Backsliding

Do Believe Backsliding Means

  • Fallen from Grace

  • Not measuring up

  • Turning from God

  • For Israel

  • Not sure


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aforchrist
yeah yeah sure. great excuse. didnt you say this was your ministry?

romans828
i heard what you called truth, i told you exactly why i do not agree. if i am in anyway wrong, then show me, as you should be able too.
youve posted absolutly nothing that proves me wrong. you post scripture, yes, i agree with all scripture.
but does it mean what you say it means? i dont think so. does that make me one who runs from truth? absolutely not, just diffrent.
keep talking to me, tell me why, i am trying to think through this as logicly as i can.
my foundations are scriptures, just as yours are.

jrmorganjr
i understand that jesus said that.
but at the same time, you must consider scriptures like HEBREWS 10.25-30
which talkes of sanctified men going back and trodding jesus underfoot even despite the grace of god and being in danger of HELL agian.
HEBREWS 6.4-6
which speaks of saved men who have deeply matured in god, yet going back on god and it says those cant even be renewed!
which means, you cant get them to come back to god. again, this is the choice of the person, nothing else. they simply wont decide to come back.
in many places we read of names being REMOVED FROM THE BOOK OF LIFE. in BOTH testaments.
i could go on and on.

so, jesus said you cant be pulled away, but we read over and over of men who SOMEHOW LOST IT, WENT ASTRAY, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT.
how does it fit together?

my conclusion is that NO YOU CANT BE PULLED OUT, BUT YOU CAN TROD JESUS UNDERFOOT YOURSELF. which is not being PULLED AWAY.
but you simply leaving and doing it all on your own accord.

i think a clear example is adam, he was made perfect, he knew god personally, and many other great things. yet, he had the choice to throw it all away. as i believe we do, and always will.

ALL OF YOU ANSWER ME THIS

DO I HAVE THE CHOICE TO WILLINGLY, OF MY OWN ACCORD, CAST AWAY MY SALVATION?
if not, show me why not.

THATS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT, APOSTACY, A PERSON WILLINGLY SAYING "JESUS I DONT WANT YOU IN MY LIFE ANYMORE, GET OUT!"
that is why i believe losing it is always an option.
not becuase you must work to keep it, or that it is hard to keep it at all.

i dont disagree simply becuase i dont want to, but that i simply do not see anything in scripture that means a person cant go back on god and willingly return to a hell bound life by their own choice.
i see scripture that clearly says men have done this, thus somehow it must be possible, i say its by our own choice. it must be by our choice becuase you are all correct in most of what you say, when you speak of jesus keeping you, preserving you, doing it all for you.
yet, somehow, the men im speaking of did end up in a state of godlessness AGAIN.
so, i say its our choice.

do you see how im really trying to use scripture? i really am! i dont simply want to believe this, but it is the only thing i see that truely harmonises with the entire bible.
i understand you have scriptures and reasons to believe what you do, but you seem to forget the rest of the bible, or just certain parts.
you have a half truth.
 
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jrmorganjr

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I understand your point, psalm 22.3. The easy answer that I'm not sure I believe is that they weren't really saved in the first place. The two passages you're talking about are really referring to Jewish converts who wanted to go back to sacrificing in the temple again. They didn't "get" that Jesus was the end all sacrifice and made the temple think obsolete. Perhaps it's the difference between "knowing the Gospel" and "being saved", but I want to think and read some more on this. I'm heading out for Easter for a few days away from computers, so it'll be a while.

Happy Easter to you!
 
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it doesnt really matter who it is talking too, jew, gentile, whoever. or their motives.
it says they were SANCTIFIED, PARTOOK OF THE HOLYGHOST, had been ENLIGHTENED, etc. they were saved, yet, went through a process to where they could willingly no longer be.
if they were jews doesnt change anything, what their motives were doesnt change anything. these people were saved becuase it says THEY WERE SANCTIFIED BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS.
you cant say
WELL JEWS CAN FALL AWAY BUT NOT GENTILES.
if these men could fall away, then anyone of us can as well.

