Weak Conscience Christians

davidgeminden · Jan 8, 2005

I have been in the Fundamental movement since about 1972. I have an observation that I would like to share with other Fundamentalists for the purpose of finding out if other Fundamentalists have made to the same conclusions that I have.

In the 1970's I observed very few Fundamental Churches following the KJV-only idea. As time passed more and more Fundamental Christians and Fundamental Churches started following the KJV-only idea. Today, it appears, to me, that about 20% of the Fundamental movement is following the KJV-only idea.

Why Fundamental Christians seem to be the most susceptible to falling for the KJV-only idea, was a question that arose in my mind many years ago when I first started noticing increasing numbers of Fundamental Churches following the KJV-only idea. The first thing I observed about the Fundamental movement, that I am a part of, was that the Fundamental movement seemed to contain almost all of modern Christianity's weak conscience Christians. Also, I heard the KJV-only Christians give detailed explanations concerning old manuscripts of the Bible that they rejected, and the type of some Christians involved on non-KJV English translation committees as the reasons for believing that all non-KJV English translations of the Bible are sin in themselves. Most of the arguments, to me, seemed to not be logical. I begin questioning as to what was driving, or causing, them to use logic that seemed to me to be illogical. From face to face discussions with KJV-only Christians, I concluded that they had extremely weak consciences about a great many doubtful things. They appeared to have all the same characteristics that the weak conscience Christians described in Romans chapter 14 and 1Corinthians chapter 8 had. A weak conscience about non-KJV English translations of the Bible was one of the many doubtful things that they had a weak conscience about. Therefore, I concluded that their weak conscience was overriding their common sense reasoning ability, which caused them make illogical arguments when trying to prove that all non-KJV English translations of the Bible are sin.

Have any of you come to the same conclusions as I have, as to why a significant percentage (approximately 20%) of Christians in the Fundamental movement are the most susceptible to falling for the KJV-only idea?

Another Brother in Christ,
David C. Geminden

rural_preacher · Jan 8, 2005

I think you hit the bullseye on this! AMEN!

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Truth and Reconciliation · Jan 8, 2005

You definitely made a strong point there. But I would also like to add:

You must also examine what type of people are most influenced by the KJV, but I can't go into this anymore without using stereotypes. I believe the play Inherit the Wind depicts such fundamentalist Christians very well...

Oh yeah, take a look at this "fundamentalist" Christian website: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/ This site is pretty scary.

rural_preacher · Jan 8, 2005

Truth and Reconciliation said:
Oh yeah, take a look at this "fundamentalist" Christian website: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/ This site is pretty scary.

That website is a perfect example of the fringe that gives "fundamentalism" a bad name. Grrrrr.

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Theophorus · Jan 10, 2005

Truth and Reconciliation said:
You definitely made a strong point there. But I would also like to add:

You must also examine what type of people are most influenced by the KJV, but I can't go into this anymore without using stereotypes. I believe the play Inherit the Wind depicts such fundamentalist Christians very well...

Oh yeah, take a look at this "fundamentalist" Christian website: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/ This site is pretty scary.

I do not know if this was the intention, but I suspect it is the case concerning the chair photo. The upside down cross is a symbol of Peter the apostle. Tradition says that when he was crucified, he felt he was unworthy to be put to death in the same fashion as Christ; so he requested to be crucufied upside down. That symbol is very old and predates the same symbol being used by satanist, which is a relatively new phenomena in comparison.

Gwenyfur · Jan 10, 2005

Ya know, I really enjoy the poetic symmetry of the KJV....But for study, I use a variety of translations...
The Bible is the Bible is the Bible...it's the inerrant, infallible, indestructible, Word of the Living God.

Are we so small minded as to think that His Provident Will won't protect the information He wants His children to know in the translation of it?

Is our God so small we think that He can't?

KJV only's need to take God out of their box, and see the glory and wonders of His love and power

Gwenyfur · Jan 10, 2005

Truth and Reconciliation said:
You definitely made a strong point there. But I would also like to add:

You must also examine what type of people are most influenced by the KJV, but I can't go into this anymore without using stereotypes. I believe the play Inherit the Wind depicts such fundamentalist Christians very well...

