Sin

Heb 5:8 "Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered; and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him, declared by God high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

We are all made perfect through Jesus.

When we look at revelations, we see Jesus is wearing robes of red, while the saved in heaven are wearing robes of white. You know why? Because Jesus made our robes white by his own blood.

**I hope the above has something to do with the topic at hand**

Dave (Is Dave ok, rather than your whole name?),

You are indeed a master of talking around a subject. The passage in Hebrews is great, but I think off topic. There's another thread talking about "Can the saved fall away (and then come back)". That's a different issue from "Can we sin after being reborn". Thrice I've asked, are you walking your talk, and no reply. Are you apostate to your own interpretation, or have you indeed, committed no sin since being saved? Or are you not saved, in which case I should not be especially listening to you for instruction.

Don't get me wrong, I find your point of view very interesting and thought provoking, but it appears to me to have so many inconsistencies as to not be valid. I've prayed over it, but haven't gotten much further than what my mind sees to be the clearest interpretation. To wit, I know I'm saved, I know I sin. But I listen to your point of view.

Let me ask the same question from a different point of view. Is it your opinion that someone who sins after being born again, wasn't truly born again? OSAS in reverse?

In Christ,

No doubt scripture is clear the all will fall short, and all will sin, and all can only be made righteous THROUGH Jesus, and Him alone.

I believe the NT's basic teachings about sin is this: Sin keeps homanity away from God, but sin cannot keep Jesus away from humanity.

Dave is fine, J.R.

Originally posted by jrmorganjr
There's another thread talking about "Can the saved fall away (and then come back)". That's a different issue from "Can we sin after being reborn".

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A person who falls away sins, because he lacks the grace not to sin. A person who does not fall away does not sin, because of the grace his will cooperates with.

Thrice I've asked, are you walking your talk, and no reply.

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Such a personal question! And one which is really between myself and my confessor. If it makes you feel better, regard me as merely a theologian. But I know whereof I speak.

it appears to me to have so many inconsistencies as to not be valid. I've prayed over it, but haven't gotten much further than what my mind sees to be the clearest interpretation.

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Prayer takes time. As does conversion of heart. But you can't drink milk forever.

Is it your opinion that someone who sins after being born again, wasn't truly born again? OSAS in reverse?

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A person can not be born again without being born of Spirit, which is recieved by obeying Christs teachings. A person who has recieved this Spirit has Christ living through them, and Christ can not sin. Yet, they retain free will and can cast off the Spirit and return to a life of sin. As whether it is truly possibly to repent again, well, I doubt it. But this isn't impossible because of God so much as human nature. But drink the milk of that link first.

A person can not be born again without being born of Spirit, which is recieved by obeying Christs teachings. A person who has recieved this Spirit has Christ living through them, and Christ can not sin. Yet, they retain free will and can cast off the Spirit and return to a life of sin. As whether it is truly possibly to repent again, well, I doubt it. But this isn't impossible because of God so much as human nature. But drink the milk of that link first.

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Arghhhhhhhhhhhh

Dave, you truly need

Maybe people who had death-bed conversions can go to heaven under Dave's theory??? There is absolutely room for no one in your "religion", Dave. I am so glad Jesus is not so rigid.

Originally posted by Christi
There is absolutely room for no one in your "religion", Dave.

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I'm only quoting the scriptures. I wouldn't say that there is no room, but it is certaintly a narrow gate.

John 3:5 "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."

John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains upon him."

John 14:15-17 "If you love me, you will keep my commandments. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it."

Acts 5:32 St. Peter: "We are witnesses of these things, as is the holy Spirit that God has given to those who obey him."

Romans 8:9-14 St. Paul "But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit, if only the Spirit of God dwells in you. Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is alive because of righteousness. If the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised Christ from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also, through his Spirit that dwells in you. Consequently, brothers, we are not debtors to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die, but if by the spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God."

1st John 3:7-10 St. John -- "Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous. Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God. In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother."