you say the same as many others,
WELL THEY WERENT REALLY SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE.
how do you know? dont you sin? im sure you do.
if you can sin at all, as you do, then you can do ALL MANNER OF SIN. so, what someone does doesnt give evidence to say whether they were saved or not. it does show the heart, but we all go through times of losing heart and not being in line with the will of god, and grace covers that, it doesnt show whether or not your saved, it doesnt mean you are not saved.

many people demand evidence to prove your saved, but arent these the same people who preach such a grace defiled message that what you doesnt ever matter anyway?
then why demand evidence?
if you do say that it has nothing to do with works, then you should not look for evidence of works.
but be confident that the confession and faith have saved them to the uttermost.
yet, when, one falls, they say they werent really saved. WHY? THIS BAFFLES ME.

they fail to realise that even the greatest christians have to live with that old thing called the flesh that is constantly working agaisnt them and if given liberty, will tear god from your life.
the flesh lusteth agaisnt the spirit, and the carnal mind cannot do the will of god, and is hostil to god according to the bible.

we see the work of the flesh in the lives of fallen men, and people explain it as that they were never saved.

i read something profound this morning,
and i think it fully illustrates and endorses what i just said. and it isnt used very often, i like finding unusual scriptures, im like WHAO IVE NEVER SEEN THAT BEFORE!

1st cor 9.26-27
26.i therefore so run, not as uncertainly, SO FIGHT I, NOT AS ONE THAT BEATETH THE AIR.
(i run, not with second thoughts, so i fight, going for the knock out blow!)
27.but i KEEP my body and bring it under subjection: lest that by any means, when i have preached to others, I MYSELF SHOULD BE A CASTAWAY.

that word KEEP is actually misleading.
it is HUPOPIAZO. meaning to STRIKE UNDER THE EYE, TO BEAT BLACK AND BLUE.
he was going for the knockout blow, but he was talking about boxing agaisnt his own body, his flesh, beating it down, bringing it under subjection.
he said that if he didn't do this, then there was a chance that after he had preached and done all this great stuff, that he himself could be castaway!
the word CASTAWAY
is ADOKIMOS
or REPROBATE, REJECTED, CASTAWAY.
it means to become christless and literally castaway.
the flesh can remove you from the hand of god.
it is not someone pulling you from the hand of god as jesus said no one could, but the flesh is you, you giving in to your own lustful desires and choosing to leave the place of shelter, giving yourself over to damnation.
 
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i hope you have a wonderful easter.
i wont be on again for a while either.
by the time i am back, this thread will probly be long gone.
i am struggling with some issues in my life that i have struggled with for years, things i am to ashamed to simply tell everyone about.
they are spirit linked bondagdes that i know the devil has attacked me with because god intends to use me in a mighty way upon the earth, to save my dying people. and the devil wants to snuff it out, or atleast keep it inside me where it wont hurt him. this spirit of perversion and lust has beaten me down and ruled me for years, and im sick of it, it shames me, and i wont to be free.

the scripture god brings to me is
THIS KIND COMETH NOT OUT BUT BY PRAYER AND FASTING.
becuase all my attemps have failed. so i figure its time to try something new.

i am going on a 40 day seperation period.
jesus, moses, paul, many of my mentors from the bible had thier times of just getting away from the rest of the world, and getting before the lord, and not returning untill they were ready. and when they did return THEY GLOWED LIKE LIGHTENING AND THEY SHOOK THE GROUND THAT THEY WALKED UPON! becuase their had been a divine transfer, where god removes what is yours and replaces it with what is his. he removes your weakness in your flesh, and replaces it with the almightiness of the holyspirit!

so, i am leaving for a while. and one day i will return. i am simply going to maximise my time to be with the lord.
giving myself to fasting and prayer, and with as little coming and going as i can. abiding in his presence for as long as possible.
happy easter, Godbless you.
 
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I have to agree with Psalms 22.3

The scriptures must harmonize. If they don't harmonize then we have wrongly divided the word. Their must be no contridictions. If their seems to be contridictions then we need to rethink our theology. I beleive that the scriptures clearly show that a person of their own choice can turn away from God. Faith made shipwreck. Draw back unto perdition.

