Nudity in context

gracefaith · Jan 22, 2005

Please discuss the nudity in the following contexts.

1) Skinny dipping with members of the same sex.
2) Medical exams by a doctor of the opposite gender.
3) Being a "living specimen" for a medical school class consisting of both male and female students.
4) Modeling for a professional artist of the same gender. Or, of the opposite gender.
5) Modeling for a "life drawing" class at an art school consisting of both male and female students.
6) Appearing nude while playing a character in a play or movie.

Is the nudity immoral? Why or why not?

Added 1/25:
Okay, perhaps "immoral" is not the best phrase. Would any consider the nudity in these circumstances "immodest?"

Eve_Sundancer · Jan 23, 2005

No, it's nothing unnatural or strange. I'm really pretty comfortable with things, and while some of those things would make me feel a little weird if I didn't know the people (as in 5 or 6), it wouldn't be too bad. At least, I don't think it would, I have no personal experience in this.

Eudaimonist · Jan 23, 2005

All those situations sound fine to me. They are all contexts in which "one can trust oneself". In other words, there is no cause to believe that one might overstep one's ability to resist the temptation to have an unwise sexual experience.

Allister · Jan 23, 2005

why does being naked lead people to assume that it will tempt people into unwise sexual experience? People are much less attractive physically when they are naked. the temptation is in the mystery that lies beneth the clothes.
and what is

an unwise sexual experience.

?

Eudaimonist · Jan 23, 2005

Allister said:
why does being naked lead people to assume that it will tempt people into unwise sexual experience?

Sexual impulses exist. Of course, some people may be able to have a high degree of trust in themselves. It depends on the strength of one's character in this regard.

People are much less attractive physically when they are naked. the temptation is in the mystery that lies beneth the clothes.

Nudity is a big turn on for me. Your experience may be different.

and what is unwise sexual experience ?

Being unwise about one's choice of sexual experiences. Having sex at the wrong time, with the wrong person, without proper protection, etc.

12volt_man · Jan 23, 2005

gracefaith said:
Please discuss the nudity in the following contexts.

1) Skinny dipping with members of the same sex.
2) Medical exams by a doctor of the opposite gender.
3) Being a "living specimen" for a medical school class consisting of both male and female students.
4) Modeling for a professional artist of the same gender. Or, of the opposite gender.
5) Modeling for a "life drawing" class at an art school consisting of both male and female students.
6) Appearing nude while playing a character in a play or movie.

Is the nudity immoral? Why or why not?

Nudity isn't immoral. There are instances where it may not be prudent, but it's not immoral.

I live on the Chesapeake Bay, where we have a lot of creeks and hidden coves and harbors. I do go skinny dipping every now and then if I'm by myself or if there are no women around.

I've also had nude models in my art classes. I've been asked to do it, myself, but I can't stand still that long.

As for #2, I did see a girl doctor for a while, but I don't think she ever examined me without my clothes on. If she had, it would have been no big deal. It's a clinical thing and nothing sexual.

#6 I have no problem with if it's done tastefully but is it really necessary?

feral · Jan 23, 2005

1) Skinny dipping with members of the same sex.
2) Medical exams by a doctor of the opposite gender.
3) Being a "living specimen" for a medical school class consisting of both male and female students.
4) Modeling for a professional artist of the same gender. Or, of the opposite gender.
5) Modeling for a "life drawing" class at an art school consisting of both male and female students.
6) Appearing nude while playing a character in a play or movie.

Is the nudity immoral? Why or why not?

I do not think nudity is ever immoral. While I think it can be inappropriate for the situation or uncalled for, our bodies are not immoral and it is not wrong to display them for the purposes you listed above. Skinny dipping with members of the same sex, presuming you are not homosexual, is not going to inspire any lust, nor should any of the purposes listed. Being nude for the arts or to receive medical treatment is fine and normal. I think people ought to think about the effects of their nudity on others - such as when someone wears clothes to inspire lust or attraction in other people - but just being naked to swim or because you are being examined in the doctor's office isn't wrong.

crashedman · Jan 24, 2005

gracefaith said:
Please discuss the nudity in the following contexts.

