End Times Biblical Truths

The tribulation is satan wrath not God's
Tongues as not ceased because that which is perfect hasn't come
The lukewarm part I can agree on, but the rest is unfounded

Originally posted by RKF
The tribulation is satan wrath not God's

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oh, i always thought it's God's wrath.. all those opening of the seals and pouring of bowls in revelation.

deleted by me

Originally posted by Blessed-one


oh, i always thought it's God's wrath.. all those opening of the seals and pouring of bowls in revelation.

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Yeah it is. I'm not sure but I think it's both's wraths. Satans is against the believers will God's is against then unbelievers.

I believe believers will be (based on scriputre, can't rightly find it right now) not effected by the wrath of God during the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation.

It's that scripture thay says we will be delivered out of the wrath. Either that means there's going to be a rapture or we just won't be effected... I'm still unsure, and I probably will be ti'll I die or it happens.

I'll begin with the page where you defend the KJV against the NIV. You make the statement:

'...all versions since the KJV are also found to have these missing words (highlighted in red) which the list below demonstrates'



That statement is not true. I began with the first verse you quoted in matthew and continued to sample random verses you listed and found that the NKJV, Websters, YLT, MKJV, and LITV all contained modern translations of those parts of the passages you claim to be omitted.

Now about tongues and prophecy ceasing... I disagree. I believe that which is perfect is the living word of God, rather than the written word of God, ie Jesus Christ when he returns the second time. Otherwise, when I have these dreams that later come true it would simply be a coincidence.

satan's wrath starts when he thrown out of heaven for the final time,which starts the great tribulation, Look in Rev. the devil then makes war with the saints,
God's wrath starts on the Lord's day, That's when he comes and destroys the one world government and the false prophet and the beast, and in turn sets up his earthy kingdom.

...the Tribulation period is that it is most definitely the period of the outpouring of the wrath of God...

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Note that nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials (Revelation 15:1).

The vials contain God's wrath, yet not one of them is directed at Christians. I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).

The bible makes it clear that there will be the Rapture immediately before the Tribulation

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Note that in no scripture are we promised a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus said he would come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul said Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation

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In Revelation 3:10, Jesus was addressing only the church at Philadelphia, not the entire church. This is why we find Christians referred to throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:3, 7:14, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:1-4, 14:12-13, 15:2, 20:4). There can be no Christians outside of the church, for "there is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith" (Ephesians 4:4-5), which body is the church: "the church, which is his body" (Ephesians 1:22-23).

How do we know if we're Philadelphians? Would Laodiceans think they were Laodiceans or Philadelphians?

I don't believe Revelation 3:10 even requires a pre-trib rapture, because some of us in the church with "little strength" (Revelation 3:8) could be kept from temptation and trial (Revelation 3:10) by dying before the tribulation begins (compare Isaiah 57:1), others by fleeing to a place prepared in the wilderness (Revelation 12:6), where we will be protected from harm (Revelation 12:14-16). There must be a remnant of us who are still "alive and remain" at the end of the tribulation when Jesus comes to gather us together (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Mark 13:26-27).

But some of us in the church will be tried in tribulation unto death (Revelation 2:10-11). We will suffer and die in the war, famine, natural disaster, and persecution of the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4), just as faithful Christians have been allowed to suffer and die in these things throughout history (Acts 14:22).

During the Tribulation however, many will be saved

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While the Bible shows Christians in the tribulation (Revelation 6:11, 7:3, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 20:4), note that it doesn't expressly show anyone repenting during the tribulation. In fact, it repeatedly says the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and Paul says that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). It's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation were saved before the tribulation began, for nowhere does Jesus promise us a rapture before the tribulation.

Lest any unbelievers get complacent and think "Oh, when I see all that Antichrist stuff then I'll repent and believe," I think we should warn them: "Then it may be too late; God is going to send a strong delusion (2 Thessalonians 2:11) on all those who rejected the gospel. Today is the day of salvation. You may not get another chance to believe."