Let's not ignore parts of the bible or spend hours trying to rationalize parts that don't fit our theology. I've heard the answers from the OSAS camp. They have these long and drawn out explannations for scriptures that contridict OSAS.

By the way, it is pretty hard for some one to turn away from God, but never the less, it is possible.
 
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our choice is what applied the power of god to lives in the first place isnt it?
it certainly is.

no our choices do not affect the amount of power god has.
but yes it does determine whether or not we are in the place to receive it, or have it effect us.

our place with god, determines what we obtain from god.
if we deny christ, we deny the power of christ the right of working in our lives becuase we are disqualifying ourselves from the promises of god, by refusing him, thus refusing to allow him to effect our lives.

humility and submission come before blessing, you must lower yourself, obey, enter the place of blessing before you can be blessed.
you must COME TO JESUS before jesus can effect your life.

IF YOU WILL ABIDE WITH CHRIST HE WILL ABIDE WITH YOU.
but we can see that it is our choice of abiding with him, that allows him to abide with us.

it is the same as the athiest would ask,
"how is there a god, if there are so many dying people is this world?"
simply the fact that yes there is a god, yet you receiving from him is determined by the state of your relationship with him.
like soap, soap does clean your body, yet you standing next to it does not clean you, you must have a relationship, an encounter, an experience, an interaction, an activity with the soap before the soap can effect you.

did i explain this clearly enough?

the power of god is not changed by men, but mens choices determine whether or not it is effectual in their lives.

i decided to check the forum, i dont think i went back on my
commitment, though i will be on here less than normal.
 
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Dalexsi

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This is a subject near to my heart, so as this is my very first post on this forum, I'll go ahead and dive right in!
I've been born again for 6 years, but I can't really count three of those years as I had turned my back on God and went my own way. Let me say that at the time I turned away I was absolutely sure and said to God that I never wanted anything to do with him again.
I didn't stop believing in him; although I often tried to deny the truth. I simply wanted to be in charge of my own life again--like somehow I thought I could run things better! :(
After three years, God drew me back to him and here I stand today; shaky sometimes, but exactly where God wants me to be.
I believe that God is so much bigger than what we think, I believe that a person can turn their back on God but does God give up on that person? I don't think so. If God is constantly calling unbelievers to repentance, how much more so his own children?
So no I don't believe a person can "lose" their salvation; if they could how would they ever get it back? The bible doesn't say we can be born again multiple times. It's possible to lose fellowship but once a child of God, always a child of God.

Anyway, it's good to be here and I look forward to many lively conversations!
Thank you!
Dawn :wave:
 
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dear Christi,
thank you so very much, im glad to hear that you care so much for me. thank you, you will surely be blessed for your sacrifice and work! thank you! its good to hear from people with caring hearts, i am so grateful. love you.
my name is LEE MYERS. what is yours? do you use AIM?
my username is DARETOBELEIVE. i know it isnt spelled correctly, i hope i get to know you more.

dalexsi
well, i will not attack your testimony, i know it is close to your heart, it would be so very wrong to do such a thing and hurt you.
yes, it is a great story of the grace of god! how wonderful to hear your testimony. it is a blessing, we cant go to far!
the blood of jesus is so wonderful!

i agree, the lords grace lasts forever! amen! its just that i believe it is possible for one to leave the lord, as you did at first, and then, never return.
LOSING SALVATION, is not GOD NOT LOVING YOU ANYMORE. IT IS NOT GRACE FAILING, I DONT THINK IT IS ANYTHING ON THE PART OF GOD.
i think it is simply the decison made by a person to willfully forsake the lord and never return.
like BLASPHEMING THE HOLYSPIRIT.
to speak malicously agaisnt him.
it is an outright remark or action agaisnt him, attacking him.

like in hebrews 6.4
it says they cant be renewed back to god.
it doesnt mean god isnt trying to save them, it doesnt mean god doesnt love them, it doesnt grace is no longer present.
it means
that YOU CANT RENEW THEM BACK, you cant get them to come back to god becuase they have willingly thrown jesus down and stomped on him or tred him under their feet.
it is the choice of the person to no longer have anything to do with god.

i dont understand how a person would ever want to do this, but i truely believe it is possible, because we are
free-will agents.
 
