islam

My friend, you are entitled to your views, and so is everybody else.

Your evidence does not change anything, Jesus is the Only Way to God, you may see differently and that is up to you.

Being neither Muslim or Christian, I think I can objectively evaluate the analysis presented on both sides in this thread. Monkeybar has the upperhand so far, but that may only be because he/she has presented the last solid point which has not yet been responded to.

But, overall, it is fascinating. It really goes to show how different people can view the same religious texts so differently and sincerely.

I have to agree from what I can see on this thread, Monkeybar has studied at least something about Chrisitanity. He's looked in books he's quoted the bible and it seems as though no one has really reffered to a quote from a scholar concerning Islam. I think that is also a reason why he's leading this debate and I'm surprised because of the number of people on this thread and it's him answering everyone else's questions and I applaud him for it. I think it was well done you wrote clearly and with strong points. I know this isn't an Islamic website but I think it does well to know of religions other than your own. Knowledge does give you power and I think this was illustrated here. I am a muslim but this post is not about the religions it's about how to structure an argument. I think we can learn something that to answer in a debate you do need to know the other side's viewpoints. You can't rely on My way is right and your all wrong. Structured viewpoints, a good case a well written turn of phrase. That is what makes a debate. So congratulations I look forward to reading more of your posts in the future.

What do you think it's about?

A different way to God, so what they think. Unfortunately there is only One way, Jesus.

To put it simply and lightly.

Do you accept that the prophet Muhummed (SAW) existed and was prophesised in your books.

I know Mohammed existed, but he WAS not prophesied in the Bible as the continuation of the faith.

God Bless

cut

God Bless you man.

Ishmael and Issac were both sons of Abraham.
Islam and Judeasm come from this common root.
Christianity is the fulfillment of Judeasm.(in our belief)

We all worshhip the same God, in God the Father. Our understandings of this God differ however.

WRONG, they are not the same God.

Let me explain it.....

Four thousand years ago, a man by the name of Terah lived in the region of Ur of the Chaldees (current day Southern Iraq). Like others of his day, he was a polytheist, believing in many gods and worshiping idols. Ur was a flourishing center of the moon-god Sin. It’s quite likely that Terah, who was a worshiper of idols (Josh. 24:2), was a worshiper of the moon-god.

His son Abram was called by God to leave the land of the moon-worship and many gods and come to a new land to worship the one true God.

"The Lord said to Abram, ‘Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all the peoples on earth will be blessed through you’" (Gen. 12:1-3).

The promise is more specific in Genesis 15. "On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram and said, ‘To your descendants I will give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates- the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girga*****s and Jebusites" (Gen. 15:18).

Regarding the exact boundaries of this land, there are different opinions. Some believe the covenant encompasses thousands of miles of oil rich territory in between the Nile River in Egypt and eastward into Iraq and the Persian Gulf. Others, however, feel the covenant includes what is modern day Israel, plus some.

Everyone, however, would agree on this: According to the Bible, the Jews were given land by covenant. They believe it is their land. Non-Jewish inhabitants of the region disagree. They disagreed with Abraham then and they disagree with Israel today. Non-Jews believe they have earned the land by conquest.

If the land dispute weren’t enough, the anger is also fueled by a four-thousand-year-old family feud. Abraham was promised not only land, he was promised descendants who would inherit the land. There was only one problem: Abraham and his wife Sarah were getting old. They believed God, they waited on God, but no baby. The two grow impatient.

They buy a bassinet. They decorate the tent. They purchase a copy of the thousand best Hebrew names, but still no baby. Finally, Sarah grows impatient. After all, Abraham was a hundred and she was ninety so she took matters in their own hands. Sarah had a servant by the name of Hagar. Sarah brings her to Abraham, Hagar gives the old fellow a wink, and next thing you know Ishmael is born.

Ishmael may have been Sarah’s solution, but he wasn’t God’s solution. He was not the one through whom God would bless the nations. "I will surely bless him [Ishmael]…but my covenant I will establish with Isaac." (Gen. 17:20,21)

Isaac was the legitimate son of Abraham. It was through him that the lineage of the Jews would run. So not only do you have a territorial conflict, you have the beginnings of a family feud: the children of Isaac against the children of Ishmael. About Ishmael these words were spoken, "He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone’s hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers" (Gen. 16:12). It was through him that the lineage of the Arab peoples would run.

Through Isaac would come the greatest Jew: Jesus. Through Ishmael would come the founder of Islam.