These who get saved after the Rapture and during the Tribulation unfortunately have to be faithful to the Lord unto death

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Some believe Revelation 14:13 means that Christians in the tribulation will be saved only by dying. But is this what the verse itself says? If they are saved ("in the Lord") before they die, then they don't HAVE to die in order to be saved. Do some believe that people who die unsaved can be saved after death? Do they apply a saved-only-by-dying standard to those in Revelation 2:10 also? If not, why not?

Isn't Revelation 14:13 simply saying that those who die in the Lord will be blessed even though physically dead because then they can rest from their earthly labours for the Lord? As Paul said: "To live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour" (Philippians 1:21-22).

Tongues

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I don't believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased because today millions of Christians can speak in tongues and operate in the other gifts (1 Corinthians 12). I believe there's a great danger in ascribing any work of the Holy Spirit to Satan (Mark 3:22-30). I believe Christians will continue to use these gifts until Jesus "is come" and we see him "face to face" (1 Corinthians 13:8-12, compare 1 John 3:2).


No self promotion please, put this in your sig if you want to

Originally posted by postrib


Note that in no scripture are we promised a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus said he would come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul said Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

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Just wanted to add that Peter says (2 Peter 3:10) that when Jesus Comes "as a theif" (referencing the same coming to gather the saints as Paul did in 2 Thess 2) the "heavens and earth pass away" without any 1000 year reign.

Peter says (2 Peter 3:10) that when Jesus Comes "as a theif" (referencing the same coming to gather the saints as Paul did in 2 Thess 2) the "heavens and earth pass away" without any 1000 year reign

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Note that Peter refers to the "day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" as the day the heavens and earth will vanish (2 Peter 3:7-10), just as Revelation 20:11-21:1 says will happen after the millenium at the great white throne judgment of all unbelievers. So he is not referring to only the 2nd coming itself, which is the day of the Lord we are told to wait for (1 Corinthians 1:7-8), but to what will happen at the end of the "thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8).

We know that Peter wasn’t referring to only the 2nd coming itself because only the current world system will end at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 7:31). The earth itself won’t be destroyed, but instead renewed into Edenic perfection during the millenium (Matthew 19:28; Isaiah 51:3, 30:23-25).

The end of the world will bring the restoration of the earth, for Christ will come to "destroy those who destroy the earth" (Revelation 11:18), and to bring us back into right relation with it (Micah 4:4, Isaiah 32:14-20).

Originally posted by postrib

Note that Peter refers to the "day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" as the day the heavens and earth will vanish (2 Peter 3:7-10), just as Revelation 20:11-21:1 says will happen after the millenium at the great white throne judgment of all unbelievers. So he is not referring to only the 2nd coming itself, which is the day of the Lord we are told to wait for (1 Corinthians 1:7-8), but to what will happen at the end of the "thousand years as one day" (2 Peter 3:8).

We know that Peter wasn’t referring to only the 2nd coming itself because only the current world system will end at the 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 7:31). The earth itself won’t be destroyed, but instead renewed into Edenic perfection during the millenium (Matthew 19:28; Isaiah 51:3, 30:23-25).

The end of the world will bring the restoration of the earth, for Christ will come to "destroy those who destroy the earth" (Revelation 11:18), and to bring us back into right relation with it (Micah 4:4, Isaiah 32:14-20).


http://www.geocities.com/postrib

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This is a new view to me!
Let me see if I have it right...

Jesus returns, sets up the millennial kingdom and over that 1000 years, this present earth is restored to an edenic paradise, then after the 1000 years expire, the present but refurbished, edenistic "heavens and earth" are destroyed by fire and replaced by a New heavens and earth?



Like I said, This is a new one on me!

...Let me see if I have it right...

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Yes, I believe this earth will not be replaced by the new earth until after the millenium.

Originally posted by postrib

Yes, I believe this earth will not be replaced by the new earth until after the millenium.

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Ok, So I did have it right.
One question, if the present earth is going to be restored to it's original, edenic state, why, in your understanding, does it need to then be destroyed by fire?

