Islamic Terrorism ~ The real reason?

SonWorshipper · Oct 7, 2003

I had this post all typed up and my PC just shut down and restarted for no reason

Hmmmmm.

Anyway, I have been contemplating this for awhile and have come to some preliminary conclusions and would like your input to what you think of this.

What is the main purpose of Islam? We know that Muhammad was not the last prophet, but Yeshua was ( one of many things He was and is), so why the "need" for this? Confusion is one I can think of as well as perhaps jealousy on the part of the Ishmaelites? Wanting to have their own prophet?, but I think that this was inspired from the depths of Sheol, for their is one G-d and there is another who wants to be him and will try anything to lead others astray.

But what is the purpose of the terrorism? The suicidal bombings? I think many get caught up in the obvious and overlook the undercurrent, the base root and reasoning if you will, of this.

I believe that it has to do with witnessing.

( Perhaps Yafet can shed some Rabbinic thought on the witness?)

It was important if not certainly pertinent that any that were to be of the twelve were EYE witnesses to the beginning and the end of Yeshua's ministry on earth. For not by one man's word should something be believed, but by two, as well as an eye witness was the most powerful to attest to anything that there is. So here you have eyewitnesses to the ministry, the crucifixion and resurrection of Yeshua to testy to the world of what happened. Now these men believed what they were taught, what they heard and saw with their own eyes and in believing this with their whole hearts and minds attested to it on the pain of death, and many went to their graves in a very tortuous manner for these beliefs. So a case can be built for the heathen that their witness was true because they died for it.

I found this on Christian Persecution:

Christian Persecution: Many of the Early Disciples Died for their Faith
Christian persecution was a dramatic part of early church history. For anyone who holds that the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ was a man-made hoax conspired by a group of disciples should check out the legacy of martyrdom. Eleven of the 12 apostles, and many of the other early disciples, died for their adherence to this story. This is dramatic, since they all witnessed the alleged events of Jesus and still went to their deaths defending their faith. Why is this dramatic, when many throughout history have died martyred deaths for a religious belief? Because people dont die for a lie. Look at human nature throughout history. No conspiracy can be maintained when life or liberty is at stake. Dying for a belief is one thing, but numerous eye-witnesses dying for a known lie is quite another.

Click to expand...

But do you see what I see? That people don't die for a lie. So with that in mind where does that leave Islam?

Achichem · Oct 7, 2003

But do you see what I see? That people don't die for a lie. So with that in mind where does that leave Islam?

Warning, this is a right out of my head thought on the matter.

You make a good point!
But I do not see it that way!(I want to)

I believe what they said is no one defends on a lie, if one is lying and knows its a lie,
so if you confount a lair himself,and you threaten their life they will offten submit.

So I take it you are talking about Mohamed and his jihad. But in that case Islam was expanding not defending!

No one was stopping Islam from existing ,it seems to me that Mohammad and his followers made one offer, Submit, Pay or Die! That is not defending that is attacking!

That actually gives me the opposite opinion: that things forced are mostly a lie!

To adress your other ponit, about islamic terrorism, thay are defending an
Illusion no matter how you look at it or they are just following their role-modal and attacking.

AnthonyForChrist · Oct 7, 2003

I always thought the conflicts between the religion of the Arabs and that of the Jews had to do something with Abraham and his sons Yitschaak and Ishmael. Perhaps a jealously thing that lasted even into our own era? So, this whole conflict seems to be a fighting between brothers...but a tad more intense, eh?

Henaynei · Oct 7, 2003

Just because someone *says* "no one dies for a lie" doesn't make it so.

Perhaps no one dies for what he *believes* is a lie. Muslims don't believe Islam is a lie.

The word Islam means "submission" and the goal of Islam is to bring the world into submission to -llah.

Some of the more assimilated and moderate "reform or conservative" Muslims (especially in the US) will tell you Islam means the Muslim submitting to -llah and the Qoran - and I agree that that is *one* facet - but it is not the whole picture or even the big picture.

The motivator for jihad is the fatwah that the entire world must be brought into submission to -llah. Did you know that dying while furthering this "holy" quest is the ONLY guaranteed path to eternal life for a Muslim?? all other paths are only "maybe - gee I hope so" paths to afterlife glory for them. That is why the mothers send their children out as terrorist bombers - what mother would not want guaranteed eternal life for their child?

