Originally posted by Augustine
...have mercy on us!
Immaculate Heart of Mary; Pray for us!
Where in the Bible does it say that Mary is also the mediator between men and God? As far as the TRUTH is concerned, "... there is ONE God and ONE mediator between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).
Apostle John wrote that "NO ONE has EVER seen God at ANY time" (John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12). Yet we know that apostle John and about 500 others (1 Cor. 15:6) SAW Jesus during his lifetime and when he ASCENDED to heaven (Acts 1:11). Was John LYING when John said "NO ONE has ever SEEN God at ANY time?
I think context is important here, as is reading things in the order they're presented.
St.John 1:18 refers to prior to the Incarnation, the context clearly being that Christ coming into the world, is revealing that previously "remote" Lord.
I don't see how context can hide the TRUTH that Jesus was seen by about 500 people AFTER God raised him from the dead and BEFORE he ascended to heaven. The Bible was NOT written in the same manner that ordinary books or magazines are written. That's what makes the word of God a mystery to those who are outside the BODY of Christ.
Apostle John wrote that no one has ever seen God at ANY TIME. Nowhere does it say that this statement refers to prior to what you call "incarnation." Hence, your statement is self-serving.
Apostle John also wrote that it was the only begotten son (Jesus) who revealed or made God known. If this were true, what God did Jesus reveal to apostle John and to the rest of the apostles? Did Jesus tell them that he is God?
On the contrary, he prayed to the FATHER (within hearing distance from John and the apostles) that "eternal life means knowing YOU (the Father), the ONLY true God and Jesus Christ whom the ONLY true God sent" (John 17:3). This verse is proven true by John 3:16 which states that God SENT his only begotten son into the world.
In addition, the earliest greek texts support the reading...
"No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Father's side, has revealed him." (St.John 1:18, NAB)
The NAB version of John 1:18 is a MISTRANSLATION. If it were true that the only son is God, then there would have been TWO Gods prior to Jesus' birth because John 3:16 says that God SENT his only son who the NAB version says is ALSO God.
This version does NOT conform with a lot of verses which say that there is ONLY ONE God (Isaiah 44:8; Isaiah 46:9; Isaiah 63:16; Isaiah 64:8; Psalm 100:3; Malachi 2:10; Eph. 4:6; 1 Cor. 8:6)
Granted without admitting that John 1:1 refers to the son of God (not Jesus) as the WORD that WAS God that BECAME a MAN (John 1:14) who was given the name Jesus, this still would NOT make the MAN Jesus God.
As for 1st John 4:12, it would seem it is your interpretation which wishes to pit Scripture against Scripture, rather than see the harmony that the sacred authors intended.
Obviously, you are the one interpreting 1 John 4:12 to seemingly make it conform to your belief that God CAN be seen metaphysically because of your belief that Jesus is God. The verse says "no one has SEEN God at any time." You say this is not a metaphysical statement. But this conforms with 1 Tim. 1:17 which says that God is INVISIBLE (cannot be seen) and I believe it because Jesus says "God is SPIRIT" (John 4:24) and WITHOUT flesh and bones (Luke 24:39).
Apostle John wrote that EVERYTHING he SAW and HEARD are TRUE (John 21:24). He HEARD Jesus SAY he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Did John TRULY hear Jesus SAY John 8:40 and John 17:3 or was Jesus LYING when he said he is a MAN and the FATHER is the ONLY true God?
Well the Lord Jesus also accepted worship (prostration, and the cry of being "My Lord and My God" in St.John 20:28, without offering any sort of correction), so obviously the sense of the above verses is not what you're making of them.
Are you saying that Jesus did NOT truly mean what he was saying? What do you make of John 8:40 and John 17:3 my friend? Does Jesus' acceptance of worship make his sayings false? Does Thomas saying "my God" make the statements of Jesus false? Remember John 1:18 which says that the only son of God revealed who God is? Is Thomas the only son of God?
Keep in mind, the Catholic Church (the one and only Church Christ established, and from which all sects and denominations are a schism from) has never taught that Christ is NOT truly a man.
For example, Christ is TRULY and REALLY a man. He in fact has a human soul, and even a human will; He is not simply a human looking mirage attached to a Divine Person. When Catholics talk about God becoming a man, they really mean it. Christ felt anguish, temptation, and pain. He felt hunger pains, and sleepiness.
If the Catholic Church is truly the one and only church that Christ established, why can't the Catholic Church believe what Jesus and the apostles taught about the FATHER being the ONLY true God (John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:6)?
You say that Catholics talk about God BECOMING a man. Do Catholics believe that: 1) there were originally TWO Gods until one God SENT one God to BECOME a man; or 2) there was ONE God who SENT another God from within himself and that God BECAME a man; or 3) there was ONE God who SENT 1/3 of himself to BECOME a man? The Bible teaches that God SENT His only begotten SON (John 3:16). It doesn't teach about God SENDING another God into the world.
