Difficult people

altya · Oct 18, 2003

I few years ago I started home cell groups. I went for training in how to do it and thought that I was fully equipped for the task. I started off very well and the group grows very fast.

After a couple of months there was nothing left of the home cells. I always said to people if you want to know how satan is working put two Christians together and see how quickly they argue about unimportant stuff.

For months I was trying to figure out what went wrong and discover that I did not had enough knowledge to handle immature Christians and started to analyze behavior. Look at the thread ‘Christian Character’

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1029592&postcount=1

The Prophet

(I am referring to immature Christians who stand in the ministry and create chaos)

They come with a critical attitude - You people just aren’t doing it! You’re missing the Holy Spirit” or there sin here and we must repent or God will judge us.

Often express this criticism is Scripture quotes, mostly from the Old Testament prophets.

Often voice these criticisms in first person ‘prophecies supposed to be God’s own words. For example “thus saith the Lord. My Children! You have missed the mark’

The very first day I stepped into a Pentecostal Church a ‘prophet’ charged up to me with “You with your eyes, black with mascara, to lead men into adultery” This was one of the most horrible prophetic experiences I had and when a true prophet prophesy over me and anoint me as a prophet I nearly die.

Refuse to submit under leadership’s authority and doing their own great work for God.

Their basic need: Insecurity – needs recognition and a position of control in order to feel safe. Fear of rejection creates rejection.

altya · Oct 18, 2003

The teacher

(I am referring to teachers who learned something somewhere else and not directly from God as the mature Teacher in Christ}

Such a person attended someone’s seminar or was trained in someone’s school and now seeks to establish his/her authority in cell groups on the basis of this knowledge.

Takes a parental, instructive or corrective attitude towards others, always stating how the ministry could or should have been done on the basis of what was learned somewhere else. Implies that, ‘you people just don’t really have it together’

Although this kind of person doesn’t consciously intend to do so, he/she generally humiliates others and destroys trust so that others will not risk sharing significant issues.

Basic need: This person wants leadership and dominance without having paid the price in service and maturity. Pride is a problem here.

altya · Oct 18, 2003

The Parent

He/she likes to take a superior role, never really becoming personally vulnerable. Almost like the prophet.

Often delivers lengthy lectures on principles of faith or relationship. Such principles are usually well known by the group but his attitude is patronizing as if he where teaching something the group was not aware of.

His/her effect on the group is irritating and sometimes humiliating for the more vulnerable. People soon refuse to open up in his/her presence

Basic need: The “parent” needs to boost a sagging self-image by establishing him/herself as the knowledgeable on in control. Or pride may also be the root

jbarcher · Oct 18, 2003

Thank you for posting this. Good!

IKTCA · Oct 18, 2003

Alta,
All 3 apply to me. I will have to search my heart in those areas tonight. Had the grace of the Lord not held my group together, I could have been the scatterer.

But, thanks to Jesus, we are rapidly becoming one in him.

Thank you, Alta.
Rupert

altya · Oct 19, 2003

Hey Rupert, nice to see you again. How are you doing?

I will soon post how to correct such problems. I too had to make changes on myself first.

altya · Oct 19, 2003

The recruiter

The recruiter is usually known by his/her strong and /or dominant personality together with an accompanying lack of wisdom and coherent understanding of theology. He/she takes strong positions on a variety of issues. The problem is that most of these positions are internally inconsistent and may even contradict scripture.

He relies on his experience rather than on any teaching external to himself. He is his own authority and will not submit to any other authority. Some such persons often clam to be exclusively Holy Spirit taught.
The recruiter wants followers and will sow discontent among the weak in order to gain them. Followers validate his hunger for authority and control.

Basic need: The recruiter needs to control and hates authority figures. Under it all, as with so many, is it basic insecurity and a need to boost a sense of personal significance. Root judgments against authority may also be a serious issue

altya · Oct 19, 2003

The Drone

This person can never share without spending an hour telling the story in great detail, often several times.

The stories of some drones are peppered with past experiences and names of important people the drone is supposed to know.

