Antichrist one person?

GW · Apr 9, 2002

Willis Deal Said:
GW, your question about what theology I follow and when my views became the dominate view... Well, I never implied that my views were the most popular. As far as I know I may be the only person in the world who holds my particular viewpoint on prophecy. I believe that many people have part of the truth, but I disagree with other things which they believe.

You had implied that the Holy Spirit wasn't backing full preterism because it has never been the mainstream view. Mainstream doesn't equal correctness, and I know you agree.

Willis Deal Said:
I believe that prophecy is too complicated for any one person to have a full understanding of exactly what it all means. After much prayer and study I came to the understanding that God is not limited to fulfilling prophecy just one time in only one way. It can be spiritual and literal, it can have a fullfillment over a long period of time and still have a specific fulfillment at a future time. As such, I can see the truth in the historic view, truth in the amillennial view, truth in the preterist view, truth in the premillennial view. What I don't see is the truth in one particular view negating the truth in another view.

Is that your position concerning ALL prophecy? Can I assume that you believe there will be a future redemption of man through some sacrifice? In other words, your thought here opens the door for a future Calvary. Perhaps the establishment of a new Church. Another virgin birth. I think you may have confused Old Testament typology (shadows and types) with the realities of Christ and the New Covenant (which are not mere shadows and types).

Willis Deal Said:
After all, weren't some things sealed (hidden) until a future time? Aren't we told that knowledge will increase? It doesn't matter when a particular teaching developed, it matters whether it can be supported from the word of God.

The answer to your question is yet another proof of the preterist view. The angel told Daniel that some things were sealed until a future time, but when that time came in the first century the angel tells St. John just the opposite of what Daniel was told:

Daniel 12:4,9
"But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time.

--COMPARE TO--

Revelation 22:10
He said to me, Don't seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand.

So we see that a the time of Daniel's visions concerning the end he was told to seal up the words until the endtime arrived. Yet we see that St. John is IN THE ENDTIMES and thus he is told "Do NOT seal up the words BECAUSE THE TIME IS AT HAND."

That's just one more proof of the preterist view, which restores the book and its fulfillment to its historic time, place, and audience. The book was for the Church in the first century, and without question they would have understood it as such. OUR attempts at reconstructing the vision of that book as if it was intended to fit our times is a grave error against proper context in every imaginable sense. It is also a blatant disregard for the historical context St. John gives for the vision when he boldly proclaims:

Revelation 1:1,3
This is the Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things which must happen soon...Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written in it, for the time is at hand.

That clearly defined historic context is established throughout the entire book.

GW · Apr 9, 2002

Dear Catchup:

Nice job discussing the Kingdom of God. Glad to see you post that it is here -- for certain it arrived on time (Mark 1:15). I must also comment that if you believe the Kingdom spoken of by Jesus is the same Kingdom foretold by the O.T. prophets then you are a preterist by logical necessity. Neither the O.T. prophets nor the N.T. apostles and Christ taught of two advents or Kingdoms separated by thousands of years. The bible only knows of ONE Messianic generation -- the generation the apostles and Christ lived in (Matt 24:34).

You also separated out his work as judge as something Christ did not accomplish in his so-called "first" coming [there is only one advent]. But the N.T. records that this judgment was determined to fall during THEIR OWN generation at the close of the Old Testament Age:

John 12:31
NOW is the judgment of this world: NOW shall the prince of this world be cast out.

2 Timothy 4:1
I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, WHO IS ABOUT TO judge the living and dead at his manifestation and his reign

Matthew 3:7,10
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned YOU to flee from the wrath to come?...THE AXE IS ALREADY LAID AT THE ROOT OF THE TREES; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

1 Peter 4:17
because IT IS THE TIME OF THE BEGINNING OF THE JUDGMENT

Do we have a graphic depiction of that judgment? Yes we do, and from the lips of Jesus:

Matthew 23:31-38
"So you testify against yourselves, that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers. "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell? "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city, so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate!