Thanks

LukeWarm said:

Thanks for the responses. I'll answer some points raised. The Tribulation includes both the wrath of God and the wrath of Satan. But the book of Revelation mentions 'wrath of God' ten times, whereas it mentions 'wrath of Satan' but once (12:12). Therefore the emphasis on the Tribulation period is that it is most definitely the period of the outpouring of the wrath of God.
The bible makes it clear that there will be the Rapture immediately before the Tribulation. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. This means the church is taken out of the earth and all that will remain is unbelievers who are unsaved. During the Tribulation however, many will be saved and this is to whom the bible refers when it says: Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. These who get saved after the Rapture and during the Tribulation unfortunately have to be faithful to the Lord unto death.
Where I say on the 'which version?' page I say: 'The NIV is very popular, but all versions since the KJV are also found to have these missing words (highlighted in red) which the list below demonstrates'. Sorry that this can sound misleading, (I aim to amend it now), but I mean that other versions also have similar words missing but not all in exactly in the same place or all have as many missing words. Where the NIV misses words out is a likely place where other versions also miss out the same things. The actual count for the NIV's missing words in the New Testament is 2,886 but the NKJV may have 2,000 for e.g. I also add to say, that not only do modern versions have missing words, they also have many word changes which actually alter the original meaning of the text. Neither is this good practice.
Tongues and Prophecies.. The word 'perfect' referring to Christ could be possible until we see the way James 1:25 describes the word of God as being 'the perfect law of liberty' and also as 'a glass' (or mirror), just as 1 Cor 13:12 does: 'for now we see through a glass'. These two things make it conclusive that the 'glass' and 'perfect' are the written word of God.

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There is no rapture.People do not get raptured up.Read Mathew,24 I think from memory.Immediately AFTER , not JUST after ,or just before or ,a long time before BUT IMMEDIATELY AFTER!!!!
Tribulation HAS begun.it began in december 09.The seals have been opened.I can tell you how I know but you will not believe me so why bother. But I can tell you they have been opened.A friend handed me a bible one night and we were smiling and joking and then i read from it and he said something and I immediately got a stomach ache very very bad and thought I would die.
that is how i KNOW.They have been opened.

Geez way to bump an 8 year old thread

All the elements of the New Jerusalem need to be refined because everything that is made is made and nothing more needs to be made, therefore the elements that it will take to make the New Jerusalem will need to be without blemish.
I believe that there is enough gold, precious and semi precious stones in this solar system to make a 1,500 cubic mile city out of refined elements

The best way to refine any element is to fire it up and burn the dross, therefore the burning of the planet and solar system achieves two fold, refining the elements for the New City and having a completly clean slate with no contaminents in it whatsoever...do you know how much space junk there is in the heavens...a lot, let alone the landfills with all our trash accumulated from the past 6,000 years that is here too...

That is why the Master Builder will kiln this solar system to clean it up

Love,
Brother Jerry

/

vinsight4u said:

What if the seals are about the land of Shinar?

as in Iraq

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That would be quite a feat due to the fact that they are not mentioned in the scripture concerning the seals

LukeWarm said:

The actual count for the NIV's missing words in the New Testament is 2,886 but the NKJV may have 2,000 for e.g.

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The NKJV is based on the same texts as the KJV. Any words that are "left out" of the NKJV are due to the translator's conclusions that they were not in the original text, not on the use of a different text.

I also add to say, that not only do modern versions have missing words, they also have many word changes which actually alter the original meaning of the text. Neither is this good practice.

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Actually, if you check it out you will find that this was systematically done in the KJV, in some cases by order of king James himself. King James ordered that ecclesiastical words be used instead of normal English words that reflected the true meaning of the Greek. So church was used instead of assembly, pastors instead of shepherds, elders instead of overseers, and deacons instead of servants. And in one place passover was changed to Easter. Again, (And in this case I do not remember if it was due to a royal order or just the agreement among the translators) the translators made a standard practice of using different English words when the Greek used the same word several times in a single passage. Their stated reason for this was to improve the readability of the text.

In every case where any of these were done, the KJV translators intentionally changed the true meaning of the Greek texts they were working with. I have personally cataloged a large number of passages in the KJV that cannot be defended on the basis of ANY ancient text. But this discussion belongs in the Christian Scriptures forum, where I posted this catalog some time ago.