Some drones make themselves unbearable by making complaint the dominant characteristic of their monologues.

In short, the drone monopolizes times fro little or no benefit to him/herself or the group.

Basic need: Insecurity issuing in a need to be noticed. Often this individual was emotionally invisible to parents grown up. Dominating group time create a sense of being seen, heart and significant.

altya · Oct 21, 2003

The Agenda-Maker

Generally impatient with the show pace op group dynamics. In a hurry to get on with the ‘real’ ministry.

Therefore tries to force the group into ministry or constructive confrontation prematurely.

May complain constantly that the group doesn’t end on time and may make a show of leaving early in a disruptive way when ‘the time’ to leave arrives

Basic need: Insecurity leads to a need to control the group and avoid real relationship. Lingering on any one portion of the normal agenda presents the possibility of exposure, vulnerability and loss of control.

He put me back together · Oct 22, 2003

You're hitting these on the head, altya. I think we all have our troubles with these especially in churches that believe in the Gifts of the Spirit. The Gifts very often (more often than they are actually present, I believe) provide excuses for people to insist that others agree with them, eliminating the need for reasoning and argument, both of which God is more than capable of. People expect us to go along with their discernments and prophecies and teachings as if God himself has spoken them directly to us, without trying the Spirits ourselves...if we provide an argument to refute them, suddenly we're the enemy, demon possessed, trouble makers, worldly, or some other well-poisoned imp--only for doing what the Bible INSTRUCTS us to do. In truth, it is they who are committing near blasphemy by counterfieting the gifts to promote their own agenda. This is not a safe thing to do by any means--God winks at ignorance for a time, but the devil charges into any door that is opened to him. Opening the doors to false prophecy is opening the doors to bondage for oneself and all those who listen to him.

I think any man of God must deal with these at times, and I think we've all become one of them to some extent as babies, and even after we should've known better. I won't claim to be an authority on the matter, but here are my two cents. You've probably done half of these already, though lol

1. I personally believe the first thing any of us should do in response to getting annoyed, much less when dealing with this kind of stuff, is fall on our face and pray to God, making sure that WE do not do the same thing, and we wouldn't do the same thing in the same given circumstance. Sometimes it is hard to tell what we are doing, as what seems like subtle things in our own members are often very large signs to those observers outside. But, well, when it comes to prophecy, ugh...you know what I mean.

2. Ok--you've done this a thousand times, but I have to include it to be procedurally sound. At EVERY instance we must pray to God to know the truth about the person, and to understand where they are coming from. It's sortof the same as the first, really--"Lord, would I do that if I were in their shoes? HAVE I done that when I WAS in their shoes before?" Once we have empathy and understand them, then we can pray for God to do something about what they are doing--many will say that praying to God to do something about it is the only thing we can do. In many cases, they're right. But at times, God will tell you to take action as well, so I suppose the whole thing could stop at "Pray and do what God tells you to do." But I guess the subject calls to ramble a little more--that would be a rather blunt answer and might not help you a great deal. I'll post this and then write some more as this is ceasing to be two pennies and is quickly becoming a dime or something.

He put me back together · Oct 22, 2003

oops...much less = much more ^_^

3. Next--here comes a cliche--pray for discernment. I know, I know, Paul said that none of the gifts are given to everyone, but he also said to desire and pray for the greater gifts, which sortof leads me to believe that it's good to pray for gifts, ya think? While you're in the process of praying for discernment, here are some things to chew on: Not all of these folks are this way for the same reason. Some, as you said, are just baby christians (sometimes baby christians who have been so for decades), some don't even know Christ, some have inner things going on, and some are actually the possessed

sent to disrupt God's work, impersonate his word for the sake of deception, and discredit the true gifts. This doesn't mean we should run around calling everyone that disrupts the place a demon--it simply wouldn't be true for everyone, and doing so would turn us into one of these guys. But, as you know, understanding this is crucial to what we're doing.