And, finally, you quote 2 Thess 1:7-10 and imply that it did not come to pass for the Thessalonian congregation as Paul promised them. Paul promised them rest from their present affliction WHEN JESUS WAS REVEALED to take vengeance upon their persecutors. You believe that failed to happen, and that makes Paul out to be a false witness. Yet the Thessalonians were expecting to be alive in their bodies until the second coming as told by Paul (1 Thess 5:23; 1 Thess 4:15). Did that expectation fail too? Remember, we have a record of MANY of the first century Churches being promised that their affliction would be relieved by a personal coming of Jesus Christ to them (Revelation 3:1-3; 2:5; 2:20-25; 3:10-11). If Jesus did not fulfill his promise to come to them and preserve them from the tribulation that came upon the whole empire then our Lord is a liar [or a lunatic] and failed his own flocks which he promised to establish and preserve. Is that a Good Shepherd?

Catchup · Apr 9, 2002

Paul had no idea when the second coming of Jesus would occur. :sorry:

Matthew 24:36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Paul was doing the same as many religious figures throughout time. He was urging people to prepare because Christ return is imminent. No one is ever assured of a tomorrow. :angel:

Look at this Bible passage and then tell me I slept through it. :sleep:

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
26"So if anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, `Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29"Immediately after the distress of those days

" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

Jesus will return a second time in the future. But how can I be truthful when we look at this passage?

Matthew 24: 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

This is of course the words of Jesus. He spoke that he would be back before this generation passes away. So now because you do not understand you assume that I think Jesus a liar?

I will explain this misunderstanding if you wish. But I do not insist that I take the cover off your head. If you find comfort in the dark then that is where you should stay. Like I said before you are a Christian. Keep firm in your faith and you will do fine.

LOVE

GW · Apr 9, 2002

Originally posted by Catchup
Paul had no idea when the second coming of Jesus would occur.

Paul only did not know the day or the hour. He did know the season and claimed that many of the Thessalonians would remain alive the Day of Christ:

1 Thessalonians 4:15
for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the coming of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep

Paul promised the Hebrew members of his day that it would come to them in just a very, very short time, not thousands of years:

Hebrews 10:37
for yet a very very little [while], He who is coming will come, and will not tarry;

So short, in fact, that they were to even gather more often as they watched the Day of the Lord coming upon them:

Hebrews 10:25
not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another and so much the more, as YOU [the 1st century churches] see the Day approaching

Paul knew exactly WHEN the last days were and he said so:

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come

Hebrews 1:1-2; 9:26
God...in these last days has spoken to us in His Son

Originally posted by Catchup
Paul was doing the same as many religious figures throughout time. He was urging people to prepare because Christ return is imminent. No one is ever assured of a tomorrow.

Click to expand...

Then Paul was in grave error. Paul said the time was short, claiming to know that (1 Cor 7:29; Heb 10:37). Therefore Paul tells the Corinthians to be as though they were not married even to their spouses, and to not seek marriage or divorce, or to manage property (1 Cor 7:26-31). That's how short time was. It was stopping them from even carrying out normal covenant responsibilities. What a mistake the Corinthians made if they followed his foolish endtimes madness concerning an event that was not even within 20 centuries of his time! Would you follow the advice of any preacher today who told you not to seek marriage or divorce and to neglect your mortgage because we are in the endtimes?

Finally, Matthew 24 was spoken to and for the apostles and their contemporaries. THEY are the "YOU" spoken of throughout the entire discourse. Catchup, you are not the "YOU" spoken of in that chapter -- the APOSTLES are the "YOU" spoken of in that chapter that were promised to see persecution (Matt 24:9-10) and to see the Abomination of Desolation and flee Jerusalem (24:15-20) and to indeed SEE ALL THESE THINGS that Jesus spoke, exactly as He promised them:

Matthew 24:33-34
So YOU also [the apostles], when YOU SEE all these signs, may be sure that He is near--at YOUR very door. I tell YOU in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away without all these things having first taken place.

Willis Deal · Apr 9, 2002

Well GW looks like I'm going to have to give up on you ever getting around to answering my questions about the second beast in revelation and the man of sin. I assume if you'd had a ready answer to those questions you would have long since posted it here. Since you're only going to give me the nero answer for the first beast I'll take a few minutes to refute that position. The link you posted as your 'proof' contained only a few points.

1. Audience Relevance
Assumes the book of Rev. was written before 70AD. There is no conclusive proof the book was written before 96AD and quite a bit of internal and external evidence for the later date. I've read views from both sides and at best the point is inconclusive, though 96AD seems to have better support. Do a search in google and you'll see this topic debated to death. Therefore, any proof that depends upon an unproven dating of Rev. is flimsy.