MOHAMMED
[font=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva]
He was born in Mecca on the Arabian Peninsula in 570 A.D. According to legend, a host of angels joyously attended his birth. As soon as he was born he fell to the ground, took a handful of dust and declared, "God is great." He was allegedly born clean, circumcised, and his navel cord already cut. A quick summary of his life might include these points.[/font]

1. He married Khadija, a wealthy widow fifteen years his senior.
2. Around the age of forty, he began experiencing visions from Gabriel in the cave of Hirah. These visions would later be codified into the Qur’an: "a perfect book from God."
3. He preached monotheism (belief in one god) in Mecca, resulting in notoriety and persecution.
4. He escaped to Medina in 622 A.D. (This marks the beginning of the Islamic calendar.) There he established the community of Islam and built the first mosque.
5. From Medina he set out to conquer the Arabian Peninsula. In doing so he and his followers killed thousands and collected their goods and concubines. As one historian pens: "This period was marked by many assassinations instigated or sanctioned by [Mohammed] and by wholesale slaughter of those opposed to him or whose wealth he coveted for himself, including that of the Jews. . . .in retaliation for the treachery [of the Jews] he had the men of a whole tribe, 800 in number, slaughtered in cold blood and their women and children sold into slavery."
6. He returned to Mecca in 630 A.D., making it the center of Worship.
7. Died in 632 A.D., leaving no official successor.

He did leave a religion, however; a religion that would unite the Arab world. The religion is called: Islam.

The word "Islam" means "submission."
The word "Muslim" means "one who has submitted."
It is a mobile, militant, and missionary religion.

True

No, it is said, that Mohammed went into the desert were the word of God was given to him to write the KORAN by the Arch Angel Gabriel, however, I suggest that it was truthfully LUCIFIER who spoke to MOHAMMMED.

It is stated in the bible that the nation of Ishmael would always be against the Jews.


Islam is built on five pillars:

Shahadah: "There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet"
Salah: Turning to Mecca to pray 5 times a day
Sawm: Fasting during daylight hours through the month of Ramadan (including no water).
Zakat: Setting aside 2.5% of income to benefit the Muslim community
Hajj: A once-in-a-lifetime pilgrimage to Mecca

There is much that is right about Islam. For example, it is a monotheistic religion. It believes in a creator. It is a civilization that has produced great advances in science, medicine, and math. Islam is against homosexuality and abortion. The Qur’an, like the Bible, is colorblind. } It predicts an end to history.

But to understand the faith through the lens of Scripture we look, not just at what is taught, but what is missing. What is missing from Islam?

The morality of Mohammed.

When it came to character and human decency, the founder of Islam floundered. The reader is stunned at the man’s violent character. Mohammed believed in holy wars. By divine revelation he commands his followers: ". . .fight in the cause of God. . ." (2:244). He adds, ". . .fight and slay The Pagans wherever ye find them" (9:5). And, "…when ye meet The Unbelievers (in fight) Smite at their necks." (47:4)

Mohammed sanctioned and led raids against Meccan caravans. He ordered the assassination of his critics. And, most significantly, he applauded those who died in the name of Allah.

We earlier stated that, in the Islamic faith, salvation is guaranteed to no one. There is one exception. Paradise is promised for those who fight for God. "Those who have left their homes…Or fought or been slain…Verily I will blot out From them their iniquities, And admit them into Gardens With rivers flowing beneath." (3:195)

Martyrs are promised an eternal life in the presence of virgins.

"They will recline on Carpets, ...In them will be (Maidens), Chaste, restraining their glances,Whom no man Before them has touched..." (55:56)

Mohammed promoted polygamy; he himself had fifteen wives. He decried the status of women. As we read in the Qur’an, men can even beat their wives. "Men are in charge of women because Allah hath made the one to excel the other…As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them." (4:34)

So much more could be said, but suffice it to say, missing from Islam is morality in Mohammed. And, equally important, missing from Islam is:

Victory over the grave.

Mohammed is dead. Muslims follow a dead man. At the core of Christianity is the resurrection of Christ. The empty tomb validates the claims of Christ and inspires his followers. Over five hundred people witnessed Christ in his resurrected form. (I Cor. 15:6) The resurrected Mohammed has yet to be seen.

But, the question lingers, why are they mad at us? Let’s tally this up:

First, we have four thousand years of animosity between the Arab and the Jew. They have never not been enemies. Four thousand years of bitter dispute and hatred.

Second, we have a cross-less and Christ-less religion. These people have never known a God of love. They have never known the sweetness of salvation. The only hope of salvation is good works. The only guarantee of salvation is death in a holy war.

Third, we have the establishment of the state of Israel. The Jews claim that the land is theirs by covenant. The Muslims claim it is theirs by conquest.

And finally, we have oil! Since 1970, the mid-east has become a cash cow. Millions and millions of dollars worth of petroleum. Muslims have become millionaires- one of whom had fifty-three children- each of whom inherited $300 million a piece. And one of those heirs is a Muslim fundamentalist by the name of Osama bin Laden. Anger can be fueled with money.

But still, what about us? Why are fundamentalist Muslims mad at America? Simple. We are friends with Israel. And, as far as I’m concerned, that’s where I want to be. Ever in the back of our minds is this promise from God: "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all the peoples on earth will be blessed through you" (Gen. 12:1-3).

So, then, what should Christians do? We should look to Jesus. We’ve considered Abraham and Mohammed. Now let’s turn our attention to Jesus Christ.