If you are one who sees the Muslim/Arab issue as strictly or primarily a "sibling rivalry" issue between Israel and the Arabs then you have:
1) bought the spin and propaganda the Muslim world has been feeding the press for 40+ years
2) you have not been watching the news around the world for there are literally dozens of wars going on right now - is places like Burma, Pakistan, India, Afghanistan, the Philippines, Thailand and many other places where there ARE NO JEWS and the Muslims are using terrorism and brutality to blackmail the governments and peoples into governing their way. The vast majority of wars around the world right now are Muslims fighting to impose their religious decrees upon local citizenry.

The main reason things are as they are in Iraq is that the religiously powerful DON'T WANT democracy because Islamic law can not be predominant in a democratic society.

ILJ · Oct 7, 2003

Shalom all,
Good post brother Son Worshipper,
In reading Ezekiel 38 it is talking about Gog, when we read Ezekiel 38:17 Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

First, Gog is not mentioned by name until Ezek. so we have to believe it is possibly a title for satan/antichrist that is spoken of by the prophets of old etc...and read the nations throughout Ezekiel, who are referred to.Psalm 83 as well.They are all Muslim.Some argue that Ethiopia is not. But actually from my understanding the term in Hebrew is Cush, and in the Old Testament generally to the south of Egypt in what we know Sudan.Sudan is of one of the most fundamentalist Islamic states.The Ethiopia of today is ancient Abyssinia.The ancient Ethiopia is in fact Sudan.So look who is with Gog, and ultimatley defeated.(see Psalm 83, Ezek,26(5) (3),ezek 26-30, Joel chapter 2,Isaiah 22 22:7-10,Isaiah 14, Isaiah 30:30-31, Micah 5,Isaiah 31(31:4).
There are many, many verses, and it is quite alot of material, so I will leave it here for now.Soon I will give a more specific version of some of views of those verses.If that's that's alright with the brothers and sisters here.I n a few weeks I will have a link for some very interesting views on this subject.

Shalom to all
In Him
ILJ

Lotuspetal_uk · Oct 16, 2003

SonWorshipper said:
What is the main purpose of Islam? We know that Muhammad was not the last prophet, but Yeshua was ( one of many things He was and is), so why the "need" for this? Confusion is one I can think of as well as perhaps jealousy on the part of the Ishmaelites? Wanting to have their own prophet?, but I think that this was inspired from the depths of Sheol, for their is one G-d and there is another who wants to be him and will try anything to lead others astray.

Hi SW,

Excellent post! I wish I was online when this was still freshly posted but having come back from vacation I thought I'd offer my own personal thoughts on this.

I personally feel that the purpose of it lies in our End Times. I was reading one of my husband's articles (he's a Muslim) on the Islamic version of the End Times. To summarise, it speaks of a time when the Muslims will be at their military peak, and they make an alliance with "a New Rome". The ultimate aim is that they destroy all Jews and Christians not alligned with them. When I considered the trials spoken of in Zech 14, Matt 24, Revelations etc... and you consider that in Islam their End Times seem a little too different to what Christ and the prophets before Him spoke about, I thought "which group could passionately carry out the tribulations spoken of and yet truly believe that what they are doing is just?"

What I read in my husband's collections disturb me because on the face of it (and certainly if one does not study the Bible), it does make one think that perhaps Muhammed was the final prophet, but.... when cross-referenced with the Word a whole different picture arises. On the one hand they write about respect for the other two faiths (Judaism and Christianity) and on the other they write about not trusting a Jew or Christian.

I pray that those in Islam who sincerely seek the Lord will be brought to Him but alas those driven by hate will merely be used as tools to bring about Messiah's return.

Just a little of my thoughts on this topic...

God bless

Dominus Fidelis · Oct 16, 2003

The difference between Islamic martyrs and early Christian martyrs is that the apostles died for what they SAW, not what they just believed.

Key point.

ILJ · Oct 19, 2003

One should note that some of the Muslims end time beliefs is that Yeshua will come back and brake the cross (destroy Christianity.) kill a pig, marry have children, die and be buried beside Muhammad!!!