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Dalexsi

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Psalms 22.3--thanks so much for your kind reply! I really appreciate your thoughtfulness; this issue can be divisive and sometimes people can be unkind. I haven't seen that here though, and that's very encouraging for me.

like in hebrews 6.4 it says they cant be renewed back to god. it doesnt mean god isnt trying to save them, it doesnt mean god doesnt love them, it doesnt grace is no longer present. it means that YOU CANT RENEW THEM BACK, you cant get them to come back to god becuase they have willingly thrown jesus down and stomped on him or tred him under their feet. it is the choice of the person to no longer have anything to do with god.

I haven't thought of this verse in that way before but it definitely makes sense and I'll have to think more on it. I think that for these people; only God knows whether or not the person will ever come back and repent, so we as Christians should be there to support and help the person and not condemn. (Sorry, my own issues coming through here! sounds like I need to forgive!)
:D
 
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LouisBooth

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"our choice is what applied the power of god to lives in the first place isnt it?
it certainly is. "

Wow, so God doesn't already know? Umm..wrong-o!! Try reading romans. Its God that is the author of our faith, not us.

"the power of god is not changed by men, but mens choices determine whether or not it is effectual in their lives. "

hmm..so what about pharro being hardened..? I can name a few others to make you think. God's plan is independant of us. That is why the very rocks would cry out if we didn't.
 
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dalexsi
i hope i have helped you, not that i am fit to help anyone, NOT I BUT THE GRACE OF GOD! im am glad that you were pleased with my reply. i hope i have done something to help you come closer to all truth, as we all need to come closer to that.

LouisBooth
the fact that rocks would cry out if we dont, proves we do not have to and that god will not make us and that he doesnt know if we will or not.

in romans it says that WE BELIEVE AND CONFESS TO BE SAVED.
TO, IT IS US DOING THOSE 2 THINGS THAT BRINGS US UNTO SALVATION. the lord doesnt force anyman.

this day i set before you life and death, CHOOSE life.
that was a command given to people whom had the ability to respond in their own way, and did.
and it makes clear the fact that WE HAVE THE ABILITY WITHIN US TO CHOOSE OUR OWN DESTINY! TO CHOOSE LIFE, OR DEATH. HEAVON OR HELL.

isaiah 3.13
the lord standeth up to PLEAD, and standeth to JUDGE the people.

if the lord would plead with someone, then it is their choice that determines, if not, then there would be no need to plead.
if the lord would judge someone who HAD NO CHOICE in the matter AS YOU SAY, then god is not a just god, for he punished someone for HIS OWN SIN. if it is not us that chooses god, then it also not us that chooses sin, THEN IT IS GOD THAT SINS BY CONTROLLING US TO SIN.

what you teach is simply unbelievable.
yes god does do SOME things to SOME people, most of the time TO SIMPLY FULLFILL PROPHECY OR HIS WORD. but i do not think it he will OVERRIDE THEIR OWN DESIRE.
i believe that was in the pharoahs heart already. he had already took them captive held them under bondagde anyway. i see no reason to believe that he would have desired to let them go anyway.
yet i admit, i do not really understand all of that situation.

in 2 tim 2.4 it clearly states that IT IS GODS WILL FOR ALL HUMANITY TO BE SAVED AND COME TO THE KNOWLEGDE OF THE TRUTH.
yet it is undeniable that that has not happened and never will.
so, GOD CANNOT BE CONTROLLING US.

THIS DEALS WITH PREDESTINATION.
(these will be my own thoughts, im not sure anyone knows everything about it)i do not claim this as any dogmatic docrine or the way of god.

the lord predestines ALL TO BE SAVED. his predestination is simply his desire or hope for us. it is what he first choose for us to do.
predestination does not CONTROL THE CHOICE MADE BY THE PERSON. it is the choice of the man TO CHOOSE to obey what the LORD HAS ALREADY PREDESTINED.
 
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LouisBooth

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"the fact that rocks would cry out if we dont, proves we do not have to and that god will not make us and that he doesnt know if we will or not. "

No, it is a testiment that God will be praised regardless of what we do. His plan will be successful with or without us.


