not see it, so he wouldnt have to judge them.
as job asked god to HIDE HIM IN THE GRAVE FROM THE WRATH OF HIS LAW, paradise was a hiding place, a place that hid you from gods wrath.

yes i am convinced.
you or god show me diffrent and ill change. but i simply dont believe you will.

the law is the only thing can condemn you to die?

the gentiles had no law. they were never ever under it.
but they still died. they didnt go to heavon because only those who are BORN AGAIN can go to heavon.
the absense of jesus christs work in your life will force you to hell. a saved person can take part in christ, but then choose to cast away jesus and leave him. then having no more sacrifice for sin.
this isnt preaching legality or any LAW.
simply that we still have the free-will to do as we please, to choose to turn back to a hell bound life.
i dont know why anyone would, im simply saying its possible.

pstroke
yes, i agree that future sins are not yet covered.
becuase if we sin again after receiving the truth, there is no more sacrifice for sins.
and this is speaking of a saved man because he has the SACRIFICE.

though i dont agree that a person still must live in sin, becuase through the spirit of god we can crucify our flesh and fullfill the rightousness of the old law. but if we do sin, we have an advocate with the father and can simply confess that sin and have it forgiven.

paul said I DO THAT WHICH I WOULD NOT when he was talking about his previous life under the law in the flesh. giving us a picture of his old life.
he wasnt saying he was still this way. anyman can crucify or mortify his flesh through the spirit and walk in the spirit. he even said he had to beat his flesh down, and did.

when it says THEY CANNOT BE RENEWED to repentance.
it means you cant get them to come back.
it doesnt say they cannot have grace, they cannot have mercy, or a second chance. it says they cannot be renewed or brought back to repentance.
v 4-6 is talking about men who have chosen to go back to their old life and simply refuse to return to god.
not that god doesnt have mercy and grace to forgive them.
he always does.
if any man sin he has an advocate with the father.
he can always come back.
but it says that these have TROD JESUS UNDER THEIR FEET. like throwing him down and stomping on him.
when i mess up and sin i dont do this.
i struggle and fight and sometimes lose, and fall back into sin, but it isnt that im willingly choosing to do something that represents stomping on jesus and forsaking him forever by choice.
i confess those sins and go on with my life, striving to get better and better.
not for my glory, but to be more like my father. i want to please him.
 
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