2. Contemporary Expectation
This is just a reworking of point number 1 and is weak for the same reason.

3. The Seven Heads of the Beast
Gentry dwells only on a couple aspects of the total image. It is easy enough to fit Nero as one of the heads if you identify the seven heads as kings and the kings which have fallen represent Caesars. However, in order to conclusively show Nero as the sixth head it would be necessary to tie in the ten horns which also are kings, the second beast with the little horns, the eighth head which comes from the seventh head etc. Gentry completely ignores all these symbols. He also places undue emphasis on the sixth head, when in reality it is the eighth head that that is of the seven that receives the emphasis.

3. The Beast Out of the Sea
Here Gentry attempts to show that Nero Caesar's name calculates to 666. While that may be true it is also true of many other names, as shown by different speculators down through history. Let's see, Adloph Hitler, Ronald Reagan, The Pope, can all be manipulated to = 666. While this evidence may help support Gentry's case it certainly isn't a proof.

4. The Beast Arising from the Dead
At this point Gentry is forced to switch from kings to kingdoms since Nero obviously didn't arise from the dead. Nothing wrong with that but it does show that Gentry has moved from trying to make a point to defending his position from a flaw that would sink his whole story.

5. The Mark
Strangely enough Gentry is also silent on this point. GW's possible explanations that it could have been money, or it could have been a certificate showing offering to Caesar, etc. are pure speculation and don't fit the scene shown in revelation.

All in all I've read better stuff from the seventh day adventists. At least they make the effort to interpret all the symbols instead of picking out one or two and ignoring the rest.

Willis Deal · Apr 9, 2002

So far I've not been too harshly critical of the preterists attempts to isolate verses from the rest of the bible, but let's look for a moment at a few verses which the preterists can't stand to have put together.

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

It has long been acknowledged that 'her seed' is the very first prophecy of the coming messiah. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the serpent is Satan. Since 'her seed' was the Son of God, what does that tell us about the '(serpent's) seed?' At the very least there is the implication that some day there will be a 'Son of Satan'.

In the 11th chapter of Zechariah we see a wonderful prophecy of the coming messiah, how he will be broken to break the covenant with Israel, even giving the exact amount of money (thirty pieces of silver) which was given in exchange for the life of the messiah. Immediately after that prophecy we find:

Zec 11:15 And the LORD said unto me, Take unto thee yet the instruments of a foolish shepherd.
Zec 11:16 For, lo, I will raise up a shepherd in the land, which shall not visit those that be cut off, neither shall seek the young one, nor heal that that is broken, nor feed that that standeth still: but he shall eat the flesh of the fat, and tear their claws in pieces.
Zec 11:17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

This 'foolish shepherd' is contrasted with the Messiah. This must really be somebody important to rate giving him billing right beneath the Son of God. So now we have at least two passages from the OT which seems to show two very important people in the history of the world. Is a trend developing?

Joh 5:43 I {Jesus} am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

Jesus came as Messiah in the name of the father and Israel as a nation rejected him. This certainly carries the implication that Israel will accept (as Messiah) someone who comes in his own name. Here again we see Messiah contrasted with another. All the verses so far quoted show one remarkable man (Jesus Christ) and compares him to another person. All the verses are tied together by a common theme, the messiah, so we aren't lifting anything out of context nor are we adding anything because the content of the verses themselves show that they go together. The picture up to now shows 1)seed of satan 2) a foolish shepherd who cares not for those under his authority 3)one who comes in his own name and is accepted as messiah. Let's continue...

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

WOW, check it out... a man of sin who claims to be GOD! He is the son of perdition (does that have any similarity to being the seed of satan?) He sits in the temple, certainly seems as though this man is declaring himself to be the messiah doesn't it? But wait... there's more!!

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Wow, satan pulls out all the stops and this man is coming with ALL the power and signs and lying wonders of satan. The Lord himself consumes this man with the Spirit of his mouth and brightness of his coming. Now these phrases should ring a bell here.

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Yet another prophecy about a man who receives power from satan, speaks blasphemies, who is worshipped, and yet there is even more!!!

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Now doesn't that verse about the sword coming out of his mouth remind you of that previous verse where the man of sin is consumed by the spirit from his mouth?