"yes god does do SOME things to SOME people, most of the time TO SIMPLY FULLFILL PROPHECY OR HIS WORD. "

yup, so who are we to know which times he does it. He does overide desires..look at Pharro..it is a perfect example.

"predestination does not CONTROL THE CHOICE MADE BY THE PERSON. "

Okay, lets start there....What does it take to be saved? Faith right? Okay, who is the founder of your faith..hint..its not you. :)
 
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DID YOU NOT READ MY ENTIRE POST?
YOU PICKED CERTAIN LITTLE STATEMENTS THAT YOU DIDNT AGREE ON, AND SEEM TO HAVE FORGOTTEN THE REASONS I USED TO BACK THEM.

LOOK AT WHAT YOU YOURSELF HAVE SAID!
"No, it is a testiment that God will be praised regardless of what we do. His plan will be successful with or without us."
WITH OR WITHOUT US
(if you are correct) THEN
THAT PROVES THAT GODS PLAN DOES NOT CONTROL YOU. he certainly does not.
god will find away, he will always be able to fix things, he will fullfill his word.
but no HE DOES NOT CONTROL YOU.

DIDNT YOU READ MY EXPLANATION OF PHARAOH BEING HARDENED?

it surely is faith, i agree.
jesus is the author and finisher of my faith.
does that mean that GOD MAKES ME HAVE FAITH?
NO!
it means that my faith IS IN HIM! IT CAN BE NO WHERE ELSE!
ONLY HE PROVIDES ME A WAY TO EFFECTUAL FAITH, AND ONLY HE CAN FULLFILL OR FINISH THE PURPOSE OF MY FAITH!

the word AUTHOR goes back to the greek word ARCHEGOS
it means CHEIF LEADER.
AUTHOR, CAPTAIN, PRINCE.
like, HE IS OUR LEADER, HE IS THE ONE WE TRUST IN, HE IS THE ONE THAT LEADS US. WE CANT GO ANYWHERE HE DOESNT GO.
we are dependant upon him!

not that god LIKE AN AUTHOR WRITES FAITH ON OUR HEARTS AND MAKES US HAVE FAITH. he certainly does not.
jesus said over and over
IF YOU HAVE FAITH, IF ANYMAN HAS FAITH, DO YOU BELIEVE,
IF, IF, IF,
ALWAYS LEAVING IT UP TO US! to have faith ourselves.
god never once SPOKE FAITH INTO ANYONES LIFE, MADE ANYONE HAVE FAITH. he never created faith within the person.
he went to his home town and WAS REJECTED BY HIS OWN PEOPLE BECUASE THEY DID NOT BELIEVE HIM, when they asked questions like ISNT THIS THE SAME JESUS THAT WEVE KNOWN FOR SO LONG?
(i know that isnt a quote but a paraphrase)

if jesus encountered people who didnt believe, then how do you think that GOD MAKES PEOPLE BELIEVE?

do you think that god already knows who will and who will not? if you do, thats not what you said anyway, you said that he makes people have faith, WHY DIDNT THIS MAKER OF FAITH PUT FAITH INTO THE LIVES OF THESE UNBELIEVING MEN?
was god purposing them to die the second death?
NOT THE GOD THAT WROTE 2 TIM 2.4
THE ONE THAT WANTS ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND COME UNTO THE TRUTH.

duet 32.20
some people have no faith.
mat 6.30
some people have little faith
1cor 13.2
some people have all faith
(it is the choice of the person)

1tim 6.12
you have to fight to keep your faith
1pet 5.9
you must resist and be stedfast in your faith
jude 3
you must contend or fight for your faith
jude 20
you must build yourself up in faith
(how then is your faith created and kept in you by god)

1tim 4.1
some shall depart from the faith
1 tim 5.8
you can deny the faith
1tim 5.12
you can cast off your faith
1tim 6.10
you can err from the faith
2tim 2.18
your faith can be overthrown
2tim 4.7
you must keep the faith
tit 1.13
you must be sound in the faith
james 1.3
your faith can be tried, it may fail.
(how then does god make you have faith? if he made it in you, then he would keep it in you as well, and he does not)

IF YOU READ ALL THOSE SCRIPTURES, HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY BELIEVE THAT GOD MAKES PEOPLE HAVE FAITH AND KEEPS THEM IN FAITH?
 