John 1:14 says that the WORD that WAS God BECAME or WAS MADE flesh or man. If that WORD who WAS God BECAME man and was GIVEN the name Jesus, how can the MAN called Jesus be God.
While it is true that Jesus became the WORD of God AFTER he was born (God spoke through Jesus - Heb. 1:2 and everything Jesus said were commands of God - John 12:49), Jesus was NEVER the WORD of God BEFORE he was born.
Apostle John HEARD Jesus say that God is SPIRIT (John 4:24). Did John TRULY hear Jesus say this or was Jesus LYING?
Yes, and this unfathomable God, truly and really took a human nature upon Himself, without confusion or mixture between the two, but still in a hypostatic union. That in no way contradicts what you've just quoted. We say that particulars of Christ's human nature (or in toto) are attributable to God (thus you could accuratly say "God's face" when speaking of Jesus's face), by way of possession, not confusion of essence. That is to say, the physical visage of Christ's human nature, and His human nature period, are now proper to His Divine Person, because He has Chosen to assume them permanently, for our salvation.
Your explanation is hard to understand and unbelievable. At any rate, it does NOT explain how Jesus can be God despite his saying that "he is a MAN," "God is SPIRIT," and "a SPIRIT does not have flesh and bones as he has." The only explanation that makes sense would be to say that Trinitarians are telling the truth and Jesus was lying.
Apostle John HEARD from Mary Magdalene that Jesus calls them BROTHERS and to tel them that he (Jesus) is ASCENDING to HIS Father who is ALSO our Father and to HIS God who is ALSO our God (John 20:17). Did John HEAR Mary corectly or was Mary or Jesus LYING?
Nope. For the same reasons I mentioned above; in fact you're coming very close to an important part of the mystery of the Incarnation; WHY it happened in the first place. One big part was that Christ was joining Himself to humanity, by becoming like us...and in His sojourn through this valley of tears, that included becoming a servant among servants. Thus, why He prayed, why He suffered like us. Not because He had to...but He chose to.
What you are saying does NOT negate the TRUTH that Jesus has a God. And if Jesus is God and he has a God and Father, then wouldn't you say that there are TWO Gods?
Apostle Luke wrote that he HEARD Jesus say that a SPIRIT does NOT have FLESH and bones as he has (Luke 24:39). Did apostle Luke TRULY hear Jesus say this or was Jesus LYING?
Y'know, I'm beginning to wonder if you understand anything about context, or Christology for that matter. Not trying to insult you, just stating things as they plainly appear.
The Apostles thought they were seeing a ghost when they saw the Risen Lord. He was assuring them that He was in fact in tact, and gloriously so; He was risen from death.
The context doesn't have a thing to do with the point you're trying to make.
Sure the apostles thought that they were seing a ghost or spirit. Context or no context, a ghost or spirit does not have flesh and bones as Jesus has. Therefore, Jesus was NOT a ghost or spirit. Now let's look at the bigger CONTEXT my friend. Jesus says God is SPIRIT which he is NOT. Doesn't that tell you that Jesus is NOT God because he is flesh and bones?
Apostle Luke wrote that he SAW Jesus ATE broiled fish AFTER God raised him from the dead. Did apostle Luke TRULY see Jesus EATING broiled fish or was he LYING?
Uh, no. No one's lying...though I think someone is misrepresenting the import of sacred scripture...
Nobody is misrepresenting the import of sacred scripture. ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Tim. 3:6).
The fact that Jesus felt hungry and ATE broiled fish is PROOF that he is a MAN not God, even AFTER God raised him from the dead and he no longer had any reason to act like a man. Don't you know my friend that God does not get hungry?
As you can see my friends, the doctrine that Jesus is GOD makes the authors of the Bible OR Jesus LIARS! And if we say EITHER of them is a LIAR, then we are telling God that He is a LIAR because the Bible is God's word.
Does anyone here think this is good for the soul?
Ah, nothing like bullying/guilting your opponents into agreement. Sadly the only guilt they'd ever have would be in agreeing with your blasphemy.
Think about it hard my friend. Jesus says that anyone who does NOT believe him is CONDEMNED already (John 3:18). Jesus said he is a MAN (John 3:18) and the Father is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). You call believing this BLASPHEMY? Tsk! Tsk!
You have not proven your point, if anything I (let alone the other gazillion people who replied to you) have shown you simply don't understand what you're talking about.
Not to worry my friend. As Jesus said, "...difficult is the way which leads to life and there are few who find it" (Matt. 7:14).
Each of us is in possession of a will. God promises peace (and not worldly peace, but the peace of His Grace, and life ever lasting) to those who are of "good-will."
What you are saying is UNBIBLICAL. The Bible teaches that only those who believe Jesus shall have everlasting life (John 3:16). You may think you have "good-will" but you do NOT believe Jesus, the Bible says, you are CONDEMNED already (John 3:18).
Ed
LOVE