Can anyone really say with a straight face that all these verses don't fit together? I've listed only a few verses which point to a man who receives power from satan, a mighty ruler, who defiles the temple of God with his blasphemy. A man of such great importance in the history of the world warrants more than just a few verses, and this powerful man is mentioned numerous times in the bible. It would take me the better part of a day to list all references to him, and more than likely I'd miss some of the more obscure passages. But the verses I have listed paint a pretty clear picture and if you have eyes to see you can glean a lot more details from the bible if you'll take time to read it.

GW · Apr 9, 2002

Willis,

Why have you not answered my questions about 2 Thess 2? I have asked you point blank for your interpretation on HOW 2 Thess 2:4-7 can remotely speak of something in our future. I truly wanted to hear your reasoning before proceeding, but you won't answer.

(#1) Here's a link that explains how the AoD was fulfilled in the years 66-70AD:

Abomination of Desolation -- FULFILLED!

(#2) Here are two links to proofs that Revelation was written before Jerusalem Fell. One is a message board posting and the other is a link to THE definitive book on the subject by Dr. Kenneth Gentry, which it appears you might be reading through???

The Dating of the Book of Revelation: AD 66-68

Before Jerusalem Fell
by Kenneth Gentry

(#3) If you are looking for a definitive commentary on the book of Revelation, then you can read one of the most well-respected books on the subject at the university level by clicking here:

The Days of Vengeance
by David Chilton

Remember, we all agree that Revelation is the same thing as the Olivet Discourse. Preterists along with MANY of the Church Fathers and great expositors down the centuries have shown that the Olivet Discourse is past. Therefore, Revelation is also past.

GW · Apr 9, 2002

Originally posted by Willis Deal
It has long been acknowledged that 'her seed' is the very first prophecy of the coming messiah. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the serpent is Satan. Since 'her seed' was the Son of God, what does that tell us about the '(serpent's) seed?' At the very least there is the implication that some day there will be a 'Son of Satan'.

But the bible never ever says there is some single Son of Satan. The title "son of perdition" was a common title that stood for anyone destined to ruin and destruction, such as Judas (John 17:12). The Son of Perdition of 2 Thess 2 is just another Zealot like Judas.

Next, Genesis 3's discussion about the defeat of satan has a "WHEN" attached to it by Christ and Paul and St. John:

Romans 16:20
The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. [a clear reference to Genesis]

John 12:31
Now is the judgment of this world. Now the prince of this world will be cast out

1 John 3:8
He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

To suggest that Christ didn't accomplish that very thing for which he was revealed is a stripping of the gospel of its victory.

Next, Zechariah 11 has NOTHING to do with some future Mr. World Ruler fella. The passage initially referred to the High Priest in Jerusalem (Onias III) and the three shepherds were likely Jason, Menelaus and Alcimus. Both F.F. Bruce's commentary and the MacMillan commentary by J.R. Dummelow point this out. The typology, therefore, for Christ's time would speak of the wicked High Priests and the rulers that Jesus addressed as the "sons of satan" in John 8. These ones and their followers performed the full corruption of the ruling priesthood in Christ's generation which brought total destruction and the universal judgment (according to Matthew 23:31-38).

I have already given a link to explain the AoD and the false Messiah-King who literally performed 2 Thess 2:4 in 66AD, bringing the Nation into judgment with Jehovah and Christ who destroyed the harlot Nation of Israel under the Romans.

Catchup · Apr 9, 2002

OK, GW...I am out of here. You are wrong but you refuse to listen to any views other than your own. I find it extremely insulting when you tell others, that they are doing something wrong because they do not agree with your take on things.

If you read a thread on the roundtable it might help you understand the double meaning of generation. It is on the fourth page and is called...Something of Interest. It has some other cool stuff. It was used to prove the Bible accurate. Because the Bible is infallible...what is lacking is our understanding.

You truly are not as enlightened as you think! I believe that you fear the idea of Jesus returning and a new Earth. If that is true then stay as you are. But do not judge others to be wrong because they can see the truth of the Bible.

By the way ...You did not give me your insightful explanation of these verses.... :scratch:

Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, `Look, here is the Christ!' or, `There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
26"So if anyone tells you, `There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, `Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29"Immediately after the distress of those days

" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.

LOVE

GW · Apr 9, 2002

Originally posted by Catchup
If you read a thread on the roundtable it might help you understand the double meaning of generation. It is on the fourth page and is called...Something of Interest. It has some other cool stuff. It was used to prove the Bible accurate.