Oh yeah, take a look at this "fundamentalist" Christian website: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/ This site is pretty scary.

oh geeze...that site is about the scariest thing I've seen since the Exorcist came out!

bleh! Reminds me of the school my mom sent me to when I was a kid....freaky...and not a wonder that I turned off of God's path for so long....well..that and I was a *tad* rebellious...

Good grief...Well...if nothing else it's another group to pray for

fluffy_rainbow · Jan 10, 2005

That site is repulsive. I read their article on marriage and divorce and it implies that some women deserve to be abused! It says that tyrannical and abusive husbands obviously have a reason for their anger and perhaps you should humble yourself. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Gwenyfur · Jan 10, 2005

fluffy_rainbow said:
That site is repulsive. I read their article on marriage and divorce and it implies that some women deserve to be abused! It says that tyrannical and abusive husbands obviously have a reason for their anger and perhaps you should humble yourself. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

LOL...
My first hubby beat me up, wound up breaking 2 ribs and my nose....

want to know why?

I made gravy in the wrong pan...

yeah, I was really prideful in doing that... *please note sarcasm*

These people give fundies a bad name!

Sketcher · Jan 10, 2005

When it comes to looking for a good Bible to hit people with, I'm KJV only. Hardcover.

Gwenyfur · Jan 10, 2005

twistedsketch said:
When it comes to looking for a good Bible to hit people with, I'm KJV only. Hardcover.

ROFL

The Word of God has an impact, in more ways than one if you're using a hardcover

fluffy_rainbow · Jan 10, 2005

Gwenyfur said:
My first hubby beat me up, wound up breaking 2 ribs and my nose....

want to know why?

I made gravy in the wrong pan...

yeah, I was really prideful in doing that... *please note sarcasm*

Yeah, I know the feeling. My ex-husband threw me around the living room, causing me to have a miscarriage. Why? He had lost his wallet and accused me of stealing it. I was so stupid, selfish, and prideful for accidentally not checking his pants pockets when I washed them and it had fallen out in the dryer. My punishment (aside from the beating that resulted in the death of our unborn child)...he washed all of my good clothes with a felt-tipped ink pen.

He cheated on me with a co-worker. Why? Because he claimed I had gotten "fat and repulsive to look at". Gosh, I was soooo stoo-pid and prideful.

Gwenyfur · Jan 10, 2005

Well, praise God we're both out of those situations!!!!

I know He blessed me with my DH, who puts up with my ... quirks...left from my first marriage...

Truth and Reconciliation · Jan 10, 2005

twistedsketch said:
When it comes to looking for a good Bible to hit people with, I'm KJV only. Hardcover.

I don't know whether this is sarcasm or not, but...

If it's not sarcasm, then let me tell you a little story, my friend. I used to have a KJV Bible and simply loved it. I was also reading Shakespeare at the time, so I got into the Olde English stuff. I was a junior in high school and started to speak to other people in "oldespeak". People also knew me as a Christian, so I practically lived one of the Christian stereotypes.

I stopped several months later, after people became repulsive towards my speech - not only I was incoherent, but I was more or less stupid. I believe the KJV is one of the great literary works in English, but the language is archaic for this modern world. Christians change, and since our goal is to reach as many people as we can for Christ, we must do it in the most efficient way.

I used to use the NKJV for study because I liked the poetic language, but I now use the NAB, which is the RCC Bible with the Deuterocanon - since I may come across a Catholic brother or sister with questions and it's relatively close in translation to the NIV. For me, using the KJV may confuse people and/or repel them from Christ (the oldespeak Christian stereotype).

In Truth,

Vincent

SuperMama · Jan 11, 2005

No church is going to be perfect. I agree with 89% of that website, and I am divorced. Or rather was I am remarried now. Divorce is not ideal. Like the posters above I was abused (I dont want to share details). Divorce is a sin, but ya know God forgives sinners. It's not like I got married to get divorced and deliberatley annoy God. I agree with lots on that site. There is anti evolution stuff, anti homosexuality and anti abortion, and anti drink, upholding the family, and traditional values etc I agree with all of that. Even if it is stated strongly.