One Muslim apologist writes: "We believe that Jesus peace be upon him will come down to earth toward the end of the world time to fight the army of Satan which will be mostly from the Jews and the decieved from the Christians.The army of Satan will be lead by a person who will claim to be Jesus Christ himself.The Muslims will call him the Dajjal or the Deceiver.The real Jesus army will fight the Dajjal's army and defeat him.The empire of Israel will fall, and the religion of Islam will prevail.The signs that will reveal to us the coming of Jesus(pbuh) are when the Jews do mischief, see Noble verses 5:64 from the Noble Qu'ran for more details." http://www.answering-christianity.com/que5.htm

Sahih Muslim, in documenting Islam's prophet Muhammad in book 40 Number 6985 confirms: Allah's apostle (pbuh) said: The last hour will not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews (Narrated by Abu Hurayah)
So Islam offers another "Final Solution" if you will in order to do Allah's will on earth.How could Allah then be the same God who in the Bible states things totally opposite?
It seems they are setting up for a massive deception and will follow one claiming to be Yeshua, but is against the Jews and Christians.

Shalom all
ILJ

simchat_torah · Oct 20, 2003

hmmm... P4I, what aspect of "witness" were you wanting sources on? "two or more" for a witness? the qualifications of a 'witness'? What it means to 'witness' in a spiritual sense?

please clarify.

Shalom achoti!
yafet.

SonWorshipper · Oct 20, 2003

Darling Simchat, you were up again way too late last night. :hug:

I ( Not P4I) was wanting to hear the Rabbinic "ruling" on witnesses, where in the eye witnessing of an event or action is required before the Beit Din.
What I was seeing was that HaSatan has practically destroyed those eyewitness accounts and their deaths because of what they attested to by invoking the followers of Islam to "die for their cause and their god". True, as Defens0rFidei said it is a key point about seeing and believing, but many miss that. I have seen others say that the Muslims believe their faith to be true and Muhhamud the last prophet by those that become martyrs for the "faith". When viewed by an unbeliever it doesn''t look any different than the Apostles dying for what they saw and attested to and what they believed, by living and seeing it.

I was hoping that you could add a little from Midrash maybe on attestation? After you get some much needed sleep that is!

SonWorshipper · Oct 20, 2003

WOW the L-rd is sure blessing me today! Praise Him! I was looking up some scriptures in Ezk and Isa and jsut turned to the books not the pages I wanted yet because I had two bibles side by side and I looked down at the one opened to Isaiah and saw this (I also shared this in another thread as well I will be in another, the L-rd is TOV! ) :clap:

Just came across this while looking up something else, the L-rd is good, and overwhelming me very much today!

Isaiah 44

6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.

8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have I not announced unto thee of old, and declared it? And ye are My witnesses. Is there a God beside Me? Yea, there is no Rock; I know not any.

The L-rd here points out who HE picked to be HIS witnesses of who HE IS, of OLD time, and it was not the decendants of Ishmael! The witnesses of who not only who He is but also Moshiach! Notice the "AND" in verse 61.I also find the mention of Rock, besides it's traditional meaning to maybe reference the "Dome of the Rock" or the rock from which the so called last prophet ascended from? :scratch:

Hmmmmmm.

Whoa! I am blown away by this! Halleluyah!!!!! :bow:

SonWorshipper · Oct 20, 2003

Lotus Petal, I would like to thank you for what you posted it sure helps to bring more understanding to this subject. My heart grieves for those children of Abraham that are being decieved and are not wanting to live in the tents of their younger brother. They are using the flesh tradition of first born rights but the l-rd uses the second born in spiritural matters.

Isaac over Ishmael
Jacob over Esau
Joseph over all his older brothers
and of course Yeshua the second Adam

The redemption comes through the second it seems.

LastMaxim · Oct 20, 2003

Lotuspetal_uk said:
...I was reading one of my husband's articles (he's a Muslim) ...

...apologies...this is off topic

...I was just thinking this must be an interesting household indeed...

a Baptist and a Muslim :scratch:

...wow, the conversations that must be had

...now back to your 'regularly scheduled programing'

...

Lotuspetal_uk · Oct 21, 2003

SonWorshipper said:
Lotus Petal, I would like to thank you for what you posted it sure helps to bring more understanding to this subject. My heart grieves for those children of Abraham that are being decieved and are not wanting to live in the tents of their younger brother. They are using the flesh tradition of first born rights but the l-rd uses the second born in spiritural matters.

