Hank Hanegraaff works - Christanity in Crisis

Welcome, blackhaw6, to the Christian forums . i hope you like it here and am looking forward to reading your posts.
God guaranteed an inheritance and the prosperity teachers have added to it money. I guess you can draw a lot more people with the promise of money and power.
God Bless you.

Originally posted by blackhaw6
solo66 man,

"They pretty much all teach the same heresy. They are leading the flock into the gates of hell with money and power. Sad but true."

Yes! Kenneth Copeland, Robert Tilden, Fred price and Creflo Dollar are all false prophets. By the way is Creflo Dollar his real name. I remember when I first saw him on tv. i laughed because I thought it was a joke. Then I cried because I found out it wasn't. But Dollar? Anyways they just can't seem to grasp that God never guaranteed wealth in this world. He guaranteed riches and blessings in the next. Also that the truly desirable blessings are not riches and fame but God Himself.

Blackhaw6

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??? is there any man who has *never* misrepresented our Lord to the masses... tv evangelism gives some an opportunity to really misrepresent to a large number... but don't our local pastors mis-step in their leadership too?... or are only tv guys bad?

local pastors is a GREAT issue...so many of them stray from God's Word, you should start another thread on this issue...however, i think this thread is more dedicated to hanegraff and to the cult that he speaks out against...

Anyways they just can't seem to grasp that God never guaranteed wealth in this world.

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malachi 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.

deut 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.

2 cor 9:6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:


3 john 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.


matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

since i have thighed my income has doubled, fear not good people i am not greedy, i have left houses to preach, and reached deaply into my pockets to win souls, proof, is on my site sidewalk Bible school, i built that truck, my hands my money, which God abundantly supplied, ain't my first truck neither, me and the Lord talking right now about another one too. you know what was really disapointing about that truck though, i offered many diffrent churches (diff denominations) the free use of the truck, for there hoods, all they had to do was raise a crew from there assembly, if necessary i would train them, 1 truck could have done 3 services a weekend on the streets, no body wanted it. we did our site though over 400 won that summer, parents even stopped the service to get saved,
one of my pastors even commented i was the most generous man he had met, he wasn't talking about internal stuff, i may very well have been the poorest person in the assembly.
not boasting just tired of people accusing me about being greedy, the majority of those doing the accusing don't even go to church, if you read there posts. i find with holding the tighs to be extreme greed, talk about the love of money, love it so much they don't want to see the gospel go forth. not pointing fingers at this board, just some of them that have booted me off, cause i am a heretic.
Guess what the Holy Spirit told me today, be glad the church and state are seperated within this country, otherwise they would have already set you ablaze thinking they were searving. need a match brothers?? I reminded the Holy Spirit they are already killing us with their words and their pens, but i understand God has a real big pen, with a whole bunch of Books.

I guess you can draw a lot more people with the promise of money and power.

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1 cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1 cor 2:1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
what shall it be psychology or the Holy Spirit????

Norman, thank you for presenting your case with the scripture of the bible... it fares well for you. The Lord is a great lover of diversity, and i believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that he has called us to be cheerful givers as your post states...

"not boasting just tired of people accusing me about being greedy," when you've done all to stand norman, stand therefore! don't spend to much time concerning yourself with the opinions of others... your heart and goal should be the Lord, not just the local faithful!
i need no match here norman, and i encourage you to continue to state your perspective with scripture and avoid the temptation to get defensive!!!
keep posting.

someone had asked me for proof again??
let me quote "christanity in crisis" by hank hendegraph pp138, here hh is trying to say kenneth copeland is denying that Jesus was God (his divinity) begin quote from cic book..
what [why] does God have to pay the price for this thing? (sin) He has to have a man that is like that first one. it's got to be a man. He's got to be all man. He cannot be a God and come storming in here with attributes and dignities that are not common to man. He can't do that. it's not legal ... end quote from cic book by hh, (sin) bracket added by me.
now from this statment it would apear kenneth copeland did say Jesus was not God or divine.
what was the rest of kenneth copelands statment which hank hendragaph left out, here it is....begin quote There had to be a man, but it also had to be a man as pure as the first one [adam], and there wasn't anybody left like that but God. Now somehow or another there's got to be an incarnation, theres got to be a man filled with God-their's got to be a God-man come unto the earth...end quote from quenching the Spirit pp 272
kenneth copeland was stating that Jesus was fully man and fully God in the entire context of his statment, to cut it in half and try and say that kenneth Copeland was denying that Jesus was God, is down right terrible, and unfortunatly many people believe it to be gospel and will turn around and repeat these statments as gospel, without checking for themselves the entire context of what was said.
here is a letter from kc ministry trying to clear up some things.
http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/copeland_response.htm
here is a page from my brother in Christ, Troy with some intresting links to sites defending the faith movment from the hersey hunters, a ton of reading. http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/links.html
here is a link to a new faith based forum, http://www.wordandfaith.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl i am pistis there. i would strongly recomend knowing your word inside out when you attack the brothers there.

when you've done all to stand norman, stand therefore! don't spend to much time concerning yourself with the opinions of others... your heart and goal should be the Lord, not just the local faithful!