I believe my KJV is the word of God. I know that debate rages over the issue as people produce and counter produce scripture after scripture each believing the other is missing the point. I have books about books proving and debating if the KJV is the true word of God. I believe brother Gipp. http://www.biblebelievers.com/Gipp/GippBooks_Articles.html Brother Gipp came to our church, I have met him. He is a decent good man, with credibity and lots of knowledge. I enjoyed discussing the KJV with him. And we also talked about how false Bibles have helped with the watering down of Gods word. How there is now so much confusion due to the myriad of Bibles. There are hundreds of Bibles. How can they all be right? When you line them up side by side, some of them have to be wrong, some of them are plain lying. When you need a degree in Greek an ancient Hebrew dictionary 3 different concordances, study notes and 7 Bibles - what do you finally lay any credence in? Your personal opinion? The opinion of man? Do you then pick and choose scripture to scripture which version best supports your personal stance on any issue? Isnt that convenient?

What I dont agree with is the statement about a weak conscience. I know I haven't. I believe God uses your conscience to deal with people on an individual basis. Surely ppl differ from their character and life experience which determines more of how much they listen to their conscience. Look I am the type of person who if given so much as 20 cents too much change will turn around and give the cash back to the store owner. Because I am honest and because I could not handle my conscience if I decieved someone. Most of the people I know from my church are neither weak in their conscience or their living. In my country fundemental conservative churches are NOT the norm. They are rare and you have to be strong and stand up for what you believe. Being a fundy is no easy ride. Maybe it is in the Bible belt of America but not here. I think that is wrong about weak conscience. I think weak Christians are more likely to be worshipping from a false bible, and attending a church that looks and acts like the world. Because it is easier and they get less critisizm from the world.

I copied this off that website

[America has aborted over 40 million innocent babies, taken prayer out of the schools, exported violence and sex through the media and internet to the entire world, removed justice from her courts on the highest level and made acceptable what God calls abominations such as homosexuality, adultery, and all kinds of perversions. America is worse than Sodom and Gomorrah. Why should God Bless America???]

I am not anti American at all - Lots of those accusations apply to my country too. But the site has a point. And I think it interesting that some of the posters in this thread see the site content as reprehesible and yet I see the degredation of society as reprehensible. We lower our standards and call ourselves tolerant, PC, and modern. The Bible and God are outdated apparently?

I dont expect folks off this thread to agree when so many have slammed fundemental Christians already. This is just where I am at. I have huge respect for my Pastor (who is American btw). I do not know my Bible as well as he does, the guy has almost virtually memorised it. I can ask a question and only know part of a verse or some small detail and he will in moments flick to the page and know how it is cross referenced. He is convinced the KJV is accurate. He has studied it in detail for 30 years. I even recall him showing me a prophesy in the KJV which has been utterly destroyed by other versions. I have yet to see anyone be anywhere near as knowledgable about the Bible as this man, and he says it is the preserved word of God.

I'd not be happy with an incomplete Bible, or one that has left out scripture, or altered it. Isnt that a sin in itself?

Well its late. While I have disagreed with folks here tonight, I haven't attacked anyone personally. So I'd appreciate not getting flamed for my view.

I am not ashamed of being a Fundemental Christian. Even though it sets me against the PC and liberal and tolerant society that I live in.

Niters for now.

Truth and Reconciliation · Jan 11, 2005

I respect what SuperMama said above. I really do agree that the weak conscience problem is present in the Bible Belt of America, where some of our brothers and sisters there literally live in a bubble they consider as their (not God's) ideal church. That is just wrong...

As for the KJV, I think it's a great Bible and a great piece of literary work. But there comes a problem when people say that the KJV is the only inspired Bible out there. I wouldn't disagree if you prefer the KJV over other translations, but the KJV-only idea almost borders on idolatry (of a certain translation of God's Word).

Personally, I think any Bible translated meaning-for-meaning (it can't be translated word-for-word because some of the words in Hebrew and Greek represent something cultural that has no equivalence in English) from the Hebrew/Greek canon is acceptable: KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, Latin Vulgate, etc.

In Truth,

Vincent

davidgeminden · Jan 17, 2005

Truth and Reconciliation said:
I respect what SuperMama said above. I really do agree that the weak conscience problem is present in the Bible Belt of America, where some of our brothers and sisters there literally live in a bubble they consider as their (not God's) ideal church. That is just wrong...