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LouisBooth

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"does that mean that GOD MAKES ME HAVE FAITH?
NO! "

I think you want to eat your cake and have it too..its not possible. If he is the creator of our faith as said in the scriptures, we have no part in its creation. You can't have it both ways. :)

"he certainly does not. "

Then why is it stated that God ALONE causes people to seek him in scripture. He predestines people. That's what the docterine states. the end point is made, the path is not.

"duet 32.20
some people have no faith.
mat 6.30
some people have little faith
1cor 13.2
some people have all faith
(it is the choice of the person) "

No..for it is stated that God gives each person in measure to them. He gives them the faith according to who they are. See the parables :)


"do you think that god already knows who will and who will not? "

Yes, he does, for that is written. If he does not that also says that God is NOT all-knowing. He is in the future, he knows already what's gonna happen. He knows it right now. He knows who is saved, even before time began.

Your example about Jesus is flawed. Jesus had human limiations in knowledge. He himself states he only knows and does what the father told him. So He didn't know. Could he have know? Yup, but then he wouldn't be humbling himself and be submissive to the father.

"IF YOU READ ALL THOSE SCRIPTURES, HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY BELIEVE THAT GOD MAKES PEOPLE HAVE FAITH AND KEEPS THEM IN FAITH?"

context ;) would you like me to show you those verses in context of the passage and how they support what I have said?
 
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i have NO trouble stating
"does that mean that GOD MAKES ME HAVE FAITH?
NO!"
i am not struggling over anything.
it is as plain as day to me. didnt you read my explanation?
and it is so very easy on my conciense.

jesus christ is the beggining of our faith because ONLY IN HIM CAN WE HAVE FAITH. WITHOUT HIM THERE IS NO FAITH. there is nothing to have faith in without him.
i do not believe he puts faith into people, and i never will.

he does seek us first, we are dead in sin and can do no good, we dont even desire to do good but evil, so he seeks us first. he comes into our lives and enables us to seek him in return, but no i do not think he makes anyone seek him or makes anyone have faith or makes anyone do anything for that matter.
HE DOES NOT PREDESTINATE PEOPLE IN THE SENSE THAT YOU UNDERSTAND THE WORD.
he doesnt control people, that isnt in scripture.
free-will clearly shows that he does not.
i already explained to you what predestination meant.
you didnt even reply about it, as you do very little of what i say actually.

THE END POINT IS MADE? THE PATH IS NOT?
well, i read in 2 tim 2.4 (ill say it as often as needed)
that he wills for ALL MEN TO BE SAVED.
yet, ARE ALL MEN SAVED?
NO! so, evidently, they didnt go to END YOU THINK GOD MAKES US GO TO. SO WHETHER YOU THINK SO OR NOT, GOD DIDNT MAKE THEM HAVE FAITH. so, your saying god sent them to hell. becuase you say god makes us seek him, and if god didnt make them seek him, then you are saying that god knew they were destined to go to hell and simply didnt care enough to help them!

IT CLEARLY SAYS
"children in whom is NO faith!" duet 32.20
that scripture is true, if youll go read it.
yes god does GIVE all men faith, but do they accept it?
do they keep it? that changes everything.

NO it is not written.
and no him being omniscient doesnt mean he knows what the free-will agent will choose before he does.
though we would have to start an entire new thread to get into that. he is in the future? ive heard that a lot, but i dont understand why people believe it.

my reference to jesus does what i entended it to do.
it shows that SOME PEOPLE have faith SOME PEOPLE DO NOT. AND THAT JESUS KNEW THERE WAS NO GUARANTEE THAT THEY HAD IT, AS THERE WOULD BE IF GOD MADE US HAVE FAITH.
does god give all men faith? yes, do all accept it or use it? the mans choice is not determined.
if god puts faith in all men, then there would be no reason for jesus to have asked those questions. whether he knew everything or not. becuase he would have known that god puts faith in all men, and that those men had it. if YOU know god does that, certainly jesus WHO KNEW MORE ABOUT GOD THEN ANYONE EVER DID OR WILL would have known it as well.