4. Now that we've chawed up the can of worms on demons, the next thing we need to look for are those that we do not see. The most dangerous among our enemies are those that appear to be our friends (I'm sure you've noticed that some of these folks you're talking about falsely appear to be friends to some people, themselves). Legion was not the one(s) that crucified Jesus and put the Apostles to death--those who were behind killing Jesus and the Apostles appeared to be friends to those that did the physical acts. As a matter of fact, a principal role in the crucifiction of Jesus was played by one of his closest friends. So while we're working on those who obviously are not working for us, I think we should keep an eye on those who appear to be working for us, even. We shouldn't be paranoid--we should simply be wise, and be ready for anything the Holy Spirit tells us.

5. Now, as for physical actions, some things one could do (God may say different sometimes, but hey): Learn from the past. If you're going to set up discussion meetings, lay down some rules first. (Yeah...like you haven't tried THAT before) Be firm when someone breaks them, and tell everyone involved from the getgo that you're going to be firm. As an orientation, get out your Writer's Handbook, if anyone will accept it, and read to everybody the list of logical fallacies, and explain why they're fallacies. Also make it clear in the beginning that difference in opinion does not equate lack of love, or irritation. In addition, differences in opinion can be expressed gentilly, without a voice of anger or resentment. Differences in opinion do not have to be personal. The Bible is full of argument. The Gospels are full of argument. Most Jesus' words in the Gospels were arguments. Anyone who says Jesus never argued doesn't know the meaning of the word. Arguments are not bad--although foolish arguments are, according to the epistiples. (Anyone wanna argue that argument is bad? yuck yuck)

I dunno if that's helpful, but at least I try :wave:

altya · Oct 26, 2003

1. I personally believe the first thing any of us should do in response to getting annoyed, much less when dealing with this kind of stuff, is fall on our face and pray to God, making sure that WE do not do the same thing, and we wouldn't do the same thing in the same given circumstance. Sometimes it is hard to tell what we are doing, as what seems like subtle things in our own members are often very large signs to those observers outside. But, well, when it comes to prophecy, ugh...you know what I mean.

You are right – I prefer to be hurt than to hurt other people. Much harm is done by the ‘prophetic word’ Not all words is from God. I know, I am a prophet myself and follow these rules ‘If you prophesy you must root out every little lie from your tongue – every deception, every half truth, and every white lie - the lot. They all have to go. Because if you do not do this the same spirit that inspires the little lie’s you permit will get into your mouth when you prophesy! YOU WILL BECOME A FALSE PROPHET’. Big chaos comes when babies in Christ start to prophesy. They run through churches and haven’t learned to submit under authority.

2. Ok--you've done this a thousand times, but I have to include it to be procedurally sound. At EVERY instance we must pray to God to know the truth about the person, and to understand where they are coming from. It's sortof the same as the first, really--"Lord, would I do that if I were in their shoes? HAVE I done that when I WAS in their shoes before?" Once we have empathy and understand them, then we can pray for God to do something about what they are doing--many will say that praying to God to do something about it is the only thing we can do. In many cases, they're right. But at times, God will tell you to take action as well, so I suppose the whole thing could stop at "Pray and do what God tells you to do." But I guess the subject calls to ramble a little more--that would be a rather blunt answer and might not help you a great deal. I'll post this and then write some more as this is ceasing to be two pennies and is quickly becoming a dime or something.

A few days ago God showed me a vision about what you are saying here. I always though prayer is the ‘alpha and omega’ of all situations. In this vision God showed me a case for which I am praying is like building a house. Say for instance I pray for my son for salvation. Prayer is the foundation of this case. Jesus is our foundation and therefore I will do intersession together with Jesus who is our Advocate. After prayer is done I will start working towards my son’s salvation. I will take action – this is building the walls. When my son accepted Christ as his savior the roof is on and it’s a complete victory. Thanks for your 2c

altya · Oct 26, 2003

3. Next--here comes a cliche--pray for discernment. I know, I know, Paul said that none of the gifts are given to everyone, but he also said to desire and pray for the greater gifts, which sortof leads me to believe that it's good to pray for gifts, ya think? While you're in the process of praying for discernment, here are some things to chew on: Not all of these folks are this way for the same reason. Some, as you said, are just baby christians (sometimes baby christians who have been so for decades), some don't even know Christ, some have inner things going on, and some are actually the possessed sent to disrupt God's work, impersonate his word for the sake of deception, and discredit the true gifts. This doesn't mean we should run around calling everyone that disrupts the place a demon--it simply wouldn't be true for everyone, and doing so would turn us into one of these guys. But, as you know, understanding this is crucial to what we're doing.