Hi Catchup. Apologies if you find my occasional suggestion that others have not done their fullest homework to be insulting. I don't know if I have suggested such of you. But either way, it sure beats being called liars, apostates, and fearful by those who disagree (I've been called all here at this board). LOL.

As for your claim on THIS generation, I will point out that the phrase is listed nearly 20 times in the New Testament. In not ONE single case does the phrase mean any generation other than the generation to whom it was spoken. Here's a sampling to suggest that "THIS generation" always means the contemporary generation of the one who is speaking it:

Matthew 11:16
"But to what shall I compare THIS GENERATION? It is like children sitting in the market places, who call out to the other children...

Matthew 12:41
"The men of Nineveh will stand up with THIS GENERATION at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here

Matthew 23:36
"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon THIS GENERATION

Mark 8:12
Sighing deeply in His spirit, He said, "Why does THIS GENERATION seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to THIS GENERATION."

Now, Catchup, which of these passages just listed means anything other than the generation to whom Jesus was speaking? The answer is none -- they ALL mean the generation to whom Jesus is speaking. This is true of EVERY single mention of "THIS GENERATION" in the New Testament (nearly 20 listings). Now, this proves that Matthew 24:34 also means the same thing. If it meant some FUTURE generation then Jesus would have said so. Translators understand this full well. Let's take a look at many translations of Matthew 24:34. You'll notice that not ONE changes the meaning to say "THAT generation" or even "THAT FUTURE generation":

New English Bible:
"I tell you this: the present generation will live to see it all."

Today's English Version:
"Remember this! All these things will happen before the people now living have all died."

Moffatt's Translation:
"I tell you truly, the present generation will not pass away, till all this happens."

Contemporary English Version:
I can promise you that some of the people of this generation will still be alive when all this happens.

Weymouth's Translation:
"I tell you in solemn truth that the present generation will certainly not pass away until all this has taken place."

King James:
"Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."

Finally, why move on to the next series of questions when we haven't reached a conclusion on the one we've been on, namely Matthew 24:33-34?

If you want to sneek a peek ahead on what to expect when we go verse by verse in Matthew 24 I suggest you simply read Church commentaries on Matthew 24 by Eusebius, Chrysostom, or perhaps John Wesley or John Lightfoot (part-author of the Westminster Confession). I'll save you the effort and simply link the notes from Liberty University's notes on preterism. This one-page summary packs a lot of info into one easy-to-read note series:

Liberty University Theology Course
--Preterism--
http://www.liberty.edu/courses/theo250/preterism.html

Christ's riches to you!
GW

parousia70 · Apr 9, 2002

Originally posted by Willis Deal

3. The Seven Heads of the Beast
Gentry dwells only on a couple aspects of the total image. It is easy enough to fit Nero as one of the heads if you identify the seven heads as kings and the kings which have fallen represent Caesars. However, in order to conclusively show Nero as the sixth head it would be necessary to tie in the ten horns which also are kings, the second beast with the little horns, the eighth head which comes from the seventh head etc. Gentry completely ignores all these symbols. He also places undue emphasis on the sixth head, when in reality it is the eighth head that that is of the seven that receives the emphasis.

I believe the 7 heads are representative of the Herodian dynasty,(7 Herods).

During the time of the Herodian Dynasty, there were a grand total of 10 Ceasers. The 10 horns represent the 10 ceasers that the Herodian Dynasty recieved their power and authority from.

Manifestation1*AD70 · Apr 9, 2002

Originally posted by Willis Deal

manifestation,

What the early christians thought concerning resurrection is relevant only if it is in agreement with the word of God. Paul taught the resurrection and tied it so closely to the resurrection of Christ that to deny the physical reurrection of the body is to deny the physical resurrection of Christ.

Sometimes we discover statements that disturb what we have been taught and challenge us to rethink our long held views. :scratch:

Such is the case with II Thessalonians 2:1-2.

"Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come." [New American Standard]

A similar passage is found in II Timothy 2:16-18.
What is so challenging about these verses? Please ask yourself the following question: If the day of the Lord is, as you and I have always been taught, a time ending, universe destroying event, how in the world could the Thessalonians ever have been convinced, as they obviously were, that the day of the Lord had ALREADY COME?

All they had to do when any one would suggest such an idea was say "Look around! The earth is still here. Time marches on. Obviously, the day of the Lord has not come!" The same could be said of the passage in II Timothy. If the resurrection is when all the physical graves are opened, when Jesus bodily, visibly descends on a cloud with the audible sound of a trumpet: how could any one convince those at Ephesus that it had already happened?