Hebrews 6:4-6 (St. Bart, or Sts. Avilla and Priscilla, or maybe St. Paul): "For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift and shared in the holy Spirit and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to bring them to repentance again, since they are recrucifying the Son of God for themselves and holding him up to contempt."

Hebrews 10:26-29 "If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries. Anyone who rejects the law of Moses is put to death without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Do you not think that a much worse punishment is due the one who has contempt for the Son of God, considers unclean the covenant-blood by which he was consecrated, and insults the spirit of grace?"

Are these enough, or do you want twenty more?

Dave, I think it best if I don't argue with you, but I WILL pray for you. You must be under a lot of condemnation and guilt if you truly believe saved persons never sin again. You will be in my prayers. My first inclination was to start whipping out verses proving you wrong, but I feel that will be unproductive for us both......I will pray that you may see the grace and mercy of our Lord, as well as His holiness.

Originally posted by Christi
Dave, I think it best if I don't argue with you

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A very wise course of action!

but I WILL pray for you. You must be under a lot of condemnation and guilt if you truly believe saved persons never sin again.

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Why should that be?

John 16:7 "For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. And when he comes he will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and condemnation"

If you don't listen to the Spirit, you will never repent. Don't you think it is better to listen and repent, than to harden your heart? You would seem to be praying that I harden my heart. Please don't pray about that!

My first inclination was to start whipping out verses proving you wrong

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Proving me wrong, or the scriptures I have quoted wrong? Just consider those scriptures.

John 14:19-21 "In a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me, because I live and you will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I in you. Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him."

John 15:4-10 "Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.

"If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples. As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love."

Romans 8:1 "Hence, now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

I will pray that you may see the grace and mercy of our Lord, as well as His holiness.

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I have seen all these things. I pray you will know the power of God to lead you to repentance.

"A person can not be born again without being born of Spirit, which is recieved by obeying Christs teachings. A person who has recieved this Spirit has Christ living through them, and Christ can not sin. Yet, they retain free will and can cast off the Spirit and return to a life of sin. As whether it is truly possibly to repent again, well, I doubt it. But this isn't impossible because of God so much as human nature. But drink the milk of that link first."

*sigh* then no one is a christian. I think, as I said before, you missed a key part...PRACTICE sin.

Dave: I am not arguing with you, not because I am wise....but because I am kind. I would wink back, if only I had enough posts. For now though, I feel it best to allow for the premise that I may have misunderstood you.g you. My understanding is that you are saying a person who is truly saved will not sin again. And that in your opinion for a person who does, repentance isn't possible. Am I correct in interpreting your post?

Hi Dave,

I can only offer you my love, friend. Even if you are somehow deceiving yourself that your are now sinless in perpetuo if you are saved, which I consider unscriptural (the disagreement and resolution between Peter & Paul in Acts being the simplest way to refute your contention - surely all the Apostles (save Judas Iscariot) were saved), I no of noone else even trying to make this claim, whereas I know many who proclaim Christ Lord & Savior. I'm sure you'll think that "Lord, Lord...I never knew you" applies, and you'd just be wrong on that. Many people over various threads have exposed you to the error of your interpretation and you obviously don't see your errancy. All that's left for us is prayer. You're quoting of scripture doesn't help - what I read when I see your proof texts and what you read are obviously different. I must accept what the Comforter says to me, rather than you, would that we agreed.

Your body is still corrupt, Dave, as is the world. Only Christ was without sin, even in your theology, and that because he was divine. What's the point of having to die, and then being raised again imperishable, if you are already imperishable? That is, if you are truly without sin, Dave, you shouldn't die of "natural" causes.

This is part of the problem with internet discussions. We have no authority over you, to ensure that your heresy doesn't get taught somewhere. You would have everyone questioning their salvation. What a scary, unloving situation. Every time someone fell, they would start to wonder if they were ever "really reborn." Horror! The Devil's lies!

May God lead you to truth.

In Christ,

Scripture clearly says that if a person calls himself sinless or thinks he is sinless, that person is perverted a decieved.

I pray for ya.