Yes there is different kind of ‘babies’ like you said, and we do need discernment to know. Some Christians are like retarded people, - for years babies, refusing to grow spiritually. Maybe there is not enough teaching or motivation (?). However every case has it own merits about why? I used to think that everything that goes wrong was demons and was quite a demon buster. But I have learned that there is another enemy – our flesh.

The flesh as enemyRomans 8:13 For IF YE LIVE AFTER THE FLESH, YE SHALL DIE: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

To overcome the flesh is to mortify, (degrade, crush and confound) it. It’s a painful process but to die to self is very profitable for our spirit. It’s the only way to die to self. We may often regret that your flesh is not a demon, if it were; we could simply cast it out. But we can’t neither cast out flesh nor bind it. It has to die. (Kill it) God won’t send an angel to kill your flesh, nor will the demons kill your flesh for you. Demons will stir your own flesh to help you to bring forth a work of the flesh; it’s up to you to kill your flesh.

4. Now that we've chawed up the can of worms on demons, the next thing we need to look for are those that we do not see. The most dangerous among our enemies are those that appear to be our friends (I'm sure you've noticed that some of these folks you're talking about falsely appear to be friends to some people, themselves). Legion was not the one(s) that crucified Jesus and put the Apostles to death--those who were behind killing Jesus and the Apostles appeared to be friends to those that did the physical acts. As a matter of fact, a principal role in the crucifiction of Jesus was played by one of his closest friends. So while we're working on those who obviously are not working for us, I think we should keep an eye on those who appear to be working for us, even. We shouldn't be paranoid--we should simply be wise, and be ready for anything the Holy Spirit tells us.

You are touching a very soft spot here. I had a ‘friend’ for 20 years and recently discover that this friend is not my friend but a severe enemy. I am still in shock and try to find my way out this mess. Do you perhaps have/know anything about the leviathan spirit? - Job 41:

5. Now, as for physical actions, some things one could do (God may say different sometimes, but hey): Learn from the past. If you're going to set up discussion meetings, lay down some rules first. (Yeah...like you haven't tried THAT before) Be firm when someone breaks them, and tell everyone involved from the getgo that you're going to be firm. As an orientation, get out your Writer's Handbook, if anyone will accept it, and read to everybody the list of logical fallacies, and explain why they're fallacies. Also make it clear in the beginning that difference in opinion does not equate lack of love, or irritation. In addition, differences in opinion can be expressed gentilly, without a voice of anger or resentment. Differences in opinion do not have to be personal. The Bible is full of argument. The Gospels are full of argument. Most Jesus' words in the Gospels were arguments. Anyone who says Jesus never argued doesn't know the meaning of the word. Arguments are not bad--although foolish arguments are, according to the epistiples. (Anyone wanna argue that argument is bad? yuck yuck)

Thanks – rules I believe is to protect or to control. Just make sure that for every rule the reason are protective of the group and not to control them.

Thanks so much for your input on this. I am blessed by it.

psycmajor · Oct 27, 2003

Interesting profiles.

He put me back together · Oct 27, 2003

altya said:
Thanks rules I believe is to protect or to control. Just make sure that for every rule the reason are protective of the group and not to control them.

Yes, you're right on that. This especially applies to church, although I think nearly every congregation will agree that some guidelines should be set (actually every congregation does, considering "Don't pop a cap in the guy sitting next to you." is a rule). In a small study group, however, more strict rules can be applied in addition to the naturally greater freedoms also therein, not to govern a person's opinion, but to govern a person's manner of expressing his opinion, particularly in debate. Perhaps logical fallacies shouldn't be outlawed, although they should be pointed out by the leader of the group (in a neutral manner), but being rude to the other study members, especially guests, should not be tolerated. (Although being "rude" is not always the problem concerning these guys that were mentioned) I also think that "God told me so" doesn't cut it when arguing a point objectively, and a moderator should ask for a better explanation.