As for the KJV, I think it's a great Bible and a great piece of literary work. But there comes a problem when people say that the KJV is the only inspired Bible out there. I wouldn't disagree if you prefer the KJV over other translations, but the KJV-only idea almost borders on idolatry (of a certain translation of God's Word).

Personally, I think any Bible translated meaning-for-meaning (it can't be translated word-for-word because some of the words in Hebrew and Greek represent something cultural that has no equivalence in English) from the Hebrew/Greek canon is acceptable: KJV, NKJV, NIV, NASB, Latin Vulgate, etc.

In Truth,

Vincent

Hi Vincent (alias-Truth and Reconciliation),

I usually put my membership in a fundamental Church. Let me explain why I am a member of an independent fundamental Baptist Church. I see at least two major problems with Evangelical churches. The first is their involvement in ecclesiastical unequal yoking with liberal/apostate organizations, which gets them involved in the ecumenical movement. The second is domination by strong conscience Christians that refuse to bear the burden of weak conscience Christians and despise weak conscience Christians. I have found only one major problem with the independent fundamental movement, which is domination by weak conscience Christians. Although I do not want the Church that I am a member of to be ecclesiastically yoked with the Evangelical movement, I still visit with Evangelical Christians. I also visit with Charismatic Christians.

From an idealistic standpoint, I would like to find a Church where the leadership and a high percentage of the membership are strong conscience Christians that bear the burden of weak conscience Christians and bear the burden of weak conscience unsaved folk. However, the percentage of modern Christians who are strong conscience Christians bearing the burden of weak conscience Christians appears to be too small for that to happen at this point in history.

I believe (at least in the USA) that modern true Christiainity is one big-time repeat of the problem that Paul addressed to the Roman Christians in Romans chapter 14. Modern Christiainity has polarized to two main types of Christian groups in the area of doubtful things. One group is made up of predominately weak conscience Christians, the Fundamentalists. The other group is predominately strong conscience Christians that refuse to bear the burden of weak conscience Christians, the Evangelicals.

By the way, I have several different English translations of the Bible. I use them all when I am studying the Bible.

Another Brother in Christ,
David C. Geminden

Truth and Reconciliation · Jan 18, 2005

davidgeminden said:
I believe (at least in the USA) that modern true Christiainity is one big-time repeat of the problem that Paul addressed to the Roman Christians in Romans chapter 14. Modern Christiainity has polarized to two main types of Christian groups in the area of doubtful things. One group is made up of predominately weak conscience Christians, the Fundamentalists. The other group is predominately strong conscience Christians that refuse to bear the burden of weak conscience Christians, the Evangelicals.

Nicely said. Please note that I don't categorize myself into any of the two groups of Christians you depicted above. I don't personally wish to get mixed up in ideology, for that's not important. I am still a growing Christian and is still learning God's ways. My goal is to meet Him one day...

TwinCrier · Jan 18, 2005

I am KJVO because I see the gradula mutation of modern versions to fit modern acceptance of sin. The NIV had at least two homosexuals on their translation comittee. The KJV has been updated repeatedly to modernize the language where it's possible without losing the meaning (the difference between ye and thee is singular and plural, something lost in modern American English). As modern bibles are copyrighted to make money and edited for high sales and popularity, I just don't see that as a method God would use for spreading the truth.

Palatka44 · Jan 18, 2005

One thing that I see every one missing is the money trail. The reason that there are so many translations out there is simple. If Thomas Nelson publishes a brand new version tonight and it hits the streets tomorrow and is a hit with the populace the owner of the copyright is not God but Thomas Nelson.
Now consider that the KJV has been around for some time now and there is no copyright on the text only and no publishing house can lay claim to it.
However if you have a team of Theologians work up a concordance, that has Greek or Aramaic origins for certain words, or publish some notes that correspond with alot of the text, then you have a basis for copyrights.
This debate has nothing to do about weak minds but more to do about the greed of big publishing houses.

Just as a side note Thomas Nelson is used as an example only and in no way am I stating that T.N. is a greedy publisher.

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