1) Skinny dipping with members of the same sex.

If it is a nudist men's only group that forbids sexual advances, alcohol and drugs then nothing wrong with that. In fact, I attend such a group, although we also get women and children involved. Anybody who harrasses or makes them feel uncomfortable is turned away.

2) Medical exams by a doctor of the opposite gender.

Nothing wrong with this. I had a male doctor stick his fingers up my anus a few times when I had to go for an examination for a polyp and a test to see if I had bowel cancer.

3) Being a "living specimen" for a medical school class consisting of both male and female students.

No. Although there are some instances now where the females can keep their bras on if they so wish.

4) Modeling for a professional artist of the same gender. Or, of the opposite gender.

Having modelled nude and been a semi-professional nude art photographer I see no problem with this. Nude art is not designed to evoke erotic desires, but rather a study of the human body. Professional artists treat it as very matter of fact, and they have a policy of not touching the models.

5) Modeling for a "life drawing" class at an art school consisting of both male and female students.

See above. As long as it does not depict explicit sex then I'd say 'no' to this.

6) Appearing nude while playing a character in a play or movie.

If it is Jesus being pinned to a cross in the nude, then I think it would be Biblically correct in that sense. Back in those days, people were hung completely naked, genitals and all, on crosses. They didn't wear loincloths which is what these politically correct artists might have us believe.

Is the nudity immoral? Why or why not?

No, because in these cases it has nothing to do with sex or lust. The nakedness is not being enforced, neither is any sexual behaviour (such as the horrific photos of the Iraqi prisoners).

Is the nakedness immoral in these instances:

1) A group of people following the traditions of the early church and being baptised out on a beach or at the lakes with men, women and children all attending, because they think it's silly getting their clothes all wet?

2) A Christian home worship service where people are reading their Bibles stark naked and taking notes.

3) Children being photographed nude for medical journals

4) A crowd of 7,000 people in the city posing for a photographer with a church in the background

5) Island or Aboriginal girls and women dancing topless for tourists as part of their native dress

6) A nudist beach party put on as a fund-raiser for charity events (in Australia, the Fred Hollows Foundation has been doing this for a number of years to help the blind overseas).

Crashedman

merryheart · Jan 24, 2005

Nudity isn't immoral - actions and thoughts might be immoral, but nudity is a state of being. It is something we all do once or twice a day from birth to death (unless you take your longjohns off one leg at a time to put on the new pair ^_^

)

Ave Maria · Jan 24, 2005

gracefaith said:
Please discuss the nudity in the following contexts.

Ok, will do!

[quute]1) Skinny dipping with members of the same sex.[/quote]

I see nothing wrong with it.

2) Medical exams by a doctor of the opposite gender.

Again, nothing wrong with it.

3) Being a "living specimen" for a medical school class consisting of both male and female students.

Again, I see no problem with this situation.

4) Modeling for a professional artist of the same gender. Or, of the opposite gender.

I see nothing wrong with it.

5) Modeling for a "life drawing" class at an art school consisting of both male and female students.

I see nothing wrong with this either.

6) Appearing nude while playing a character in a play or movie.

I also see nothing wrong with this.

Is the nudity immoral? Why or why not?

Nope, nudity is not immoral. We were created that way weren't we? We were born that way weren't we?

cweb255 · Jan 25, 2005

When is nudity ever immoral? There can be times when it is offensive to other humans, but that doesn't make it immoral. There are times when farting can be offensive to other humans, but that doesn't make it immoral.

blue_crystal · Jan 25, 2005

I'd say it's immoral if it's non-consensual or exploitive.

cweb255 · Jan 25, 2005

What about in places where nudity is the de facto standard? Many African and South American cultures don't have clothes. How can that be non-consensual or exploitive?