Paul certainly does not try to alter their views on the (nature) of the resurrection and Parousia; only the order of it. Had their perception of the resurrection and Parousia been in error and Paul not corrected them, that would mean Paul was in error and not Spirit lead.

Their only error was in believing the day had (already come.) There is not one single word by Paul about any mistaken views on their part as to the nature of the resurrection and the day of the Lord. It is obvious in both passages that Paul, the Thessalonians and the Ephesians had a different concept of the nature of Christ return. Honest students cannot ignore Biblical language. For too long we have ignored or failed to see the language of imminence and other problems in scriptures.

Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the "resurrection has already taken place," and thus they upset the faith of some. The question then that arises. How did they upset the faith of some? The reason this premature announcement by the heretics would overthrow the faith of some was that it put a consummation of the spiritual kingdom while the earthly temple in Jerusalem still stood (Hebrews 9:8). The writer of Hebrew states the way into God's presence was "not open to man" as long as the earthly Temple was standing.

In other words, Hymenaeus and Philetus were telling the Jewish brethren that the resurrection of the dead happened under the Old Covenant system and thus were trying to lead them from Christ back to Judaism which would be apostasy (1 John 2:19). Paul had trouble with the Jews on this point he called Gentile Christians who sought to keep the Law, foolish! He asked who bewitched them to turn from the truth of Christ crucified and their justification by faith. Paul puts grace in perspective when he writes, I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain,'(Galatians 2:21)

There is NO indication that Hymenaeus and Philetus were mistaken as to the nature of the resurrection either. :scratch:

Their error was only in saying that the "DAY" had already come!

Catchup · Apr 9, 2002

Now, Catchup, which of these passages just listed means anything other than the generation to whom Jesus was speaking? The answer is none --

GW; I agree with this statement... but not with your understanding of what Jesus meant when using the term generation. Also the Today's English Version and the Contemporary English Version are translated wrong.

Now it is your choice. I do not care one way or the other. If you want to understand then go to the thread on the roundtable of this forum called ...Something of Interest.I started the thread a few days ago. It is on the fourth page. There is also a web site listed on the thread that will open your mind. Read the web site and all my post on the thread. If you do this and still feel you are right then I will listen.

LOVE

parousia70 · Apr 9, 2002

GW, I'll save you the time. I checked out that thread...here's the jist of what catchup is claiming "generation" means.

What I found the most interesting was the idea of generations. We think of a generation as the people that our living at any given time ...as to say this generation.
That caused confusion when Jesus talked about him returning for the present generation.

But this study brings out that generations could instead of referring to people...refer to the Earth itself.

Generations of the Earth

(1) Generation of the Earth... dinosaurs and the like

(2) Generation of the Earth... Adam and Eve

(3) Generation after flood with Moses...US

(4)Generation of the Earth...Christ and the new Earth!

Jesus spoke the truth when he said he will be back during this generation. When the Earth is destroyed, we do not need to build an Ark like Noah. We only need to be secure within the loving arms of Christ.

A new Generation and a new Earth. This generation will not pass without the return of Christ. The Bible is infallible. It is our understanding that need work.

Catchup, while that is nifty gymnastics, it certainly isn't scruptural.
Nothing in scripture supports any such claim that the time from the dinosaurs to Adam was a "generation", or the time from Adam to Noah was a "Generation" or the time from Noah to Moses was a "generation" or the time from Moses to Christ was a "generation", or that even the time from Christ to now is a "generation".

These views are just plain false and completely unsupportable from the Bible.

The Bible is very, very precice as to what a "generation" actually is:

Matthew 1:17 So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, from David until the captivity in Babylon are fourteen generations, and from the captivity in Babylon until the Christ are fourteen generations.

In this genealogical table, we have data to estimate the length of a generation. It tells us that from the captivity in Babylon until Christ are fourteen generations. Now the date of the captivity, in the reign of Zedekiah, is said to be 586 BC. From 586 BC until the birth of Christ would be about 586 years which, divided by fourteen, makes the average length of a generation about 41 years.

Hebrews 3:8-10 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, In the day of trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, And saw My works forty years. 10 Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.'

Numbers 32:13 "So the Lord's anger was aroused against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation that had done evil in the sight of the LORD was gone.