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understood and received thank you.

these are parrallell accounts of the same event, read them put them together to see what the Lord said, and discern. please
matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe (DO) all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. (DO added by me or "not to loose" could be more aproprate)

mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Originally posted by norman

kenneth copeland was stating that Jesus was fully man and fully God in the entire context of his statment, to cut it in half and try and say that kenneth Copeland was denying that Jesus was God, is down right terrible, and unfortunatly many people believe it to be gospel and will turn around and repeat these statments as gospel, without checking for themselves the entire context of what was said.

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I would have to look into the matter better but I find it hard to believe that Hank would knowingly misquote Copeland in a book read by the mases. Even without this argument Kenneth Copeland has proven himself a false teacher plain and simple so why defend him in this context?

here is a letter from kc ministry trying to clear up some things.
http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/copeland_response.htm
here is a page from my brother in Christ, Troy with some intresting links to sites defending the faith movment from the hersey hunters, a ton of reading. http://www.victoryword.100megspop2.com/links.html
here is a link to a new faith based forum, http://www.wordandfaith.com/cgi-bin/YaBB/YaBB.pl i am pistis there. i would strongly recomend knowing your word inside out when you attack the brothers there.
understood and received thank you.

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Defending the Faith movement from heresy hunters? How come when cults teach heresies the people in this 'Faith Movement' say they are of the devil, but when these word of faith teachers teach the same occultic teachings re-packaged for Christian consumption they are being "heresy hunted?" Of course the word of faith people would say I am, "touching God's annointed" when I speak out against these false teachers. That just shows how little these people know about scripture.

God Bless

Now let us look at and understand these verses, actually i love them, most hersey hunters throw them at me but i want to show you what it really means. he that hath an ear listen.
matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
these verse give us a picture of what good fruit is vs 19, good fruit is doing the will of God vs 21, vs 22 tells you what the will of God is. those people speaking to Jesus was guilty of iniquity (vs 23) why? the had the nerve to stand in front of Jesus and confess there works (vs 22) but why did they make the statment they did, answer cause those accepted and with Jesus did those things, which was the Will of God vs 21. bearing Good fruit to lay at the feet of there savior and Lord, because of there love for him. scripture proof romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. the first group (matthew 7) said lord lord too late!!!!! hello people

the Bible does not contridict itself as some believe it is a large love letter to Gods people from God and has sweet harmony.

apologist would you care to share some scripture with us? or perhaps coment on some i have already provided? i am not defending kc, i do not read his stuff, except of course to discover if his words are twisted and misquoted.

Originally posted by norman
apologist would you care to share some scripture with us? or perhaps coment on some i have already provided? i am not defending kc, i do not read his stuff, except of course to discover if his words are twisted and misquoted.

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Hi Norman.

What would you like to know? I don't see what you are getting at with your scripture references. How does that tie in with Kenneth Copeland's teachings?

God Bless

marvel not about the little miracles healing/ prosperity/casting out devils/ they are certinaly great and quite a blessing for us/ but the biggest and best miracle is the fact that God could even forgive a misreable bunch as ourselves. God bless (spoken out loud and released from my mouth) and good night.

What would you like to know? I don't see what you are getting at with your scripture references. How does that tie in with Kenneth Copeland's teachings?

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do you go to church? this subject has nothing to do with kc, this subject has to do with journislism and christanity in crisis and hersey hunters. and how they twist and take out of context the words of people, i know seen it done with my own words, by hersey hunters.

Originally posted by norman
marvel not about the little miracles healing/ prosperity/casting out devils/ they are certinaly great and quite a blessing for us/ but the biggest and best miracle is the fact that God could even forgive a misreable bunch as ourselves. God bless (spoken out loud and released from my mouth) and good night.

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What miracles? Healings? If the gift of healing that the Apostles had still exists then how come these people aren't down at the mortuary giving people back their loved ones who have departed?

God Bless

Originally posted by norman

do you go to church? this subject has nothing to do with kc, this subject has to do with journislism and christanity in crisis and hersey hunters. and how they twist and take out of context the words of people, i know seen it done with my own words, by hersey hunters.

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Yes I go to church. I am a member of Berean Baptist Church where we have been attending for 18 years. What does church attendance have to do with it? I have heard these people speak with my own ears and they are teaching false doctrine.....period!
Which one would you like to discuss?

God Bless

I believe God does heal on the rare occasion, if only to glorify Himself and draw more believers to Him. In more ancient days people leaned on God a lot more. They needed Him more. Now,
we are fat and lazy, especially in western countries. We do not possess the faith in God people once had. They do not revere God
as people use to.

Now we just run to the doctor or medicine cabinet. And now either people do not believe they can have the some of the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in the New Testament or you have the opposite where the preachers have gone so far to the other side,
that they are teaching God has to heal us because we say so.

There is a balance. It is difficult to find a good church that teaches the ultimate, glorious holiness of God and how we are to look to Him when we pray for a healing. God does bless whom He will, and curse whom He curses. It is all to work, utimately to His will.