Lazy Iguana · Jan 30, 2005

I used to nude model regularly at an art gallery; I also modelled nude at a university a few times. I was blessed with a beautifully well proportioned body; consequently, when dealing with young females (ie, under the age of 30), I received unwanted attention. As common sence dictates, attractive people attract attention, and this certianly applies to nude models. Being too physically attractive can really create ackward situations for models, which can turn models into objects of lust. You can never completely get rid of the sexual side, especially with attractive models.

From my experience as a male model, older women (ie, over the age of 30) are refined and restrained. If they find a male model attractive, they don't externalize it. Young women (ie, under the age of 30), on the other hand, aren't as refined and restrained; consequently, if they find a male model attractive, they tend to externalize it.

Risen Tree · Jan 30, 2005

gracefaith said:
Please discuss the nudity in the following contexts.

1) Skinny dipping with members of the same sex.

Not a problem.

2) Medical exams by a doctor of the opposite gender.

Not a problem as long as the doctor doesn't have alterior motives.

3) Being a "living specimen" for a medical school class consisting of both male and female students.

Not a problem. Doctors and nurses are exposed to nudity on a daily basis. It's just a part of the job.

4) Modeling for a professional artist of the same gender. Or, of the opposite gender.

Not a problem.

5) Modeling for a "life drawing" class at an art school consisting of both male and female students.

This is the trickiest question of the six.

Inherently, not a problem. However, most people in our society associate nudity with sex; therefore, whenever someone disrobes for the purposes of figure drawing in an art class, the act can carry an unintentional effect of arousal. This is unfortunate; any art historian knows that many great works have contained nudity in them.

6) Appearing nude while playing a character in a play or movie.

Not a problem.

Is the nudity immoral? Why or why not?

Added 1/25:
Okay, perhaps "immoral" is not the best phrase. Would any consider the nudity in these circumstances "immodest?"

You have to remember that modesty is a relative term and is largely defined by culture. What might pass here in the States, for example, might be considered lewd in the Middle East; likewise, what is perfectly allowable in Europe might not be so tolerated here.

Just remember that nudity is not inherently sexual, and it will set the world right for you.

Johnnz · Jan 30, 2005

I have no issue with nudity, although a large section of the Christiancommunity does.

One reason why many Christians oppose nudity is their belief in what constitutes 'lust'. There is a common but unfortunate association between male erections and sexual desire (lust in Christian circles). This is far too simplistic. Each society has its own sexually arousing (erotic) symbols. Today, the naked female body has become a strong erotic stimulus, which will frequently result in male arousal. This is a simple reality.

That such arousal is always morally suspect outside of a committed relationship, as is commonly assumed, must be questioned. Looking back over several decades, beginning with my teenage years, I can clearly acknowledge the connection. Erections were common, and all to easily triggered. Yet, I have never struggled with my commitment to a sexual relationship only with my wife. I have never either desired or as much seriously entertained the idea of sex with another woman either before or after marriage. I learned that arousal as a simple repsonse to a sexual stimulus did not equate with 'lust'.

The word translated 'lust' in Matthew (that one about looking at a women lustfully) means a strong desire. Jesus used the same word when he told his desciples that he desired to eat the passover meal with them. Lust then is a considered desire, not a basic physiological response to a specific stimulus.

I do not accept that an erection inevitably means prurient motives, any more than I accept that a gastric response to the sight or smell of good food means that I am a glutton. Overall, our attitudes towards human sexuality are pretty unhealthy. Far too many males do view women wrongly. But to see all male arousal as morally wrong is just as unhealthy. The practical problem is that it is impossible to discern whether a guy is just having a conditioned response to an erotic stimulus, or whether he is engaging in distasteful desires. Thus, it will be only amongst people we know and trust that we can be totally relaxed about being naked.

One of the greatest contributions nudists can make is to attest their freedom from the erotic conditioning of society, and to their appreciation and enjoyment of the human body without the constant intrusion of sexual desire.