So you believe that Jesus is the ONLY way to God, if so Amen

Thanks for the info. I guess I meant to say that we are all of the same origin. I still believe that we worship the same God but with different understandings. What one religion believes about God does not change who that God is. Our views of this God are vastly different but IMO it is the same God.

BTW- I think that the current conflicts in the world are a result of the original conflict between Issac and Ishmael. It seems the whole of history is turning back onto itself.

What do you think about the current world situation with a biblical world view.

Examples-
Arab against Jew
Arab against Christian
Garden of Eden in Iraq
Babaylon in Iraq
Israel surrounded by enemies
etc, etc, etc.

I'm having trouble finding the text in my bible, but I know its here, it is stated that these two nations born to Ishmael and Issac will always be at war with each other.

originally posted by monkeybar

As muslims we love and respect Isa (AS) (Jesus).
We believe in the miraculous birth of Jesus.
That jesus is the messiah (from the arabic and hebrew word masaha means to rub, to massage, to annoint. "the one who is anointed" kings and priest were anounted in consecration to thier offices. Messiah translated Christ does not mean God. Even the heathen Cyrus is called "Christ in the Bible, (Isaiah 45:1)
we also believe he gave life to the dead by God's permission, and that he healed those born blind and the lepers by God's permission.

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True but yet false. True: christ means annointed. False: the annointed one is referenced to prophesy and can not be just anyone. It it the Christ (capitalized) who is referenced, and it is Jesus, the one to come.

It was also common for people to be called lord. Again, it is one particualar Lord that is being talked about. We use God to mean different, according to whom we worship. What is so special about it, unless we are pointing to a specific one? I could call myself Lord and make claims. It is the proof that I can fulfill the prophesy and maintain it that will judge me as credible or a phoney.

Point: This word has specifc reference and for a specific time.

It is you who have changed his message Jesus.
When jesus claimed to be the messaih of the jews they asked as to where was Elias. You have written in your bible HERE HE CONTRADICTS JESUS. god forbid one of the two is not speaking the truth. Jesus said john the baptist was the greatest of the israelite prophets:

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Elias is a Christ type. He and John were precursors to Christ. Both were used by God to show the existance of the True God, for there were many unbelievers. They were the chosen ones to prepare the Jews for the Messiah, Jesus Christ. God gave Elias the healing power as Christ, Jesus would have.

Malach 4:5. Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

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Malachi is the last book of the OT and tells of what is to come in the next book, Matthew, which is the 1st book of NT. Malachi means: my messenger. This verse is a forewarning to the coming of John, a type of Elias. The original Elias had already passed. Read 1 Kings 17:. The dreadful day of the Lord is the cruxifixion of Jesus.

Matthew 17:11-13 refers to John, who simply took on Elias' role. His mission was to prepare the the world for Jesus' second coming, the Resurrection. He preached repentence of their sins and to turn to God: specifically, the to the Jews. This is preparation for the New Law as prophesied.

In the book of John, People ask Jesus, "are you Elias?", because they had limited knowledge of prophesy and understanding of what the messiah was. Some thought that the Messiah would be an earthly type such as a newer King David type.

Read Mark 9:8-13 and you will see that Jesus' deciples did not understand what the resurrection (rising of the dead) meant (verse 9-10). In verse 12, it points to the role of John the Baptist after the ressurection (2nd comming of Christ). He is to restore all things: meaning preach the Gospel of repentance of sin and the new life through the Savior, Jesus.

"AND THIS IS THE RECORD OF JOHN" (THE BABTIST) "WHEN THE JEWS SENT PRIESTS AND LEVITES FROM JERUSALEM TO ASK HIM WHO ART THOU? AND HE CONFESSED AND DENIED NOT; BUT CONFESSED, I AM NOT THE CHRIST" ( natural as the jews were expecting a single messiah not two) "THEN ASKED HIM WHAT THEN? ART THOU ELIAS? AND HE SAITH, I AM NOT" (HOLY BIBLE) John 1:21

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True, Christ was not Elias. John was the type spoken of. Now you see that there is only one Elias mentioned.

"VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU AMONG THEM THAT ARE BORN OF WOMEN THERE HAS NOT RISEN A GREATER THAN JOHN THE BAPTIST" (HOLY BAPTIST) Matthew 11:11

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The greatness of John the Baptist (Elias in type) lies in his mission to spread the Gospel after Christ's resurrection. Thus, pointing to the true God that brought His prophesy to completion through Jesus, our Saviour. He proved the true God through prophesy, just as the 1st Elias did.

So, John was not Elias, but a type of Elias. Elias was not even here, on earth at that time. Jesus was not Elias. He was the a healer like Elias, but that is where the similarities start to greatly differ. He came to save the world (mankind) from it's sins. Healing was just one of His many Godly, attributes.

My explanations are reflective of the Biblical account. There is no changes or contradictions. The key to understanding anything is reading in proper context, which far too many Muslims are not eager to do when approaching Bible - God's 1st and last written Words to humanity.