Forty years is a significant number in the Bible, the children of Israel wondered in the wilderness for forty years before entering the promise land. The New Testament saints also were in a transition period for forty years before entering the New Jerusalem, which is above. David reigned for forty years. I believe that Christ's reign from Pentecost to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, was also a forty year reign which Revelation 20 refers to as the millennial reign of Christ.

Some have tried to twist the etymology of the word "generation" in Matthew 24:34 to make it mean "race,"and try to make Jesus say that all these things would happen before the "race" of Jews had passed away. By doing this, they think they can expand the time of the second coming by thousands of years. There is no biblical or linguistic justification for such a position. Generation does NOT mean race!

Get out your concordance and look up every New Testament occurrence of the word generation (in Greek, genea) and see if it ever means 'race, or 2000+ years in any other context. Here are all the references for the Gospels: Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51;18:8; 17:25; 21:32. Not one of these references is speaking of the entire Jewish race or thousands of years; all use the word in its normal sense of the sum total of those living at the same time. It always refers to contemporaries, every time, without fail.

YBIC,
P70

GW · Apr 9, 2002

Originally posted by Catchup
GW; I agree with this statement... but not with your understanding of what Jesus meant when using the term generation.

Okay. You agree with me that "THIS GENERATION" spoke of Christ's contemporaries in the references I gave? Even this one?

Matthew 23:36
"Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Please let me know to whom "THIS generation" is referring in Matthew 23:36.

A biblical generation is approximately 40 years, and Parousia 70 did a fine job of addressing your post, I think.

Thanks much, and in Christ's love AND complete victory.

GW

Manifestation1*AD70 · Apr 9, 2002

Originally posted by Catchup
Paul had no idea when the second coming of Jesus would occur.

Wow now that is a now statement

29"Immediately after the distress of those days

" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

This was language depicting the great tribulation in Israel. This kind of language was used by God before in picturing His awful judgment on nations and it's people. Take, for example, the case of the prophesied fall of Babylon to the Medes in 539BC., and how God used this celestial and universal language to describe the judgment that would come upon her:

"Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate; and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. "For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. "And I will punish the world for their evil..." (Isaiah 13:9-11).

This applied to Babylon, as mentioned in verse 1. "The fall of Babylon is represented by the stars and constellations of heaven withdrawing their light, and the sun and moon being darken xiii. 9,10.

Now note the prophecy of Ezekiel against Egypt:

"And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light. "All the bright lights of heaven will make dark over thee, and set darkness upon thy land, saith the Lord GOD" (Ezekiel 32:7-7). This applied to Egypt, as mentioned in vss. 2, 12-16.

And further note in Amos 8:9, "And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at moon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day." This had reference to the northern kingdom.

"And this very destruction of Jerusalem is represented by the Prophet Joel, in chapter 2:30-32. "And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke, Then sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord. And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the Lord has said, Among the remnant whom the Lord calls. This had reference to Jerusalem as mentioned by Joel vs.30-32 This general mode of describing these judgment leaves no room to doubt the propriety of its application in the present case.

This is not language that signifies an absolutely literal, materialistic, or natural fulfillment, as can be discovered by anyone who honestly studies these things. You remember that Peter used similar language on the day of Pentecost when he quoted from Joel 2: and said (this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel) "And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come" (Acts 2:17, 19-20).

Peter said those (were the days) These events at Pentecost happened in "the last days" of the Jewish age, and in connection with the anticipation of the "day of the Lord." This had nothing to do with any prediction of a futuristic (to us day of the Lord or Armageddon, but had everything in the world to do with that cataclysmic event of the coming of Christ in judgment upon Israel in those days. The "blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke" remained as proof that God had come on the scene, and Jesus was who he said he was (Matthew 26:62-64)

Willis Deal · Apr 10, 2002

Originally posted by GW
Willis,

Why have you not answered my questions about 2 Thess 2? I have asked you point blank for your interpretation on HOW 2 Thess 2:4-7 can remotely speak of something in our future. I truly wanted to hear your reasoning before proceeding, but you won't answer.

I answered that question already. I believe prophecy can have multiple fulfillments. Matthew demonstrated this principle time and again when he quoted FULFILLED prophecy from the OT and applied it to Jesus. Either Matthew was groping at straws by pulling OT prophecies out of context to try to prove Jesus was the messiah, or prophecy has another dimension. You even made a half hearted attempt to dispute my statement by suggesting that I was confusing OT shadows and types.