IF GOD PUTS FAITH IN PEOPLE. then i guess HE CHOSE FOR THE ONES WHO DONT HAVE FAITH TO GO HELL? becuase he didnt put faith in them.
GOD DOESNT DO THAT! GOD DOESNT HAVE PLEASURE IN THE DESTRUCTION OF THE WICKED. thats clearly stated in ezekeil, and i dont have to tell you what 2 tim 2.4 says again do i?

go right ahead. show me anything you can, you are yet to show me anything from scipture that even hints at what you believe.

so, you honestly believe that god makes people go to hell?
if you think god MAKES PEOPLE HAVE FAITH, MAKES PEOPLE SEEK HIM, HARDENS PEOPLE AGAISNT THEIR WILL. IS IN CONTROL OF EVERYTHING,
then yes you are saying that god makes people go to hell.
and, i dont even feel like debating with you anymore. that is so twisted and terrible. i am so glad i wasnt raised the way you were, or had whatever influence it was that you had.

i once had a friend who was struggling over being a christian or not. she had a friend who was buddist who died. and she said she was not a christian becuase if she accepted christianity then, then that would mean that her friend WAS BURNING IN A FIERY HELL! her friend, whom she loved dearly.
it was so hard talking to her, i know what is true, but yet i do understand the heartache inside her AND I DIDNT WANT TO HURT HER EVEN MORE BY PREACHING SOME HORRIFIC MESSAGE THAT GOD ENTENDED THAT TO HAPPEN!. it is reasonable for one to feel such sorrow. your not human if you deny it.

i am so glad she never spoke with you.
becuase all you could possibly tell her is that GOD MEANT FOR THAT HAPPEN! YOUD HAVE TO TELL HER THAT GOD SENT HER FRIEND WHOM SHE LOVED TO A BURNING HELL!
she, even as human and corruptible as she was, felt sorrow and grief at the destruction of her friend. so deeply that it caused a great struggle deep within her, that im not sure she is over yet.
if lowely evil humans feel such pain and sorrow at the death of others.
how much more pain and sorrow does MY HOLY GOD, MY WONDERFUL FATHER, IN WHOM I KNOW IS UNCONDITIONAL LOVE, feel?
he must be hurting so much more deeply.

i dont even want to think about the kind of god you believe in.
please, for the sake of the rest of the church and lost souls, dont go witnessing. no one would want to believe in your god.
 
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LouisBooth

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"i do not believe he puts faith into people, and i never will.
"

Then you're not believing in scripture. Ephesians 2:8 says that faith is a gift from God and not of ourselves.

"IF GOD PUTS FAITH IN PEOPLE. then i guess HE CHOSE FOR THE ONES WHO DONT HAVE FAITH TO GO HELL? "

This is a faulty statement. I don't believe in DOUBLE predesenation but I do believe in predesination.

"MAKES PEOPLE HAVE FAITH, MAKES PEOPLE SEEK HIM, HARDENS PEOPLE AGAISNT THEIR WILL. IS IN CONTROL OF EVERYTHING, "

Each one of those is scriptural. have faith? Gal 2:8 makes peole seek him? It is also written that those he calls will answer him. Hardens people? Pharro is a prime example.

"i am so glad she never spoke with you"

I'm treating you as a mature christian, should I not? I wouldn't talk this way to a nonbeliever..this is the WORKSHOP not the roundtables.
 
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Louis
Eph. 2:8 does not say what you say it says. The gift that is of God is not faith, it is salvation.

Amplified Bible Eph2:8
For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourlelves-of your own doing, it came not through your own striving-but it is the gift of God

Your ideas of predestination kills any free will on man's part.

All man is predestined to be in Christ from the foundations of the world if we make a free will choice to have faith in Christ. Their are some, like Pharoah, who God chose to be vessels of wrath. These will never go to heaven. Still, we are predestined to walk as christians through faith if we choose.
 
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