Isaac over Ishmael
Jacob over Esau
Joseph over all his older brothers
and of course Yeshua the second Adam

The redemption comes through the second it seems.

SW, you are so welcome - I just wanted to also thank you for starting this thread. This has been something I have pondered about for quite a long time (but never had the guts to create a post).

In reference to your post immediately prior to the one I quoted, I read Gal 4:29 this morning while scanning another thread on CF and my heart began to 'burn' (no I don't suffer from heartburn

). I read your prior post refering to the Rock etc and it brought me back to Gal 4:29 which says:

"At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. IT IS THE SAME NOW."

This is indeed very thought provoking :scratch:

God bless

Lotuspetal_uk · Oct 21, 2003

LastMaxim said:
...apologies...this is off topic ...I was just thinking this must be an interesting household indeed... a Baptist and a Muslim ...wow, the conversations that must be had ...now back to your 'regularly scheduled programing' ...

Through the Grace of God, most days it's very interesting but it takes daily prayer on my part to keep the household harmonious. Though we use to have some real 'hum-dingers' of debates when I was newly saved. ^_^

But in a way, it's amazing where and how the Lord places you when I consider all the resources I have to hand in order to understand the religion a little and why some of its followers do what they do.

God bless

SonWorshipper · Oct 21, 2003

Lotuspetal_uk said:
SW, you are so welcome - I just wanted to also thank you for starting this thread. This has been something I have pondered about for quite a long time (but never had the guts to create a post).

In reference to your post immediately prior to the one I quoted, I read Gal 4:29 this morning while scanning another thread on CF and my heart began to 'burn' (no I don't suffer from heartburn ). I read your prior post refering to the Rock etc and it brought me back to Gal 4:29 which says:

"At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. IT IS THE SAME NOW."

This is indeed very thought provoking

God bless

Whoa! I never read it like that before. For those of you that are reading this and don't have access to a bible I am posting the whole part of the chapter, it is indeed very enlightening!

Galatians 4
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of thefreewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. ( ISHMAEL?)
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Could verse 27 be in reference to the widows of the martyr-bombers? who are left with many children, for they are left desolate.

I am happy to bring this out for discussion LP, I believe that the L-rd brings these things to mind and urges me to post them at His timing. This is a great discussion indeed and even more so with you joining in, again I thank you! :hug:

SonWorshipper · Oct 21, 2003

LP, I just thought of something you might be interested in, my Rabbi spoke of this awhile ago, we not only interceed for the children of Jacob but also the children of Ishmael for they too are the seed of Abraham. When he was speaking of Ishmael he showed us something that he had heard while reading or speaking his name.

Yi---Shma ----el Do you see it? in the middle of his name ( that the L-rd himself named him when he found Hagar in the desert when she had runaway ) Has the Hebrew word Shema in it. It means the L-rd hears, if only they would turn to the true L-rd he would hear them.

simchat_torah · Oct 22, 2003

Darling Simchat, you were up again way too late last night

story of my life.

Rabbinic "ruling" on witnesses, where in the eye witnessing of an event or action is required before the Beit Din.

ok, will do.

-yafet.

SonWorshipper · Oct 22, 2003

Tsk Tsk, even later this morning? Your time that is about 3-4 Am? Do you have insomnia? You are getting as bad as I used to be. I used to watch the sun come up.

Try some Chamomile tea, it really does work!

SonWorshipper · Oct 22, 2003

I was sharing this thread with my husband last night when he got home and read all of Galatians 4 to him and you know what, I got the biggest urge to send this part over to Ariel Sharon:

25 For this Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

What do you think, should I?

Islamic Terrorism ~ The real reason?

Old Timer

Faithful

Seeker of Messiah

Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai Echud! Al pi Adonai...

Active Member

Say 'CHEESE!!!!'

ScottBot is Stalking Me!

Active Member

Got Torah?

Old Timer

Old Timer

Old Timer

Soldier of Christ

Say 'CHEESE!!!!'

Say 'CHEESE!!!!'

Old Timer

Old Timer

Got Torah?

Old Timer

Old Timer

Similar threads