Originally posted by Mani
A similar passage is found in II Timothy 2:16-18.
What is so challenging about these verses? Please ask yourself the following question: If the day of the Lord is, as you and I have always been taught, a time ending, universe destroying event, how in the world could the Thessalonians ever have been convinced, as they obviously were, that the day of the Lord had ALREADY COME? All they had to do when any one would suggest such an idea was say "Look around! The earth is still here. Time marches on. Obviously, the day of the Lord has not come!" The same could be said of the passage in II Timothy. If the resurrection is when all the physical graves are opened, when Jesus bodily, visibly descends on a cloud with the audible sound of a trumpet: how could any one convince those at Ephesus that it had already happened?

They probably had a preterist teaching that it was all symbolic. :sigh:

That theory works as well as yours does. Imagine a simple christian believing in the bodily resurrection, hears that it is past, rushes to the tomb of their parents to discover the moldering corpses still there. That would certainly overthrow a person's faith.

Catchup · Apr 10, 2002

Please let me know to whom "THIS generation" is referring in Matthew 23:36.

GW....That is what I have been trying to do!

Read the thread on the roundtable of this forum called...Something of interest. It is a thread started by me. It should remove the veil from your eyes.

I am not a person that waste time chit-chatting. So I really could not understand why I had to keep posting to you. I know your a Christian and thus what difference does it make wether you believe Christ is going to come back again or not? This morning my answer came to me... You are not just sitting quietly, believing this lie. You are in an essence, preaching against the Bible. Satan has not been destroyed. I believe we can reach an agreement on that. All things have not been accomplished, as you preach. The book of Revelations has been totally ignored by you. But that is a mistake. For it come with a warning....

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen.

I am beginning to know you, and understand how you reason. You are going to ignore the book of Revelations and my request for you to read the thread "Something of interest".You are going to jump on the one word...soon.
"Yes, I am coming soon."

But the Bible is for all time. The Bible's words are for each reader. We must all believe that Jesus will return soon. What is time? Our life are described as a fleeting moment in eternity. So what is a day to a God? I can not locate that verse in the Bible. Maybe you can. It may help. I leave you now to decide if you will read the thread ...Something of Interest. If you decide to read it, please explore completely the web site shown, also read all the post on the thread. Some were from Atheist that were speechless. Or if you wish to stay with the covers over your head, then that is how I will leave you. I can do no more to help. Stay firm in you belief of Jesus. We are no longer living in the dawn. But I am not a prophet anymore than Paul was. I do not know if night is near and a new day is about to dawn. I can only warn that Jesus will return soon.

Luke 12:42The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45But suppose the servant says to himself, `My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

LOVE

davo · Apr 10, 2002

Originally posted by Willis Deal
I believe prophecy can have multiple fulfillments. Matthew demonstrated this principle time and again when he quoted FULFILLED prophecy from the OT and applied it to Jesus. Either Matthew was groping at straws by pulling OT prophecies out of context to try to prove...

Fine work chaps :clap:

So Willis what's the deal, how many times does prophecy get fulfilled before it's fulfilled?
What constitutes multiple fulfillments -how many times, what Scriptures show these many fulfillments?
And what mechanisms do you use in jumping off the merry-go-round to say "this is it"?

You mentioned "groping at straws" -I'm sure all the NT writers being led by the Spirit had a firm grasp on prophetic reality. They knew that all OT prophecy ultimately found its fulfillment in Christ and His saving work that started in His ministry and WAS consumated in His Advent in AD70.

davo

davo · Apr 10, 2002

Originally posted by Catchup
Satan has not been destroyed. I believe we can reach an agreement on that.

G'day Catchup,

I hope you're not one of those schizophrenic christians who praises God for the mighty victory you have in Christ over the enemy the devil, who then in the very next breath bemoans the devil beating up on you

Or was it the devil that made you do it!

Or perhaps you see Satan like God, omnipresent -wispering in ears all over the place at one time -impressive

I don't think so! Read your Bible and you'll see Jesus whooped him good and permanent.
So what about all the bad stuff in the world I hear you say -it's that dirty little three letter word ,SIN. The heart of man is desperately wicked and evil ABOVE ALL ELSE! if you choose to believe Jer 17:9.

The problem is SIN not Satan, it's DOUBT, not the Devil!

davo

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