As for the leviathon, well, I don't particularly think that Job was speaking of a deciever in that passage. I think he was making reference to how powerful the leviathon is. As in, the leviathon WON'T talk to you gently--he will not be tamed, and you're not powerful enough to tame him. Buuuuuuuuuut when it comes to the type of demonic entity that is sly and deceptive rather than ranting and raving, if you'd like to know an example of personal experience, there is one entity that has attached itself to my family (extended family that is--I'm not married), and has stayed with us for some time now. Strangely, he hasn't taken the office of a minister, as other examples very often do, but he is every bit as dangerous as those in the pulpits and in the church aisles are, or at least he was that dangerous, before the man he was originally in union with was destroyed.

altya · Oct 27, 2003

Pitfalls in offering correction

Approaching the problem as a ‘control’ issue, rather than as a pastoral issue. We are not in business to control people in order to create a comfortable environment. Our task is to shepherd souls for the sake of the souls we shepherd. Behind every problem behavior is an unmet need. Look for it and meet the need.

Applying valid scriptural principles in a legalistic or insensitive way. Each of us is at a different point in our spiritual and moral development. The more mature are able to shoulder more of what God has called us to do than are the less mature. For instance, don’t expect or demand a new believer with a background in abuse to exhibit the same sensitivity to others that long time believers should. Don’t expect such a person to display the same respect for your authority as you receive from healthy persons. Let people grow to own God’s word for themselves Never force. Strong interventions should be reserved for those times when such damage is being done to others that it becomes necessary to take protective action.

Taking things personally: First remember that a leader is very seldom seen as a real human being, so determine beforehand to forgive those who don’t see you as such. Second, clear thinking and accurate listening to the guidance of the Holy Spirit are impossible when a sense of personal offences takes over. Most problems, accusations and attacks aren’t aimed at you personally. They stem from other unresolved root problems for which you just happen to be the unfortunate and momentary object.

Being defensive concerning your own authority: Most ‘characters’ attack authority in some way. In such cases it is all too tempting to react with biblical quotes and threats concerning what happen to those who dishonor authority. Watch yourself! This is the first step on the road to domination and control. Unlike healthy persons, cult leaders deal with their personal insecurities buy controlling others and calling upon God to bless the effort. God Himself will establish your authority or you will have none at all. Your authority is never at issue. Leadership issues are never personal but have to do with the pastoral needs of those who are led.

altya · Oct 27, 2003

He put me back together said:
Buuuuuuuuuut when it comes to the type of demonic entity that is sly and deceptive rather than ranting and raving, if you'd like to know an example of personal experience, there is one entity that has attached itself to my family (extended family that is--I'm not married), and has stayed with us for some time now. Strangely, he hasn't taken the office of a minister, as other examples very often do, but he is every bit as dangerous as those in the pulpits and in the church aisles are, or at least he was that dangerous, before the man he was originally in union with was destroyed.

Thanks for sharing I needed to know if other Christians has experience this personally.

Thanks for your input on this thread it is appreciated

jane25 · Nov 6, 2003

I agree with you. I don't think Christians should argue over issues, they should sit down and study them together and let God show them in His Word what is the truth and what is not the truth. Satan sure knows where to hit at, doesn't he? :wave:

WOGminister · Nov 8, 2003

Oh I got a good one- I am the junior choir director, Sunday school teacher, and women's prison minister in my church. How do I tell everyone my husband ran off and still keep my virtuous reputation?

altya · Nov 10, 2003

WOGminister said:
Oh I got a good one- I am the junior choir director, Sunday school teacher, and women's prison minister in my church. How do I tell everyone my husband ran off and still keep my virtuous reputation?

Just remember it was not you who ran off. Your reputation is your personal character and no one elses behavior can count for your reputation.

Lift up your head high, even if it is difficult.

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