John

NZ

blue_crystal · Jan 30, 2005

Very well written John. Thank you!

crashedman · Jan 30, 2005

Johnnz,

I do not accept that an erection inevitably means prurient motives, any more than I accept that a gastric response to the sight or smell of good food means that I am a glutton. Overall, our attitudes towards human sexuality are pretty unhealthy. Far too many males do view women wrongly. But to see all male arousal as morally wrong is just as unhealthy. The practical problem is that it is impossible to discern whether a guy is just having a conditioned response to an erotic stimulus, or whether he is engaging in distasteful desires. Thus, it will be only amongst people we know and trust that we can be totally relaxed about being naked.

You bring up very valid points. What do you think is the cause for males viewing women wrongly? Do you feel that religious upbringing can be the cause of it?

I used to go to a nudist group run by a guy who was a Christian who viewed any kind of erection as sacrosant. If it happened, then either go for a cold shower, wrap a towel around your waist or face expulsion if you can't control them. He was offended for the sake of the women.

One of the greatest contributions nudists can make is to attest their freedom from the erotic conditioning of society, and to their appreciation and enjoyment of the human body without the constant intrusion of sexual desire.

In one sense, true. What do you think of nudist workshops being conducted to help rehabilitate inappropriate contento addicts? You might like to see this site:
www.experiencegrace.com in which the pastor Jeff Bowman recommends it as a means of breaking free from the bondages of inappropriate contentography.

Crashedman

Johnnz · Jan 31, 2005

crashedman said:
Johnnz,

You bring up very valid points. What do you think is the cause for males viewing women wrongly? Do you feel that religious upbringing can be the cause of it?

One of the greatest contributions nudists can make is to attest their freedom from the erotic conditioning of society, and to their appreciation and enjoyment of the human body without the constant intrusion of sexual desire.

In one sense, true. What do you think of nudist workshops being conducted to help rehabilitate inappropriate contento addicts? You might like to see this site:
www.experiencegrace.com in which the pastor Jeff Bowman recommends it as a means of breaking free from the bondages of inappropriate contentography.

Crashedman

Yes, religious upbringing can be a factor. But there are many people with no religious background or comittment who have the same socially conditioned reactions. Religious people are just part of a culture where the female body has been eroticised. Many Christian objections to societal sexaul values are justified. Nevertheless I really do wonder why Christians are not more at ease with human sexuality than they are.

I have no informed knowledge of nudity being used to rehabilitate inappropriate content addicts. I am much more focused on the situation of the 'average' male (and female) Christian trying to live a sexually moral life. I believe that far too many grapple with badly defined concepts (lust is one, hence this post) and lack of suitable information.

So much of Christain attitudes towards human sexuality are shame based, arising from what I consider to be poor exegesis of the Genesis story. My post on lust was a very basic attempt to state a common sexual issue more precisely, and hope that is is helpful to some people.

John
NZ

gracefaith · Jan 31, 2005

Hmmm...This isn't exactly where I saw this thread going, but I'll roll with it.

I have always been perplexed at where Christians and people in general draw the line between nudity and modesty, sexuality and lust. I actually met quite a few people who think that we ought not be naked in front of anyone but our spouse - most begrudging allow doctors as well, but only out of necessity. This being said, I am surprised by the responses so far.

I agree that sexual arousal does not equal lust and indeed, I would think it very inhuman of us not be aroused on occasion when in the presence of nudity - even if it is within one of the acceptable circumstances I started this thread with. I think it is when you begin to feed your arousal and reduce the any person in your mind into a purely sexual object that we have problem and have begun to "view them wrongly."

I think our culture contributes to the dehumanization of people into purely sexual objects in many ways, from inappropriate contentography to casual sex. I think this is one of the things the nudity=lust camp are responding against. It may be an overreaction, but there is no denying that there is serious problem out there. In other words, Christians who are overly concerned about such things might not be suffering from an unhealthy view of sexuality as much as they don't want to contribute to culture throwing the sanctity of it down the toilet.

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