We can not just go around healing everyone we see. We must learn to discern the will of God. For instance in Acts 3:

6 Then Peter said, "Silver or gold I do not have, but what I have I give you. In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, walk."

7 Taking him by the right hand, he helped him up, and instantly the man's feet and ankles became strong.

8 He jumped to his feet and began to walk. Then he went with them into the temple courts, walking and jumping, and praising God.

9 When all the people saw him walking and praising God,

10 they recognized him as the same man who used to sit begging at the temple gate called Beautiful, and they were filled with wonder and amazement at what had happened to him.

John and Peter did not go around healing everybody there. It was enough to gather everyones attention, so, they could admonish them to turn to Christ. Everytime Christ or His disciples healed people, there was further purpose behind it; to glorify God.

To prove my point, although Paul counted healing as one of the gifts of the spirit, he had a "thorn" in his side God would not heal.
Paul prescribed wine to Timothy as a medicine for his stomach problems. In these instances, Gods grace was sufficient. It was for them that they would not become proud.

So, what we perceive as Gods miracles arent everything, but that does not say they are nonexistent nor are they to be the norm in
our prsent condition.

Yes I go to church. I am a member of Berean Baptist Church where we have been attending for 18 years. What does church attendance have to do with it? I have heard these people speak with my own ears and they are teaching false doctrine.....period!

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i am glad you go to church, the question to me is important because those i have delt with in past on other bb's did not go to church, and with the handle you use i would hope that you atleast showed up in a church, i actually like the baptist church most of my ancestors were baptist elders, and i have attended baptist church also, i will give you people an a+ for having the doctrine of salvation correct, i love listening to Charles Stanley a good man he is, btw our salvation doctrin is identical to yours, that is if you believe in eternal security, our susposed founder (ew kenyon)according to cic's report.[end of that sentance] Got his start in the "free will baptist church" they were baptist but they believed in annointing the sick with oil. Odly enough e.w. kenyon also believd in pre trib rapture, long before that was the normal view. your church does believe that our salvation is through Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ and not based on good works and that it is eternal security correct? let me know if i am wrong on the beliefs of your denomination and salvation. Can i ask one more question before we leap into healing discussion, as a Baptist how many people have you lead to the Lord?
now let us discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit and healing? as found in 1 cor 12th chapter, i would take it that you and your denomination believe that those gifts are no longer in operation today within the body of Christ, if i am correct in that assumption would you kindly Use God's Word and present your proof, if i am incorrect in what you believe as a denomination. then kindly correct me.
i have already scratched the healing subject in a couple post here, namley the parralell accounts of matthew and mark, The great commission. and also the fact that it is Gods will see topic " not everyone saying Lord Lord" plus the fact the gifts are mentioned in 1 cor 12 th chapter, and 1 of them is healing.
your denomination does believe that a person receives the Holy Spirit when born again correct?

Just because we claim a verse in the bible does not automatically force the hand of God to obey our will. God is not a geni: a god in a bottle or a book which we open and command to do our will.

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well put! another common mis understanding in what we believe, let me now go back to page one of this thread and ctr c+p a statment i already brought out.The law of faith is not some rigid demand that causes God to bow to our whim, but rather a principle by which we meet the conditions of God's covenant promises and God performs his promise. If God gives us a promise in his word we have the right to believe (faith) that God will deliver. His promises to us = God's will.

It wouldn't surprise me. I heard him say once, "How can you glorify God in a wheelchair?" He was being sarcastic and teaching that people are in wheelchair's because they don't have enough faith for God to heal them.

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it does sound sarcastic but so does telling someone they will go to hell for an eternity, if they do not receive Jesus. In the Bible the only time i have seen God getting glorified was when healings happened, and i am not trying to be rude or sarcastic to anyone, being rude is telling them they got to sit in that chair, that GOD wants them there, that they are suffering for Jesus. that is an evil report to be quite honest with you. oh God the giants are too big. Jesus said move that mountain get out of that boat, heal the sick cast out them devils, lean not unto your own understanding.

To prove my point, although Paul counted healing as one of the gifts of the spirit, he had a "thorn" in his side God would not heal.

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go here read pauls thorn link click here
to the person commenting on vineyard music, yes they do put out some great praise and worship music, i just love it, The Bible does say God inhabits the praises of his people, want to see Jesus pop in the cd, lift your hands and start praising, proof that God will show up the demons start a running.

What miracles? Healings? If the gift of healing that the Apostles had still exists then how come these people aren't down at the mortuary giving people back their loved ones who have departed?

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i see them all the time, been involved myself, gone to the hospital when a person was on life support, with multiple nurses assigned to them, the family wanted to pull the plug we prayed 2 years later he is still alive and well, his doctors do not know why, many many more too. a major obsticle we have to overcome is the fact that the church has told them God wants you sick, he did it so you could suffer and be humble, no God did not do it the devil did, cause he hates you and wants to utterly destroy your testimony, and pull your plug.